Ye are gods! Heresy or truth?

[jonny]

Mormons believe that we were once "gods" in the begginning. This quote also undermines your position.

No we don't. We believe that we are children of God with the potential to become like God. We do not believe that we were ever Gods or that we are currently Gods.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

No we don't. We believe that we are children of God with the potential to become like God. We do not believe that we were ever Gods or that we are currently Gods.

Mormon teaching is constantly changing. It is possible that it was not taught to you, but it has a long tradition in Mormon thought, which is difficult to trace because traditionally Mormon material is undated and anonymous.

 

[jonny]

'God became Man that men might become gods' is dependent upon the salvic work of Christ, God incarnate, which Mormons do not confess.

We don't?!? Your understanding of Mormon theology is, how do I say this lightly, pathetically wrong. Perhaps you should try out your posts in the "I heard that Mormons..." thread before posting them in a debate thread.

I'll help you out.

"I heard that Mormons believe they used to be Gods." - WRONG
"I heard that Mormons believe they are currently Gods." - WRONG
"I heard that Mormons believe that they can be saved without Christ." - WRONG

 

[angellous_evangellous]

"As God now is, man once was; as God is man may be."

For an example, see http://www.lds-mormon.com/gbh.shtml where President Hinckley distances himself from J. Smith.

When you say "children of God," in the Mormon sense this means that "God" had sexual intercourse in the human sense to begat literal children, of which we were before we chose to come to earth.

 

[jonny]

Mormon teaching is constantly changing. It is possible that it was not taught to you, but it has a long tradition in Mormon thought, which is difficult to trace because traditionally Mormon material is undated and anonymous.

Right. The quote you are misquoting came from Lorenzo Snow who was a prophet in the late 1800s. Mormonism isn't even 200 years old. I am a tenth generation Mormon with my first ancestor joining the church in 1832 (the church was organized in 1830) - I think I have a pretty good understanding of Mormon history and theology. I agree that more emphasis is being put on Christ today, but that doesn't mean that our beliefs regarding him have changed. It should also be noted that the emphasis on Christ grew about the same time that the Church started putting more of a focus on the Book of Mormon.

 

[jonny]

When you say "children of God," in the Mormon sense this means that "God" had sexual intercourse in the human sense to begat literal children, of which we were before we chose to come to earth.

No it doesn't. Perhaps you should get off the anti-Mormon websites. Again, pathetically wrong. :banghead3 I HAVE NEVER IN MY ENTIRE LIFE EVERY HEARD THIS TYPE OF THEOLOGY IN A MORMON CHURCH!!! The only place I have ever heard it is from anti-Mormons. We believe that God "organized" our Spirits.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

We don't?!? Your understanding of Mormon theology is, how do I say this lightly, pathetically wrong. Perhaps you should try out your posts in the "I heard that Mormons..." thread before posting them in a debate thread.

I'll help you out.

"I heard that Mormons believe they used to be Gods." - WRONG
"I heard that Mormons believe they are currently Gods." - WRONG
"I heard that Mormons believe that they can be saved without Christ." - WRONG

Perhaps you should have read that thread. I have several posts on it. Mormon theology is constantly changing is so effortless to demonstrate that it is wholly uneeded to expound on it here. I have personally heard it from Mormon missionaries and have read it in Mormon literature myself. I do not deny that you have no understanding of this, and you may be ignorant of Mormon history, even if you have been a Mormon for a while. But it has been taught.

 

[jonny]

Perhaps you should have read that thread. I have several posts on it. Mormon theology is constantly changing is so effortless to demonstrate that it is wholly uneeded to expound on it here. I have personally heard it from Mormon missionaries and have read it in Mormon literature myself. I do not deny that you have no understanding of this, and you may be ignorant of Mormon history, even if you have been a Mormon for a while. But it has been taught.

I have read and posted in that thread. Thanks for the advice. Mormon theology is not constantly changing.

I seriously doubt that a Mormon missionary would make such a gross lie to you about the teachings of the church. There is already a thread for people who have gross misunderstandings about Mormonism and this isn't it.

