Yahweh = Satan

[Mindmaster]

Read an article on disinfo.. that reminded me of some things.. Here are some bits:

Look at the story of the garden… the story is a big allegory of course, but allegorical for what, exactly? It was Lucifer who brought knowledge to Adam and Eve, and showed them the bondage of ignorance they were restrained in. As Lucifer can be translated from Greek as “Bringer of Dawn”, it is fitting to call the garden story the allegory of humanitys long night in the darkness of ignorance, and the “Bringer of Dawn” who signaled the impending rising of the light, and the banishing of the dark.

Any wonder why Yahweh got mad? Just like our own tyrannical governments of this day and age, an informed and educated people were/are this entities worst enemy. Lucifer broke Yahwehs monopoly/dominance over and control of information.

Personally, I don't go with the Lucifer = Satan claim for many reasons (lack of historical precedent, etc...), but whatever case I can agree with the author in that The Devil should be the bad guy not the good one. A tyrant mercilessly holding power for his own to keep a clutch of serfs for eternity isn't really a good guy in any sense of the term. This sort of jives with Gnostic, and Theistic Satanist understandings as well. Now, regarding the nature of Jesus:

Christians might claim they worship Jesus, not Yahweh. Perhaps they do, but why do they worship someone who clearly did not seek the peoples worship, nor wanted to be anyones leader? It is clear Jesus wanted one thing: not worship, but for the people to emulate his behavior, to be LIKE him, not to think him a god and beg him for free stuff. Thats the OLD way, which he came to uproot. He called us his friends and siblings, NOT his minions and serfs.

Again, this is very much my understanding of Jesus' teachings as well. If anyone was flying in the face of the dogma and status quo of his time one could do no better than to be a Jewish heretic at his time. Really, if anyone is stealing the fires from heaven literally it is Jesus who does so time and time again. Inserting yourself between a former god (Yahweh) and the people would have been a near perilous act.

Anyway, I'll link the article below... Let me know what you guys think!

http://disinfo.com/2016/02/yahweh-satan-they-have-you-worshiping-evil/

 

[ThirtyThree]

Read an article on disinfo.. that reminded me of some things.. Here are some bits:



Personally, I don't go with the Lucifer = Satan claim for many reasons (lack of historical precedent, etc...), but whatever case I can agree with the author in that The Devil should be the bad guy not the good one. A tyrant mercilessly holding power for his own to keep a clutch of serfs for eternity isn't really a good guy in any sense of the term. This sort of jives with Gnostic, and Theistic Satanist understandings as well. Now, regarding the nature of Jesus:



Again, this is very much my understanding of Jesus' teachings as well. If anyone was flying in the face of the dogma and status quo of his time one could do no better than to be a Jewish heretic at his time. Really, if anyone is stealing the fires from heaven literally it is Jesus who does so time and time again. Inserting yourself between a former god (Yahweh) and the people would have been a near perilous act.

Anyway, I'll link the article below... Let me know what you guys think!

http://disinfo.com/2016/02/yahweh-satan-they-have-you-worshiping-evil/

I have often pondered this. However, it is unfair to make the claim that Yahweh only hates and is only a tyrant. It is clear enough that he loves those who obey his rules, and those who obey his rules, by proxy, love him. He likewise hates those who disobey him, and therefore by proxy hate him.

He both loves and hates absolutely, just like he judges absolutely. I do however question the claim he is omni-anything.

With that said, is he Satan? No. I do not believe he is Satan. In fact, I am leaning more towards Lucifer and Satan being the same supernal. To explain the contrast in nature, Lucifer fell. He was, like all supernals and like Yahweh, an absolute being. When he fell, he fell absolutely. His nature fell. If he loved, he no longer loves. He was, to make it simple, conformed to his sin. He could no longer bare the light of Yahweh, which is what he did prior to his fall.

This is my understanding of this matter currently. I am still looking into it.

 

[outhouse]

Anyway, I'll link the article below... Let me know what you guys think!

A very uneducated conclusion based on complete ignorance and quote mining of concept that was always evolving. Nothing was taken in context to the actual history.

Its a complete disregard for what we know of the origins of these text, and the actual cultural anthropology of the people themselves/

 

[Mindmaster]

A very uneducated conclusion based on complete ignorance and quote mining of concept that was always evolving. Nothing was taken in context to the actual history.

Its a complete disregard for what we know of the origins of these text, and the actual cultural anthropology of the people themselves/

You're fun at parties!

