Ye are gods! Heresy or truth?

[Aqualung]

Quite right. God alone knows what it means, but for whatever reason this has been written down. Since we have it in writing, this statement has entered into the natural realm, and we are able to examine it together through natural means like grammar, word meaning, syntax, and judge it by reason to see how it is consistent with other Mormon teachings like:

1) God has a human body - flesh and bone
2) God begat all humans in heaven before the world began.

Begat is a term that means to have sexual intercourse and have children.

If only God knows exactly what it means, I have no doubt, but if I am able to get every Mormon I come across to assent to their history, I can take the writing and their word and accept it as a genuine Mormon belief.

Teh quote also states he begat them spiritually before they were begotten naturally upon the face of the earth. That pretty much comes out and point-blank says that God did not create us by having physical sex with somebody, since we were only created that way later when we came to earth.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Again, a topic for a different thread. I find it unfortunate that anyone would care so much about destroying the faith of a group of people that they would go to the trouble that many Christians go to. I say let your faith speak for itself. If these Christians spent as much time preaching the gospel as they did preaching against the Mormons they might be able to make a worthwhile contribution to society.

Then you should have started another thread with your statement than make one that I cannot respond to here, and the rest of your response does not have anything at all with the OP.

 

[nutshell]

This is the simplest way I know of explaining LDS doctrine of "Eternal Progression" (deification).

We believe we are the children of a loving Heavenly Father.

Puppies grow up to be dogs.
Kittens grow up to be cats.
Chicks grow up to be chickens.

So what will the children of God grow up to be???

Not too difficult to answer in my opinion.

 

[jonny]

This debate has been continued in this thread:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=256198#post256198

Back to the debate of this thread...

 

[Katzpur]

I would say that the reason christians react to this is that it speaks of an inflated ego and one imagining themselves as having more power than mere mortals.

Hi, B.

Obviously not all Christians react regatively to this. C.S. Lewis certainly didn't. (Or don't you consider him to be a Christian?) I fail to see how it speaks of an inflated ego. We don't, after all, expect any of this to happen without God making it so. We don't, for a minute, think we could even be resurrected were it not God's will, much less become anything beyond what we are right now. Are you saying that it is beyond His ability to make us into anything He might want to make us into?

Of course, this is equated with our worldly existence and not interpreted symblically. If one looks at it symbolically then one's spirit could hypothetically grow to the point that they knew God, but would not become God.

I never said anything about becoming "God." I said we have the potential, through the grace of God, to become "gods." There is a huge difference between becoming "God" and becoming "a god."

When I first became a christian I always thought about what would Jesus do and tried to follow His example. I would never get to the point that I thought that I was actually Jesus.

Maybe I need to clarify something here. I don't believe that I am actually Jesus, any more than you do. Nor do I believe that I can become Jesus.

I have to admit that when I read your examples my first thought was that they were full of it and didn't have a good concept of God at all.

That's interesting. Why do you believe your concept of God is better than theirs?

On a second point, I noticed the statement that LDS believes in an eternal spirit. This doesn't make sense to me because everything the God creates has a birth/life/death cycle.

I can understand why you would have misunderstood our doctrine (which you have). We do believe that God created our spirits, that He is the father of our spirits. The scriptures state this fact word for word (I don't have my Bible handy, so I can't give you chapter and verse).

Just how long the spirit lives is a good question. Looking at reincarnation as a distinct possibility, the spirit could live through a long number of generations but would ultimately die at some point. Of course this could happen a lot sooner than that if someone were to live an evil life. I agree with James that God makes the decision.

Wow! Well, I don't believe in reincarnation and to me, it seems to be contrary to Christian doctrine. But I think I'll hold off on my comments since I don't want to hijack my own thread! If you were to start a thread called "Can Christians believe in reincarnation?", though, I'll bet you'd get some interesting responses.

Kathryn

 

[Katzpur]

'God became Man that men might become gods' is dependent upon the salvic work of Christ, God incarnate, which Mormons do not confess.

What on earth are you talking about? Are you saying that we don't confess the salvic work of Christ or that you don't believe that Christ is God incarnate? Either way, you've got it wrong. The only thing we don't believe is that Christ was His own Father.

The context of this statement is the Trinity. Because of Who Jesus is, the One and Only God, man will one day have a special communion with God, so much so that this unity is expressed in the doctrine of theosis. While your use of this quote is highly creative, it presupposes a doctrine that is contradictory to LDS doctrine and therefore grossly undermines your argument.

I'm sorry, but you're really not in a position to tell me anything about what is or is not "contrary to LDS doctrine."

"As God now is, man once was; as God is man may be" implies a somewhat natural movement from God to humanity back to God. Therefore, Mormon theology has to explain why gods (us) came down to earth, how we will go back to "heaven," and how we will become "gods." Christian theology has no room for this heresy.

We don't believe what you are saying we believe. We believe that we are the offspring of God and therefore have the potential to become as He is.

The Only God, Creator, came to earth to be a servant (fully God and fully man) and die on a cross, and by the power of His resurrection bring salvation to humanity. There is no room in Christian thought for people to have once been gods and come down to earth - One God did this, not all of us. We are the created, God is the One Creator.