P.S. I love that you presume to know more about Mormon theology than I do. I am almost 27 years old. I have probably missed church on Sunday less than 20 times in my entire life. Church includes two hours of classes studying church history, scriptures, teachings of our prophets, etc. I have attended the temple more times than I could count. I served a mission for two years which included 10 weeks of training in Mormon theology. I attended four years of Seminary, which includes classes Monday - Friday, one year studying the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Old Testament, and New Testament. My family read the scriptures together almost every single night for as long as I can remember. I have taken college level classes in Mormon church history, the book of mormon, the pearl of great price, teachings of the living prophets, etc. I just finished writing an 800 page book on the history of my family which parallels the history of the LDS church. This doesn't even include my personal study. And you PRESUME to think that I have NO IDEA about what my church teaches.

Let me tell you one thing - I have a lot more knowledge about my religion than someone who goes around getting crap off anti-mormon websites, which I have visited enough of to know that they distort the church's teachings.

People can say a lot of things about Mormons, but it is ignorant to believe that we are not educated on our religion.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

From Doctrine and Covanents 76

That by him•, and through him, and of him, the worlds• are and were created, and the inhabitants• thereof are begotten sons• and daughters unto God.


From Doctrine and Covanents 130

Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

If God the Father has flesh and bones like a human, how does he begat children?

 

[Melody]

I love that you presume to know more about Mormon theology than I do. I am almost 27 years old. I have probably missed church on Sunday less than 20 times in my entire life. Church includes two hours of classes studying church history, scriptures, teachings of our prophets, etc. I have attended the temple more times than I could count. I served a mission for two years which included 10 weeks of training in Mormon theology. I attended four years of Seminary, which includes classes Monday - Friday, one year studying the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Old Testament, and New Testament. My family read the scriptures together almost every single night for as long as I can remember. I have taken college level classes in Mormon church history, the book of mormon, the pearl of great price, teachings of the living prophets, etc. This doesn't even include my personal study. And you PRESUME to think that I have NO IDEA about what my church teaches.

I wouldn't underestimate the knowledge of someone on this forum just because they weren't brought up in the religion. The difference between someone brought up in a religion and one who wasn't but is curious/interested in learning is that the "outsider" is more likely to look at things in an unbiased manner and not shove the "uncomfortable" pieces under a rug.

I do understand your irritation, however, despite that. Now, just to keep it on topic, I have a question....

I heard that Mormons believe they used to be Gods." - WRONG
"I heard that Mormons believe they are currently Gods." - WRONG
"I heard that Mormons believe that they can be saved without Christ." - WRONG

I noticed you didn't include "I heard that Mormons believe they will become a god." and I think someone said earlier that this was mormon belief. That when you die, and I'm assuming based on some specific acts/events, you will eventually become a god...implying equality with the true God. Can you clarify this, please? Thanks.

 

[jonny]

Thank you for your weak interpretation of Mormon scripture. You will not find a Mormon who would agree that "begotten" means intercourse.

To those scriptures, let me add this one - "Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones"

I would explain what intelligences are, but since you know so much about Mormon theology I'll assume that you already know.

 

[jonny]

I noticed you didn't include "I heard that Mormons believe they will become a god." and I think someone said earlier that this was mormon belief. That when you die, and I'm assuming based on some specific acts/events, you will eventually become a god...implying equality with the true God. Can you clarify this, please? Thanks.

Hi Melody,

Thanks for your comments. I don't underestimate an outsiders knowledge of my religion, but from the comments being made the lack of understanding is apparent.

I didn't include "I heard that Mormons believe they will become a God" because it is true. That is the basis of this entire thread.

The big question is what does this mean. There is very little knowledge on what this means and a lot of speculation. When asked even our current prophet said we are not certain about what this means. I don't believe that it means that we will ever be greater than God. Our God will always be our God.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Below we see humanity created in heaven before the creation of the world, substantiating my post earlier. The correct term I remember from the missionaries (I also spoke with a bishop about this at a temple consecration) is spirit children. I had to push the bishop quite a bit to admit it, but he did, and we are on good terms today.

