Years

[Marco19]

Dear witnesses,

My question is out of curiosity.
What the following years means for you?

1799
1873
1874
1876
1914
1925
1975

I wonder which of the above still are valid dates with important events,
thanks in advance

 

[savagewind]

I was a Jehovah's Witness for almost twenty years. I did not know any of these dates until I ventured onto the internet. Current Jehovah's Witnesses will not view publishing these dates benignly.

 

[Pegg]

Dear witnesses,

My question is out of curiosity.
What the following years means for you?

1799
1873
1874
1876
1914
1925
1975

I wonder which of the above still are valid dates with important events,
thanks in advance

1914 marks the end of the gentile times and the beginning of Christs enthronement in heaven. This is the only date that we hold as highly significant for mankind in relation to Christ.

 

[Marco19]

1914 marks the end of the gentile times and the beginning of Christs enthronement in heaven. This is the only date that we hold as highly significant for mankind in relation to Christ.

may i know how? which calculations brought that date to be the beginning of the heavenly throne?

 

[Pegg]

may i know how? which calculations brought that date to be the beginning of the heavenly throne?

it is the combination of a few prophecies

You will find the explanation from the ONLINE WATCHTOWER LIBRARY

 

[Marco19]

it is the combination of a few prophecies

You will find the explanation from the ONLINE WATCHTOWER LIBRARY

Please correct if i am mistaken, the link above explains the date NOT the way as Russel tried to, so if my understanding is correct, then may i ask who or when this new way of explanation has published?
was it the time of Rutherford or Knorr or it came later?

From October 607 B.C.E. to October 1 B.C.E. is 606 years. Since there is no zero year, from October 1 B.C.E. to October 1914 C.E. is 1,914 years. By adding 606 years and 1,914 years, we get 2,520 years

Since the explanation above doesn't mention anything about the age of creation, my other question would be, do you have a concrete date when Adam was created?

Thanks again

 

[Pegg]

Please correct if i am mistaken, the link above explains the date NOT the way as Russel tried to, so if my understanding is correct, then may i ask who or when this new way of explanation has published?
was it the time of Rutherford or Knorr or it came later?

Hi Marco,

the explanation above is the one given by Brother Russell. He used the Daniel/Ezekiel/Revelation prophecies to determine that 1914 would mark the 'end of the gentile times'....it was due to the 1914 calculation that he mistakenly believed the end of the world would come in that year.

While his expectations were wrong, his calculation has remained intact in our organization....we are still 100% convinced that Jesus began to rule in heaven in 1914 and we still preach that date as significant for that reason.

Since the explanation above doesn't mention anything about the age of creation, my other question would be, do you have a concrete date when Adam was created?

Thanks again

the year of Adams creation is known through bible chronology...the bible books of genesis lists the generations born to Adam through his son Seth.

4026bce is the year of Adams creation....you will find the chronology in our Insight on the scriptures

 

[Marco19]

the explanation above is the one given by Brother Russell. He used the Daniel/Ezekiel/Revelation prophecies to determine that 1914 would mark the 'end of the gentile times'....it was due to the 1914 calculation that he mistakenly believed the end of the world would come in that year.

While his expectations were wrong, his calculation has remained intact in our organization....we are still 100% convinced that Jesus began to rule in heaven in 1914 and we still preach that date as significant for that reason.

Hello Pegg,

may i know when and where the above calculation first published by Russel?
because i have another version of calculation by Russel, concluding with the year 1914 but in a different manner.

Thanks in advance

 

[Pegg]

Hello Pegg,

may i know when and where the above calculation first published by Russel?
because i have another version of calculation by Russel, concluding with the year 1914 but in a different manner.

Thanks in advance

we have a book of the history of our organization...in there it explains that before the Watchtower was published by Russell, he became acquainted with another christian by the name of Nelson Barbour who was the producer of a periodical called 'Herald of the Morning'
Nelson Barbour was an Adventist who believed that Christ had already begun to rule in 1878....when Bro Russell read the magazine he accepted that Christ was already ruling and he also accepted the date of 1914 given by Barbour as true.