Anyway, I was just floating the idea. Anyway, historically Lucifer doesn't have a history... Satan is the title of the angel Samael, and angels are "of god" (generally denoted by the "EL" in their names) so Samael vs YHWH is possible. Second, cultural traditions write their history to serve themselves -- they are not entirely accurate. If we go back in history Enlil is a meany and Enki tries to save humanity from the flood. Enlil is as far as I can tell exactly the character Hebrews ripped off -- he is known as, "father of the gods", "king of heaven and earth", and a bunch of similar epithets.

Anyway, it is possible that Enlil hereafter known as YHWH is a malignant god at least in the comparisons of Enki where Enki is the true creator of the earth, and creates man as well as saves them from a deluge. Enki creates the world and man, and teaches them magic and all sorts of learning. He is an earlier proto-Prometheus, and represented by the goat and the fish. Which later are merged to become a capricornish hybrid... It's funny how the Hebrews take to mistreating goats later as a part of ritual, and the connection doesn't make sense until you get this link. Thus, it is possible that Enlil is the real Devil -- a mean old tyrant god that has forsaken all others and wants slaves -- which is the god Abrahamic religions are worshiping in a new dress. Most Satanists can identify a lot of Enki in their notion of Satan, so I don't think it is very confusing. It is obvious that if YHWH = Enlil, then Enki=Samael/Satan.

 

[ThirtyThree]

You're fun at parties!

Anyway, I was just floating the idea. Anyway, historically Lucifer doesn't have a history... Satan is the title of the angel Samael, and angels are "of god" (generally denoted by the "EL" in their names) so Samael vs YHWH is possible. Second, cultural traditions write their history to serve themselves -- they are not entirely accurate. If we go back in history Enlil is a meany and Enki tries to save humanity from the flood. Enlil is as far as I can tell exactly the character Hebrews ripped off -- he is known as, "father of the gods", "king of heaven and earth", and a bunch of similar epithets.

Anyway, it is possible that Enlil hereafter known as YHWH is a malignant god at least in the comparisons of Enki where Enki is the true creator of the earth, and creates man as well as saves them from a deluge. Enki creates the world and man, and teaches them magic and all sorts of learning. He is an earlier proto-Prometheus, and represented by the goat and the fish. Which later are merged to become a capricornish hybrid... It's funny how the Hebrews take to mistreating goats later as a part of ritual, and the connection doesn't make sense until you get this link. Thus, it is possible that Enlil is the real Devil -- a mean old tyrant god that has forsaken all others and wants slaves -- which is the god Abrahamic religions are worshiping in a new dress. Most Satanists can identify a lot of Enki in their notion of Satan, so I don't think it is very confusing. It is obvious that if YHWH = Enlil, then Enki=Samael/Satan.

Enlil sent a flood because he could not sleep due to all the noise humanity was making. Zeus sent a deluge because humans were practicing cannibalism and other atrocities and Yahweh sent a flood because he regretted creating man, the world was full of sin. He also mainly wanted to rid the world of the hybrid offspring of the fallen Watchers.

Same deity or Satan playing a great game of imitation?

 

[outhouse]

Samael vs YHWH is possible.

No it is not.

If we go back in history Enlil is a meany and Enki tries to save humanity from the flood. Enlil is as far as I can tell exactly the character Hebrews ripped off -- he is known as, "father of the gods", "king of heaven and earth", and a bunch of similar epithets.

One of many flood mythologies

And the father of gods was El not Yahweh originally. And it was from Canaanite mythology originally which was influenced by Mesopotamian mythology.

Second, cultural traditions write their history to serve themselves -- they are not entirely accurate.

We DO NOT take any of these stories as accurate. I'm not talking biblical text when talking about anthropology, I'm talking about what does and does not have historicity

Anyway, it is possible that Enlil hereafter known as YHWH

Sorry that is not how or what took place, and has no part in he evolution of the Yahweh concept.

Anyway, I was just floating the idea

Then lets try and float what we know, not what we guess.

 

[outhouse]

Enlil sent a flood because he could not sleep due to all the noise humanity was making. Zeus sent a deluge because humans were practicing cannibalism and other atrocities and Yahweh sent a flood because he regretted creating man, the world was full of sin. He also mainly wanted to rid the world of the hybrid offspring of the fallen Watchers.

Same deity or Satan playing a great game of imitation?

First of all none of the flood mythologies have anything to do with the devil or satan concept.



Here is the reality of the israelite flood mythology

We see a attested flood in 2900 BC that factually devastated a city along the Euphrates. Soon after we have mythology of a king Ziusudra who was king during this period who went down the flooded river on a barge loaded with goods and livestock.