You need to get your facts straight before continuing with this nonsense. Perhaps you ought to focus on expressing your beliefs instead of trying to interpret our beliefs for us. We are entirely capable of doing that ourselves.

Kathryn

 

[Katzpur]

Mormon teaching is constantly changing. It is possible that it was not taught to you, but it has a long tradition in Mormon thought, which is difficult to trace because traditionally Mormon material is undated and anonymous.

That's patently absurd. I'd ask for examples, but to do so would be giving you an invitation to hijack my thread. You obviously think you know a whole lot more about LDS doctrine than you really do. For your information, Mormons do not believe that they were formerly gods. This has never been taught, either now or in the past.

 

[Katzpur]

"As God now is, man once was; as God is man may be."

:biglaugh: You got the quote bass-ackwards! :biglaugh: That's one of the funniest misquotes I've ever seen!

For an example, see http://www.lds-mormon.com/gbh.shtml where President Hinckley distances himself from J. Smith.

He does nothing of the sort. First of all, the quote wasn't even Joseph Smith's. He was merely emphasizing that the statement (which was Lorenzo Snow's) was not canonical. Your source states that it is "nearly canonized," whatever that's supposed to mean. Something is either canonized or it's not. There is no such thing as "nearly canonized."

When you say "children of God," in the Mormon sense this means that "God" had sexual intercourse in the human sense to begat literal children, of which we were before we chose to come to earth.

Oh, come on! You have got to be kidding! That is pure nonsense.

 

[Katzpur]

Hi Melody,

Thanks for your comments. I don't underestimate an outsiders knowledge of my religion, but from the comments being made the lack of understanding is apparent.

Melody,

I'd just like to add to what jonny said. Angellous_evangellous has made so many inaccurate statements that it's obvious to any Mormon on this forum that he doesn't have the foggiest notion of what he is talking about.

I didn't include "I heard that Mormons believe they will become a God" because it is true. That is the basis of this entire thread.

The big question is what does this mean. There is very little knowledge on what this means and a lot of speculation. When asked even our current prophet said we are not certain about what this means. I don't believe that it means that we will ever be greater than God. Our God will always be our God.

Secondly (and I hope jonny won't mind my clarifying his statement), but it's really not quite accurate to say, "Mormons believe that they will become a God." It would be more accurate to say, "Mormons believe that all of God's children (that includes non-Mormons as well as Mormons) have the potential to become gods (with a lower-case "g"). As sons and daughters of Deity, we are each endowed with a spark of divinity. Through God's grace, we have all been promised the privilge of progressing eternally. However, we could not possibly do so of our own accord, nor will we ever be independent of God, our Father in Heaven." If you will read the opening post of this thread, you will see some of the evidence which supports our belief.

Kathryn

 

[Katzpur]

Again, a topic for a different thread. I find it unfortunate that anyone would care so much about destroying the faith of a group of people that they would go to the trouble that many Christians go to. I say let your faith speak for itself. If these Christians spent as much time preaching the gospel as they did preaching against the Mormons they might be able to make a worthwhile contribution to society.

jonny, maybe I should start a thread entitled, "How long can a Baptist minister post on a religion forum before starting to throw mud?" This one made it a whole nine months. That's got to be a new world's record, wouldn't you agree? :biglaugh:

 

[Katzpur]

Begat is a term that means to have sexual intercourse and have children.

Obviously, you don't accept the following verses from the Bible as authoritative:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (Hebrews 1:5)

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. (1 John 4:9)

How did God beget Jesus Christ according to your theology? According to mine, Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to the Savior. Unless I missed something in Biology 101, that would have been quite impossible had she had sex with God.

 

[Katzpur]

*** MOD POST ***​

It's time to get this thread back on topic. All of the off-topic posts have now been addressed. Please confine all further posts to the subject addressed in the opening post.

 

[Bennettresearch]

Hi, B.

Obviously not all Christians react regatively to this. C.S. Lewis certainly didn't. (Or don't you consider him to be a Christian?) I fail to see how it speaks of an inflated ego. We don't, after all, expect any of this to happen without God making it so. We don't, for a minute, think we could even be resurrected were it not God's will, much less become anything beyond what we are right now. Are you saying that it is beyond His ability to make us into anything He might want to make us into?

I am simply saying that we know we are finite creatures. It is not God's ability, but ours that is in question.

I never said anything about becoming "God." I said we have the potential, through the grace of God, to become "gods." There is a huge difference between becoming "God" and becoming "a god."

OK. I see, to make room for us becoming gods we have to resort to a hierarchy of gods? Is this why polytheism was so popular in ancient times?

Maybe I need to clarify something here. I don't believe that I am actually Jesus, any more than you do. Nor do I believe that I can become Jesus.

I din't say anybody did. I was using it as an analogy. Try contemplating what someone is saying before you fire off at them.

That's interesting. Why do you believe your concept of God is better than theirs?