But there were many christians from different denominations who had also come to the year 1914 as a date for the end of the gentile times and the various opinions all contributed to brother Russells understanding. Our JW history book explains the following:

As early as 1823, John A. Brown, whose work was published in London, England, calculated the “seven times” of Daniel chapter 4 to be 2,520 years in length. But he did not clearly discern the date with which the prophetic time period began or when it would end. He did, however, connect these “seven times” with the Gentile Times of Luke 21:24. In 1844, E. B. Elliott, a British clergyman, drew attention to 1914 as a possible date for the end of the “seven times” of Daniel, but he also set out an alternate view that pointed to the time of the French Revolution. Robert Seeley, of London, in 1849, handled the matter in a similar manner. At least by 1870, a publication edited by Joseph Seiss and associates and printed in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, was setting out calculations that pointed to 1914 as a significant date, even though the reasoning it contained was based on chronology that C. T. Russell later rejected.


Russell never claimed the calcuations as his own and always gave Barbour and others credit for the chronologies he used in his publications. In the early issues of the Watch Tower, such as the ones dated December 1879 and July 1880, showed the he viewed 1914 C.E. asa highly significant year and in 1889 the entire fourth chapter of Volume II of Millennial Dawnwas devoted to a discussion of “The Times of the Gentiles” which was to come to an end in 1914.

The issue was not the dates or calculations...rather it was the events that would occur when the year 1914 was reached. Russell believed that it would see an end to wickedness and the restoration of the paradise as foretold in the scriptures. It was only after 1914 that they adjusted their view of how events at that time would unfold, but the dates and the way of calculating those dates remained the same....and they are still the same today.

 

[Marco19]

Hello Pegg,
Thank you for your respond.

Let me first clarify an issue which i have mentioned earlier but may be wasn't clear enough.
the purpose of my question is NOT to prove or disprove if Russel believed/accepted 1914 or he was false because he belived that that year is the end of the world,
but rather my interst is to know which calculation did he use? and why it's not the same as JW calculation of the present days?

from your provided two sources, i have found the following:

ONE: WT 1879 December
----------------
The weddeing guest p4,5
This doubtless refers primarily to the restoration of the earthly Jerusalem during thirty-seven years,or from 1878 to 1914, which,according to the prophetic arguments, is the last halfof the sounding of the seventh trumpet. But there are two Jerusalems-an earthly and a heavenly; a mountthat could be touched, and a mountZion that could not be touched. (Heb. xii:18, 22) \Ye believe these are related to each other; the one outward and Jewish,the other inward and Christian;and that both are to be built up during the same period,"the last trump." According to the parables of the "two dispensations,"Christ was due to enter or come into the office of king in the spring of 1878, the parallelof his riding into Jerusalem in fulfillment of "behold thy kingcometh;" and the same king who has the power to restore the natural Jerusalem, has the power to build up the spiritual Jerusalem

Two: WT 1880 July
------------
Your Redemption Draweth Nigh p1
Most of our readers are perhaps aware that our understanding of the wordleads us to the conclusion that "The time of trouble" or"Day of wrath,"coveringthe forty years from 1874 to 1914 is in two parts or of two kinds: first a time of trouble upon the church during which she (the nominal church) willfall from herpresent position of influence and respect withthe world,and manywillfall from truth and from faith.

The Closing Work p2,3
We speak of His coming or manifestationas Bridegroom and Reaper between the Autumn of 1874 and the Spring of 1878, in the same sense as He was so spoken of during the three years and a half between His baptism and His entry into Jerusalem as King. His coming as Bridegroom was first expected and recognized by the watchers,and His work as Reaper afterward seen.

The closing work part2 p3
the age and harvest extend to 1914, covering a space of forty years from the Spring of 1875.

I wonder what do you think about the above comments by Russel? are they still valid? or do you consider them part of some of his mistakes?

i may add some other comments later after finishing reading your provided third source,
but if you don't mind, we can start with the above, because they are inter-connected with each other,

Thanks in advance

 

[Pegg]

Hello Pegg,
Thank you for your respond.