Soon after we have river flood mythology in Akkadian text in cuneiform telling heir epic very close to Ziusudra.


Long after we have the epic of Gilgamesh and a SEA deluge.


Long after while exiled is Mesopotamia the Israelites turned this seas deluge into an epic global deluge surrounded around the new found monotheism related to Yahweh.

 

[outhouse]

Satan is the title of the angel Samael, and angels are "of god" (generally denoted by the "EL" in their names)

Sorry I want to see a credible source for this.


These Israelites were named first as a semi nomadic people not a country and it goes like this. "Is ra EL" so if some of the mythological founding characters have El I would presume it is because EL was the primary deity early on before the concept was compiled into Yahweh

 

[ThirtyThree]

Sorry I want to see a credible source for this.


These Israelites were named first as a semi nomadic people not a country and it goes like this. "Is ra EL" so if some of the mythological founding characters have El I would presume it is because EL was the primary deity early on before the concept was compiled into Yahweh

EL was the primary deity in their pantheon.

Are you familiar with the Kaaba? The black cube was a symbol of EL.

Variations include, EL Shaddai. EL of the Mountain and so on.

 

[RRex]

Since November 2015 I've been reading The Lost Language of Symbolism by Harold Bayley. It is an etymological look at worldwide languages and, to a lesser extent, printer's watermarks. The reason it's taking me so long to read one book is that I've been reading it over and over to absorb it.

You may ask why. The short answer is because it blurs the lines between God and Satan, dark and light. So I've been left in a real quandary as to the truth of our reality.

Put simply, the most glaring issue is that many dissections of our languages point to light and light is actually associated with both sides of the coin - to the extent that one cannot tell which side is referenced.

This has led me to the current belief that "it" is all one entity, but divided in itself. That is, playing both roles.

I know this will surprise no one.

I'm open to questions and will answer as best I can. I don't feel I've explained this adequately. Perhaps the perspectives of other members will help elicit the information in a more understandable way.

I've actually discussed the material in another thread. The link is below and it will help flesh things out.

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...tanding-of-oneness.183735/page-4#post-4615209

 

[Mindmaster]

No it is not.

Ok, if we're doing this like a math problem...

Middle Eastern Shamanism -> Egyptian, Canaanite, and Mesopotamian Religions.

Mesopotamian religions fork back into Canaanite and Indus Valley Religions, and the Canaanite -> Judaism.

Egyptian religion forks back with Atenism into Judaism... Monotheism isn't a popular idea before it does.

These things I've mentioned above are fact. So, I'm not interested in arguing them -- thus, the previous posts aren't wild. Just more like connecting dots... Your commentary is pretty pretentious, and just reflects you don't even know what you are speaking about. YHWH in every way is a Canaanite/Mesopotamian mish-mash god -- there is no real need to contend the fact. Also, there is no need to contend that he wasn't the highest god in all of those pantheons... Enlil was not the "big cheese" of Sumerian religion... That was Anu... But, Anu could only be spoken to by Enlil. Hebrews have to basically rewrite Enlil into something else or he's "not the only god". Secondarily, in Canaanite religion EL is the highest god, but he creates 70 other god via Asherah known as "Elohim". These Elohim are probably what the Hebrews call the "angels", but apparently it was sacrilege to assume that angels were gods or something... So that had to change huh? Anyway, we know Enlil/El/YHWH are the same guy. We also know Hebrews stole so much from everyone else that they didn't likely invent any of the -EL ending angels... Samael, Raphael, etc... "EL" as in Elohim no doubt -- the Canaanite one not the Hebrew use as another name for God. Thus, it is possible... To get rid of the notion that other gods besides EL exist they lost the Asherah story and the 70 gods they birthed in Elohim. They created nothing here... They classified it -- basically, Judaism is just a heresy religion from this perspective.

So yes, I am speculating but speculating on a possible fact. It is obvious there are these connections from stolen god ideas to mimicry in scripture and stories. Judaism basically has access to all of the stories, gods, and imagery it wants to use from its predecessors. It takes literally nothing to just start renaming everything, and in most cases that's what it seems like they did. They may have kept, lost, or even changed bits here and there but at this time all of these stories are oral -- there is a certain mutability to be expected. It also still remains possible that the bad guy is EL, via the Enlil conflict -- and if that is the case.. He is the true "Devil"..

 

[Mindmaster]

Enlil sent a flood because he could not sleep due to all the noise humanity was making. Zeus sent a deluge because humans were practicing cannibalism and other atrocities and Yahweh sent a flood because he regretted creating man, the world was full of sin. He also mainly wanted to rid the world of the hybrid offspring of the fallen Watchers.