Are you saying that they are infallible? Theirs is the last word? It is very apparent that they are over-reaching. Are you saying that I have no ability to analyze a concept?

I can understand why you would have misunderstood our doctrine (which you have). We do believe that God created our spirits, that He is the father of our spirits. The scriptures state this fact word for word (I don't have my Bible handy, so I can't give you chapter and verse).

Check this out Kathryn.

Could you explain this a little more? We believe that our spirits are eternal - is that what you're refering to?

I am misunderstanding this?

Wow! Well, I don't believe in reincarnation and to me, it seems to be contrary to Christian doctrine. But I think I'll hold off on my comments since I don't want to hijack my own thread! If you were to start a thread called "Can Christians believe in reincarnation?", though, I'll bet you'd get some interesting responses.

Kathryn

It was thought as to how it would work out if we had millions of spirits in a static state after we die. I was contemplating a system of how our spirits would continue. Just because the Catholic church, or its continued doctrine in other sects of christianity, doesn't believe in reincarnation doesn't mean that there isn't a possibility that it exists. It would be through reincarnation that Jesus would come back, not literally floating down from heaven in a corporeal form. Think about that for a minute.

As an added thought. I can see why you bring on so much resistance and become so defensive. You don't seem to want to discuss what you have brought up.

 

[Aqualung]

I am simply saying that we know we are finite creatures. It is not God's ability, but ours that is in question.

Do not marvel in this, for in christ, all things are possible.

 

[Quiddity]

Do not marvel in this, for in christ, all things are possible.

It's even possible to perceive him in a different light..

~Victor

 

[Katzpur]

I am simply saying that we know we are finite creatures. It is not God's ability, but ours that is in question.

Perhaps we misunderstood one another. I, too, believe that we are finite (in terms of what we have the ability to do on our own). If I implied that we have an innate ability to someday become “gods” or “godlike,” I misled you. That is certainly not what I believe. What I do believe is that God can enable us to become whatever He may want us to become.

OK. I see, to make room for us becoming gods we have to resort to a hierarchy of gods? Is this why polytheism was so popular in ancient times?

No, this isn’t what I said at all. There are a number of instances in the Old Testament in which “God” (our Father in Heaven) is compared to other “gods.”

Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward…

Joshua 22:22 The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD…

If these “gods” are “false gods,” does that make “God” a “God of false gods”? I’m certainly not comfortable with that interpretation.

Paul speaks of “gods many” in the New Testament, too.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Again, you may believe that he is speaking of false gods, but the fact that he specifically mentions those who are “called gods… in heaven” leads me to believe that there exist beings who are, in a sense, divine. However, we have been commanded not to worship them, as they have no influence or power over us. Hence, “to us there is but one God.”

I didn't say anybody did. I was using it as an analogy. Try contemplating what someone is saying before you fire off at them.

I’m sorry if it appeared to you that I was “firing off at you.” That certainly wasn’t my intention. On the other hand, it does seem to me that when you said, “I would never get to the point that I thought that I was actually Jesus,” you were attempting to contrast your belief with mine. I did nothing more than point out that I don’t believe am I actually Jesus either.

Are you saying that they are infallible?

No.

Theirs is the last word?

Again, no.

It is very apparent that they are over-reaching.

Perhaps to you. Obviously not to me. Otherwise, I would believe as you do. I just wanted to know why you thought they were “full of it.” Could you tell me?

Are you saying that I have no ability to analyze a concept?

Not at all. You may be analyzing the concept just fine. So far, you just haven’t explained to me why you have come to the conclusion that you have. If you have any evidence to refute mine, I’m open to hearing it.

Check this out Kathryn.

Hebrews 12:9 “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto theFather of spirits, and live?”

As an added thought. I can see why you bring on so much resistance and become so defensive. You don't seem to want to discuss what you have brought up.

Huh? This is a debate forum and I’m “defending” my position. That’s what we do here. Of course I want to discuss what I’ve brought up. I almost begged for responses, for crying out loud. I just don’t happen to agree with your opinion, that’s all. I’m actually quite enjoying our discussion, and would like to see it continue.

Kathryn

 

[Hope]

Seems to me a lot of misunderstanding here revolves around the term 'god.' Lower case. I think we all agree on Who God is. But what about the gods, plural?

 

[SPLogan]

How did the Serpent persuade Eve to sin?

 

[jonny]

How did the Serpent persuade Eve to sin?

Eve couldn't sin in the garden of Eden - she didn't know the difference between good and evil.

 

[jonny]

Seems to me a lot of misunderstanding here revolves around the term 'god.' Lower case. I think we all agree on Who God is. But what about the gods, plural?

The only way for me to answer this question is from the scriptures because anything else would be speculation.

Here are a few scriptures that I found. They are in the Doctrine and Covenants.

D&C 76:58-69 - ...they are gods, even the sons of God. Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ's and Christ is God's. And they shall overcome all things. ... These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever. ... These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection. These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just. ... These are they who are just men made perfect though Jesus the mediator of the new covenant who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.

D&C 132:30 - Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, becase they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

D&C 132:37 - ...And because [Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob] did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.