Let me first clarify an issue which i have mentioned earlier but may be wasn't clear enough.
the purpose of my question is NOT to prove or disprove if Russel believed/accepted 1914 or he was false because he belived that that year is the end of the world,
but rather my interst is to know which calculation did he use? and why it's not the same as JW calculation of the present days?

he was using the calculations of Nelson Barbour... in the August, September, and October 1875 issues of Herald of the Morning, Barbour used chronology compiled by Christopher Bowen, a clergyman in England, to identify the start of the Gentile Times with King Zedekiah’s removal from kingship as foretold at Ezekiel 21:25, 26, and he pointed to 1914 as marking the end of the Gentile Times.

This chronology is still considered correct by JW's and we still use it to identify when the gentile times ended.
From 607bce (when king Zedekiah was removed as king in jerusalem) until Oct 1914 was the period known as the 'appointed times of the nations' (gentile times) and when they ended, Christ became enthroned as king.

That is still our teaching.
The only difference is that Russel and others, thought that when the gentile times came to an end, Christ would establish peace on earth and begin to rule over the nations. That is why they were preaching that the end of the system would come in 1914.

What they later came to realise was that 1914 would not only mark the end of the gentile times, but also that it would mark the beginning of the 'last days' (the short period of time before Christ takes action)

from your provided two sources, i have found the following:

ONE: WT 1879 December
----------------
The weddeing guest p4,5
This doubtless refers primarily to the restoration of the earthly Jerusalem during thirty-seven years,or from 1878 to 1914, which,according to the prophetic arguments, is the last halfof the sounding of the seventh trumpet. But there are two Jerusalems-an earthly and a heavenly; a mountthat could be touched, and a mountZion that could not be touched. (Heb. xii:18, 22) \Ye believe these are related to each other; the one outward and Jewish,the other inward and Christian;and that both are to be built up during the same period,"the last trump." According to the parables of the "two dispensations,"Christ was due to enter or come into the office of king in the spring of 1878, the parallelof his riding into Jerusalem in fulfillment of "behold thy kingcometh;" and the same king who has the power to restore the natural Jerusalem, has the power to build up the spiritual Jerusalem

Two: WT 1880 July
------------
Your Redemption Draweth Nigh p1
Most of our readers are perhaps aware that our understanding of the wordleads us to the conclusion that "The time of trouble" or"Day of wrath,"coveringthe forty years from 1874 to 1914 is in two parts or of two kinds: first a time of trouble upon the church during which she (the nominal church) willfall from herpresent position of influence and respect withthe world,and manywillfall from truth and from faith.

The Closing Work p2,3
We speak of His coming or manifestationas Bridegroom and Reaper between the Autumn of 1874 and the Spring of 1878, in the same sense as He was so spoken of during the three years and a half between His baptism and His entry into Jerusalem as King. His coming as Bridegroom was first expected and recognized by the watchers,and His work as Reaper afterward seen.

The closing work part2 p3
the age and harvest extend to 1914, covering a space of forty years from the Spring of 1875.

I wonder what do you think about the above comments by Russel? are they still valid? or do you consider them part of some of his mistakes?

These comments show his expectation in the years leading up to 1914. As i explained above, he believed that the beginning of Christs rule in 1914 would be when all the events of restoration would unfold. But at that time, they did not take into account the prophecies about the 'last days'.... the last days were foretold as a time of trouble for the earth.

In Revelation 12: 7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”

the above prophecy was not fully understood...but when the events of 1914 proved to be an all out war on earth and the death of millions of people, the bible students came to realise that before Christ established his kingdom over all the nations, a time of great trouble would come. This is the time period known as the 'last days' spoken of in Matthew 24 where Jesus described the 'sign' of his presence.
Matthew 24:3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” 4 And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.