Same deity or Satan playing a great game of imitation?

Probably cut and paste. Anyway, any of the gods that invoked a reason to kill humans is probably a douche.

 

[outhouse]

These Elohim are probably what the Hebrews call the "angels",

No

Elohim takes a page to describe but more or less it means to make a man as taking one god above others. The term is also tricky because it was a term that evolved in time. And calling Elohim as what Hebrews called angels is not really correct. Saying it is part of El is more correct but even that does not describe the term in complete accuracy

. YHWH in every way is a Canaanite/Mesopotamian mish-mash god

No.

Possibly Midian in nature, and possibly Egyptians made notice, possibly an evolution from the Canaanite pantheon, much is not known is his origin outside the Ugarit mythology, and the Egyptian mention from roughly 1400BC ish

we know Enlil/El/YHWH are the same guy.

NO

Enlil is way to early and has nothing to do with the evolution of El and Yahweh. These two were compiled together.

We also know Hebrews stole

NO

They did not "steal"

They were displaced Canaanites.

They lived Mesopotamian cultures while in exile so these stories were also their stories.



Here is a clue, start providing links and source your statements, and ill agree with you whole hearted.

-- and if that is the case.. He is the true "Devil"

NO. not even using imagination.

 

[outhouse]

EL was the primary deity in their pantheon.

Understood, but only during certain time periods.

Are you familiar with the Kaaba? The black cube was a symbol of EL.

Sources please. many make connections to mecca

Variations include, EL Shaddai. EL of the Mountain and so on.

Understood

 

[Mindmaster]

You are miscalculating the nature of this post, so I'd ask if you'd just stay out of it. From post one this is an exploratory thread, and you don't seem to get it. You're into anti-theism or scientism, or both.. And, I just really don't care to waste my time.

 

[outhouse]

You're into anti-theism or scientism, or both.. And, I just really don't care to waste my time.

No.

Not at all. I have a passion for the truth in theism. Neither of those stereotypes apply.

I'm just not letting you get away with what amounts to rhetoric and you don't like it.

You are miscalculating the nature of this post, so I'd ask if you'd just stay out of it.

You seem to miscalculate what is known historically, for your seem to want to take it out of context to meet your own personal needs and agenda.


I ask you to start providing links and source your statements so you can bring some credibility to where at this moment, there is none.


You seem to have some education on the evolution of the abrahamic deity concept, but its far from accurate, and calling you on it has nothing to do with anti theism.

 

[outhouse]

you don't seem to get it

That's the problem I do get it. I see it forwards and backwards, coming and going.


Your exploring a personal connection you think may exist between the Abrahamic god concept and the true devil, which I personally find absurd being the evolution of the satan and devil concept are not really Jewish as understood by people today.

The jewish term adversary had nothing to do with either El or Yahweh. There is nothing to explore outside imagination here, less the lack of historical knowledge of said concepts.

Here is a clue.

Start providing LINKS and credible SOURCES and if you want to explore that, I would help.

 

[Mindmaster]

No.
I'm just not letting you get away with what amounts to rhetoric and you don't like it.

Still NOT getting it. First, we're normal people here not academia. We're not writing dissertations on the nature of X, we are casually speaking. So casually speak, or do your own homework. You aren't posting sources either, so follow your own rules before you expect me to. Debates do not require reams of evidence for a matter or notion to be discussed, but you know that. You're just trolling...

 

[outhouse]

. First, we're normal people here not academia.

Non sequitur

Debates do not require reams of evidence for a matter or notion to be discussed

Actually your in a debate and they do require evidence.

This is NOT a page for you to Proselytize a LHP view of the Abrahamic concept. You could have stayed in the same faith section if you did not want to be ASKED nicely to substantiate your claims.

Substantiate your wild claims. Your the one making so you ARE required to post credible links and sources.

 

[Mindmaster]

Evidence of what? Better yet, what exactly am I trying to get you to believe? That's probably a better question...

The only things I discussed were my syncretic understandings of these figures. It's philosophical expansion if anything... The way these forums work you have limited areas where you can post these types of posts. You know that too... This post doesn't fit in the other forums being neither a comparing discussion of what exists in other religions, or able to fit in DIR. You know that too...

And, I'm not in a debate with you, but if you want to win one... Here, you win the debate that didn't exist! I don't see anything but troll posts in your profile, so I'm just ignoring you.

Now, back to the nature of the possible YHWH/Enlil/EL combo god.