Book of Moses Chapter 3

For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground•; for in heaven created I them

 

[jonny]

Below we see humanity created in heaven before the creation of the world, substantiating my post earlier. The correct term I remember from the missionaries (I also spoke with a bishop about this at a temple consecration) is spirit children. I had to push the bishop quite a bit to admit it, but he did, and we are on good terms today.

Book of Moses Chapter 3

For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground•; for in heaven created I them

That is true, but spirits are not created through sexual intercourse. Our physical bodies are created through sexual intercourse. We don't know how spirits are created - The only thing we know is that they are created from intelligence. God only knows what that means.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Thank you for your weak interpretation of Mormon scripture. You will not find a Mormon who would agree that "begotten" means intercourse.

To those scriptures, let me add this one - "Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones"

I would explain what intelligences are, but since you know so much about Mormon theology I'll assume that you already know.

Jonny,

Mormons can interpret their writings any way that they see fit, they are quite content to write them in the first place. However, the "outside" world can only read what is written with a bit of help from the constantly changing Mormon publications.

I have not found a Mormon yet that denied this. Granted, most of them had to be pushed quite a bit and have to frustratingly admit that these teachings are both present in their historical and contemporary literature and propounded/refuted by current leadership.

I have a wonderful book, Searching for God in America by Hugh Hewitt, in which he discusses these embarrassing doctrines while interviewing Neal Maxwell, then a member of the Quorum of the Twelve. As far as I know, Maxwell is in good terms with Mormonism, and quoting him is how I have roasted Mormon missionaries in their ingnorance.

I don't have time for this tiresome discussion, but if you are interested, Searching for God is a wonderful, non-bias book in which Hugh examines every major sect in America through interviews and historical overview. It is quite good.

The best scholarly book that I have ever read on Mormonism is The New Mormon Challenge, a collection of scholarly Mormon articles with analysis. It is by far the best thing out there that aquaints Christian scholars on advances in Mormon scholarship. We are quite isolated from eachother. Christians have been ignoring Mormon development since its inception, and contemporary Mormon interpretation has become, well, more orthodox as Mormon scholars have been basing their doctrines on exegesis of the Bible rather than their own material - this is why it does not surprise me in the least that you either don't know or are not honest about traditional Mormon beliefs.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

That is true, but spirits are not created through sexual intercourse. Our physical bodies are created through sexual intercourse. We don't know how spirits are created - The only thing we know is that they are created from intelligence. God only knows what that means.

Quite right. God alone knows what it means, but for whatever reason this has been written down. Since we have it in writing, this statement has entered into the natural realm, and we are able to examine it together through natural means like grammar, word meaning, syntax, and judge it by reason to see how it is consistent with other Mormon teachings like:

1) God has a human body - flesh and bone
2) God begat all humans in heaven before the world began.

Begat is a term that means to have sexual intercourse and have children.

If only God knows exactly what it means, I have no doubt, but if I am able to get every Mormon I come across to assent to their history, I can take the writing and their word and accept it as a genuine Mormon belief.

 

[jonny]

Mormons can interpret their writings any way that they see fit, they are quite content to write them in the first place. However, the "outside" world can only read what is written with a bit of help from the constantly changing Mormon publications.

I have not found a Mormon yet that denied this. Granted, most of them had to be pushed quite a bit and have to frustratingly admit that these teachings are both present in their historical and contemporary literature and propounded/refuted by current leadership.

I have a wonderful book, Searching for God in America by Hugh Hewitt, in which he discusses these embarrassing doctrines while interviewing Neal Maxwell, then a member of the Quorum of the Twelve. As far as I know, Maxwell is in good terms with Mormonism, and quoting him is how I have roasted Mormon missionaries in their ingnorance.

I don't have time for this tiresome discussion, but if you are interested, Searching for God is a wonderful, non-bias book in which Hugh examines every major sect in America through interviews and historical overview. It is quite good.

This is an issued for another thread, but as of yet you have failed to provide any evidence of your claims. I hardly call your claim that no Mormon has ever denied it evidence - I deny that this is doctrine of the LDS church. Start a thread and show me some real proof.