But just to reiterate, the calculation for 1914 as given by Barbour was still (and is still) being used. We still believe that Christ began ruling in heaven in 1914...the only difference is that we now know that we must go through the 'short period of time', as mentioned in Revelation 12, before Christ brings peace earthwide.

 

[Marco19]

Dear Pegg,

he was using the calculations of Nelson Barbour... in the August, September, and October 1875 issues of Herald of the Morning

OK, i did, so now again i need to ask you about some years which Barbour believed to be very important:

For instance on the August issue, under the title "Chronology the end of the Jewish year"
he mentioned that the year 1873 is the end of the Jewish year
by the way this is not only his believe, Russel did so, now i can't recall where, but if you need i can search for it.
-------------------------------------------
then on Sep. under a title "Faith" he mentioned the followings:
the gospel dispensation will end in 1878
the end of time of gentiles will end after 40 years from 1874 (1914)
------------------------------------------------------
he mentions two different ages the mankind has experienced: the Jewish age from Adam till death of Christ,
then the Gentile age which will end on 1914 when the son of man comes.
------------------------------------------------------------
this is a detailed of what he said:
"I believe that Christ left the Holy Place "the tenth day of the seventh month" occurring October 22nd, 1874; that the "days of the Son of man," and "time of harvest;" began at that time, and continue three and a half years. That the resurrection of the dead in Christ commenced Feb. 15th, 1875. That the "times of restitution" began with That the present Jewish year, commencing, Apr. 6th, 1875. That though Christ left the Holy Place, He was not due on earth, until the time of restitution (Acts 3:21)"
--------------------------------------------------------
and another interesting paragraph is the following:
"The Jubilee cycles prove that the beginning of "the times of restitution of all things," was due with the beginning of this present Jewish year commencing April 6th, 1875: And "the times of the Gentiles," expire thus: To B.C. 606, add 1874 A.D.; which Jewish year ended with April 5th; and 40 years more, and we have the full period, thus; 606, 1874, and 40, make 2520. Then you may say, Christ cannot take the kingdom until "the t imes of the Gentiles" expire, at the end of this 40 years: but you will remember, it is "in the days of
these kings, [the divided fourth empire] the God of heaven shall set up a kingdom; and it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms" (Dan. 2:44)."
-----------------------------------------------------
then on Dec. i have found the following dates interesting:
"The 15th of the first mouth was also the day on which Jacob died just 1845 years before the death of Christ. Hence, on the 15th of the first month in A.D. 1878, the gospel age being then just equal to the Jewish age, or 1845 years long, the "warfare" will end; for the people of God will have received "double.""
-----------------------------------------------------
"I believe Christ left the Holy Place on the 10th day of the 7th month of 1874"
-----------------------------------------------------

OK, i tried to seperate each statement with dashes, and will be glad if you make a comment on each, what do you think?
so, here we are not talking about 1914, but rather on some facts which they believed to be fulfilled before 1914 comes, and therefore they believed and showed special focus on those years mainly 1874/1875

Thanks in advance

 

[Pegg]

Dear Pegg,


OK, i did, so now again i need to ask you about some years which Barbour believed to be very important:

For instance on the August issue, under the title "Chronology the end of the Jewish year"
he mentioned that the year 1873 is the end of the Jewish year
by the way this is not only his believe, Russel did so, now i can't recall where, but if you need i can search for it.
-------------------------------------------
then on Sep. under a title "Faith" he mentioned the followings:
the gospel dispensation will end in 1878
the end of time of gentiles will end after 40 years from 1874 (1914)
------------------------------------------------------
he mentions two different ages the mankind has experienced: the Jewish age from Adam till death of Christ,
then the Gentile age which will end on 1914 when the son of man comes.
------------------------------------------------------------
this is a detailed of what he said:
"I believe that Christ left the Holy Place "the tenth day of the seventh month" occurring October 22nd, 1874; that the "days of the Son of man," and "time of harvest;" began at that time, and continue three and a half years. That the resurrection of the dead in Christ commenced Feb. 15th, 1875. That the "times of restitution" began with That the present Jewish year, commencing, Apr. 6th, 1875. That though Christ left the Holy Place, He was not due on earth, until the time of restitution (Acts 3:21)"
--------------------------------------------------------
and another interesting paragraph is the following:
"The Jubilee cycles prove that the beginning of "the times of restitution of all things," was due with the beginning of this present Jewish year commencing April 6th, 1875: And "the times of the Gentiles," expire thus: To B.C. 606, add 1874 A.D.; which Jewish year ended with April 5th; and 40 years more, and we have the full period, thus; 606, 1874, and 40, make 2520. Then you may say, Christ cannot take the kingdom until "the t imes of the Gentiles" expire, at the end of this 40 years: but you will remember, it is "in the days of
these kings, [the divided fourth empire] the God of heaven shall set up a kingdom; and it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms" (Dan. 2:44)."
-----------------------------------------------------
then on Dec. i have found the following dates interesting:
"The 15th of the first mouth was also the day on which Jacob died just 1845 years before the death of Christ. Hence, on the 15th of the first month in A.D. 1878, the gospel age being then just equal to the Jewish age, or 1845 years long, the "warfare" will end; for the people of God will have received "double.""
-----------------------------------------------------
"I believe Christ left the Holy Place on the 10th day of the 7th month of 1874"
-----------------------------------------------------

OK, i tried to seperate each statement with dashes, and will be glad if you make a comment on each, what do you think?
so, here we are not talking about 1914, but rather on some facts which they believed to be fulfilled before 1914 comes, and therefore they believed and showed special focus on those years mainly 1874/1875

Thanks in advance

all of the above show that many christian groups at that time were keenly interested in the subject of 'chronology' and they were making calculations based on the scriptures. This was in harmony with the prophecy of Daniel which says:
Dan 12:4 “And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.”
The special focus on the 1870's was due to the fact that some reasoned that Christ was already ruling...that he had already come into kingdom power. And that is why they thought 1914 would be when the earthly paradise would be restored. Russel also believed those chronologies and, like many other pastors, wrote about them and preached them.
The change of understanding came in 1914 when Christ actually did come into kingdom power. Thereafter, Russel acknowledged that he had been incorrect and was happy to adjust his understanding as he stated in the following WT:

The Watch Tower of September 1, 1916, : “We imagined that the Harvest work of gathering the Church [of anointed ones] would be accomplished before the end of the Gentile Times; but nothing in the Bible so said. . . . Are we regretful that the Harvest work continues? Nay, verily . . . Our present attitude, dear brethren, should be one of great gratitude toward God, increasing appreciation of the beautiful Truth which He has granted us the privilege of seeing and being identified with, and increasing zeal in helping to bring that Truth to the knowledge of others.”

So what do I think about it? I think its great! Russel showed a willingness to adjust his teaching, and unlike other christians groups, he didnt loose faith and leave religion when things didnt work out the way he thought they would. It shows he was sincere and motivated by a true love for God and truth. That is the sort of christian we should all strive to be.

 

[Marco19]

Thank you dear Pegg,

I think now i have the entire picture clear in my mind.
and thanks for sharing that verse from Daniel, i have never thought that way before

 

[Pegg]

yw,

Can i ask how you've come to know about Jehovahs Witnesses?

 

[GawdAweful]

From my research on the JW's and their early history, Russell believed there was a direct parallel with first century events:

Jesus baptized and anointed to be king of God's kingdom ,First Coming or presence : 29CE
Jesus Second presence invisibly in heaven: 1874 CE

Pentecost Anointing of first christians 3 1/2 years after Jesus baptism.
First resurrection of Christians invisibly 3 1/2 years from 1874 = 1878


Forty years of preaching the Gospel til final judgment on the generation,
29/30 ce + 40 = 70 ce destruction of Jerusalem
1874 ce + 40 = 1914 beginning of Armageddon end of gentile times

To Russell, the length in inches of different passages and chambers within the Great Pyramid at Giza confirmed these dates and years.