The best scholarly book that I have ever read on Mormonism is The New Mormon Challenge, a collection of scholarly Mormon articles with analysis. It is by far the best thing out there that aquaints Christian scholars on advances in Mormon scholarship. We are quite isolated from eachother. Christians have been ignoring Mormon development since its inception, and contemporary Mormon interpretation has become, well, more orthodox as Mormon scholars have been basing their doctrines on exegesis of the Bible rather than their own material - this is why it does not surprise me in the least that you either don't know or are not honest about traditional Mormon beliefs.

The only reason Christian Scholars are paying attention to Mormonism is because they thought if they ignored it that it would go away. It isn't going away so now they have to look for new ways to fight against it. They realized that Mormons aren't the morons that they always assumed they were and that we don't believe all the anti-Mormon literature claiming that we worship the devil, etc.

Like I said, our doctrine becoming more Orthodox did not have to do with an emphasis on the Bible - it came about when the church put an emphasis on the Book of Mormon in the 1980s.

 

[jonny]

Quite right. God alone knows what it means, but for whatever reason this has been written down. Since we have it in writing, this statement has entered into the natural realm, and we are able to examine it together through natural means like grammar, word meaning, syntax, and judge it by reason to see how it is consistent with other Mormon teachings like:

1) God has a human body - flesh and bone
2) God begat all humans in heaven before the world began.

Begat is a term that means to have sexual intercourse and have children.

If only God knows exactly what it means, I have no doubt, but if I am able to get every Mormon I come across to assent to their history, I can take the writing and their word and accept it as a genuine Mormon belief.

Again, your interpretation of LDS scripture. I have always been taught that our spirits are eternal because they were organized from substance that has existed eternally. I don't need to explain how intercourse works to you, but it involves sperm and an egg. Our spirits were not created in this way.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The only reason Christian Scholars are paying attention to Mormonism is because they thought if they ignored it that it would go away. It isn't going away so now they have to look for new ways to fight against it. They realized that Mormons aren't the morons that they always assumed they were and that we don't believe all the anti-Mormon literature claiming that we worship the devil, etc.


I will agree with you here. Mormonism is continuing to be ignored by Chrisianity, and some Christian scholars, like the contributors to The New Mormon challenge are ringing us for that. In order for Mormon scholars to be acceptable in academia (eg, prove that they are not the morons - to use your words and the word-play), they must forgo some embarassing traditional Mormon beliefs like the nature of the golden tablets that were supposedly translated by J. Smith, everything that was "revealed" concerning the history of South America, and the Mormon history of Israel. While Mormon scholarship is gaining some attention, it is greatly restricted to NT and OT interpretation.


Like I said, our doctrine becoming more Orthodox did not have to do with an emphasis on the Bible - it came about when the church put an emphasis on the Book of Mormon in the 1980s.

I will disagree with you here. The mere notion of the Book of Mormon as another testament automatically excludes Mormon thought from orthodoxy (Orthodoxy is Eastern Orthodoxy, orthodoxy is correct Christian teaching as accepted by those who accept the Nichene Creed). However, since most distinct Mormon theology comes from The Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covanents, it is not surprising that you take this view, as the Book of Mormon is itself a sloppy plagarism of the King James Version of the Bible. If Mormonism is getting closer to orthodoxy because of a renewed emphasis on the Book of Mormon as you say, it is because of the similarities between the Book of Mormon and the King James Version of the Bible which it plagarises.

 

[jonny]

I will agree with you here. Mormonism is continuing to be ignored by Chrisianity, and some Christian scholars, like the contributors to The New Mormon challenge are ringing us for that. In order for Mormon scholars to be acceptable in academia (eg, prove that they are not the morons - to use your words and the word-play), they must forgo some embarassing traditional Mormon beliefs like the nature of the golden tablets that were supposedly translated by J. Smith, everything that was "revealed" concerning the history of South America, and the Mormon history of Israel. While Mormon scholarship is gaining some attention, it is greatly restricted to NT and OT interpretation.

Again, a topic for a different thread. I find it unfortunate that anyone would care so much about destroying the faith of a group of people that they would go to the trouble that many Christians go to. I say let your faith speak for itself. If these Christians spent as much time preaching the gospel as they did preaching against the Mormons they might be able to make a worthwhile contribution to society.