 

[Marco19]

yw,

Can i ask how you've come to know about Jehovahs Witnesses?

I think when i started to trace where the millerites ended, that was the first time where i knew about the Bible students/later on JW, but then having a real contact with some JW gave me the chance to have a close look, besides the forum here helps me to ask some extra and extensive questions.

I'm still in touch with a very nice couple nearby to where i live, but cause of time and our schedule, i get the benefit of reading online, specially that now i have the whole issues of WT and Awake (Golden Age) as pdf, and while discussing the years issue with you, i have downloaded almost all the book which Russel published, and already read some chapters from different books, which make me become familiar not only to his thoughts, but rather to the circumstances, the huge effort of many people, not only the Bible students, to search, test, attempt to solve, caluculate and make some historical matches of different events...

seems to be a long journey, and full of adventures

 

[Marco19]

From my research on the JW's and their early history, Russell believed there was a direct parallel with first century events:

Jesus baptized and anointed to be king of God's kingdom ,First Coming or presence : 29CE
Jesus Second presence invisibly in heaven: 1874 CE

Pentecost Anointing of first christians 3 1/2 years after Jesus baptism.
First resurrection of Christians invisibly 3 1/2 years from 1874 = 1878


Forty years of preaching the Gospel til final judgment on the generation,
29/30 ce + 40 = 70 ce destruction of Jerusalem
1874 ce + 40 = 1914 beginning of Armageddon end of gentile times

To Russell, the length in inches of different passages and chambers within the Great Pyramid at Giza confirmed these dates and years.

That's correct, even more he titled those two periods
the one which belongs to Jews, he called Israel after the flesh
and the one of Gentiles: Israel after the spirit (sometimes called spiritual Israel)

 

[Pegg]

I think when i started to trace where the millerites ended, that was the first time where i knew about the Bible students/later on JW, but then having a real contact with some JW gave me the chance to have a close look, besides the forum here helps me to ask some extra and extensive questions.

I'm still in touch with a very nice couple nearby to where i live, but cause of time and our schedule, i get the benefit of reading online, specially that now i have the whole issues of WT and Awake (Golden Age) as pdf, and while discussing the years issue with you, i have downloaded almost all the book which Russel published, and already read some chapters from different books, which make me become familiar not only to his thoughts, but rather to the circumstances, the huge effort of many people, not only the Bible students, to search, test, attempt to solve, caluculate and make some historical matches of different events...

seems to be a long journey, and full of adventures

there is a book on the entire history of the beginning of Russels bible study group to becoming known as Jehovahs Witnesses....I would recommend that book as it gives you a look from the inside with testimony from those involved in the early years.

Its called 'Jehovahs Witnesses - Proclaimers of Gods Kingdom'

Its not online, but if you ask the couple you know, im sure they would be happy to bring you a copy.
Alternatively, there is also the official website with many publications you can download

 

[Marco19]

there is a book on the entire history of the beginning of Russels bible study group to becoming known as Jehovahs Witnesses....I would recommend that book as it gives you a look from the inside with testimony from those involved in the early years.

Its called 'Jehovahs Witnesses - Proclaimers of Gods Kingdom'

Its not online, but if you ask the couple you know, im sure they would be happy to bring you a copy.
Alternatively, there is also the official website with many publications you can download

Hello Pegg,

I am aware of that, you have already posted some paragraphs from that book
i got the book end of December, i'm reading through it, but for me it's not enough because there are many important issues (for me) are mentioned in the book as footnotes or as tiny notes, like for instance the chart of ages or the pyramid or the years which we have been discussing, so i need in addition to read many other books/magazines/articles in a way to get the complete concept or idea of the issue which is mentioned briefly in the book.

right now i'm reading chapter 15, even though the process is slow, but satisfying because i cover many things while reading the book. i would say it is a nice, very informative, sometimes very intensive book.

unfortunately i couldn't find the other history book published earlier, called: Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose (1959)
it seems that it is out of print, but i wonder if, by chance, you have that book, i'm curious to know what that books cover?

Thank you again