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Featured Yadavas Hebrews farmers. How come Jews thought Hebrews were slaves?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by River Sea, Aug 2, 2022.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    What ever you say about the LXX does not matter unless first you prove it's dated to the time of Moses, and give the dating methodology. Or even the time of Ptolemy. You have not done both, but are just repeating it thinking repetition makes people swallow anything.

    It's referring to the reader.

    Why should I provide any evidence? It is your burden of proof because it is you who is making a positive claim. You have to first authenticate the Bible to be Gods word, or historically dated to the time, or prove authority via a historical method.

    Lol. It is him who challenges Mosaic authorship. Not me. Maybe you should first understand what people say. Let me say this again.

    "It is Welhausen who challenges Mosaic authorship".

    Do you understand that statement? Why don't you actually study Welhausen's thesis instead?
     
    #161 firedragon, Aug 13, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2022
  2. River Sea

    River Sea Member

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    What is Mosaic
    a surface decoration made by inlaying small pieces of variously colored material to form pictures or patterns the process of making it

    I'm lost.

    what is Mosaic religion
     
    #162 River Sea, Aug 14, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
  3. River Sea

    River Sea Member

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    What religion was pharaoh into
     
    #163 River Sea, Aug 14, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
  4. River Sea

    River Sea Member

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    At Egypt hardly needing straw because build with stone

    How come Pharaoh wanted Hebrews go gather a lot of straw and make bricks?

    where all locations not build with stone
     
    #164 River Sea, Aug 14, 2022
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  5. River Sea

    River Sea Member

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    How come there was conflict in religion back when., how come they couldn't find peace with in it so can move on?
     
    #165 River Sea, Aug 14, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
  6. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Aristotle was a philosopher, not someone who used scientific method. Scientific method is fairly recent in history. Are you familiar with what scientific method is? Observe, hypotheisize, test, record results, conclude, repeat... anything else is simply not scientific method.
     
  7. Bharat Jhunjhunwala

    Bharat Jhunjhunwala TruthPrevails

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    So what is the date of Lxx according to you?
     
  8. Bharat Jhunjhunwala

    Bharat Jhunjhunwala TruthPrevails

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    So everything before this scientific method goes into dustbin. Bible too maybe.?
    There are limits to every method. Brevar child's proposed the textual analysis method, for example.
    Then there have been recent scholars like joseph Campbell. Indigo, we are going into tangents, I feel. All I can say is that no scientific conclusion is final. We must apply our minds. I would like to close this string if this is not agreeable. Thx.
     
  9. Bharat Jhunjhunwala

    Bharat Jhunjhunwala TruthPrevails

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    The reader did not exist at the time of Moses.
    And I still hold that wellhausen does not challenge mosaic authorship. He will not start challenging if u repeat this 100 times. Give me a quote from wellhausen please. I may change my view.
     
  10. Bharat Jhunjhunwala

    Bharat Jhunjhunwala TruthPrevails

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    I have read his prolegomena.
     
  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Dr. Bharat. With all due respect, as a Phd in any field, and as an author and researcher, you must understand that this is a logical fallacy. When someone tells you Dr that when ever you make a historical statement, as a scholar one should have done the research on the original dating and the historicity of the statement. Thus, when you make statements about Ptolemy, and the Septuagint that we have today, you must do the study on the dating. When someone point's out something and asks you about the dating and if you have done that research, you should not turn around and ask the other person this question. You should show the intellectual or epistemic humility and say you don't know and will do so in the future.

    I am no scholar on the Septuagint and it's history. I can give you some very common knowledge among academic circles and I don't have time to do the research at this moment. I will tell you what I remember. The septuagint has various versions. And all of these versions have grave errors in translation. E.g. Isiah 7:14 says Almah which means young woman and the Septuagint says Partinos which means virgin. Adam in Genesis was translated as Anthropos and only in the second episode left as Adam. And when referring to soldiers coming from Egypt and wondering in the wilderness has "listening to God's voice" and exact opposite of "not following God's ordinances" among many many other translation problems. You can find research done by Netherlands Organization for Scientific Research (NWO) & Professors Bons and Joosten.

    The oldest, extant manuscript of the septuagint tradition is from the 4th century codex sinaiticus which is a Bible manuscript. The older reference to the septuagint comes from the patristic tradition which is the only one prior to the council of Nicaea. There is no one septuagint after that. its called the septuagint tradition. You have rumours that it was from the Ptolemic period, but there is no evidence. There are rumours that there were 70 or 72 scholars who did the translation, but there is no evidence. The stemata study of the Septuagint shows so many grave errors in thus dating as you claim.
     
  12. River Sea

    River Sea Member

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    The Septuagint (LXX)
    The Jews upheld the Septuagint very strongly for the first 300 years as the Word of God, but when the Christians took a hold of it, then the Jews rejected it. Then the Jews started rewriting the Septuagint in the 2nd and 3rd centuries to suit their purposes. They were "Making the word of God of none effect through [their] tradition " (Mark 7:13.,)

    Check this out for sure, and this website lots of books yeah!!!!!!!
    A grammar of Septuagint Greek : Conybeare, F. C. (Frederick Cornwallis), 1856-1924 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    book called "Grammar of the Septuagint Greek" by Connie Bearer and Stock, written in 1905:
    Can listen to audio
    Look at Page N76 they use the word Egypt., how come?
    pn76....JPG
     
    #172 River Sea, Aug 15, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2022
  13. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The source book you quoted from provides little in the way of documentation. Jewish scholarship disagrees with the claims made. The Sept was a forced translation of the 5 books of Moses and was not the respected text of the Jews (nor the "word of God").
     
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    It means that things from centuries ago were not scientific method. It doesn't mean they have no value. But they are not as trustworthy. I'm very familiar with Joseph Campbell and love his work. But Joseph Campbell is not a scientist.
     
  15. River Sea

    River Sea Member

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    What are your thoughts about Mitsrayim located in Indus Valley India and not in Egypt?
    I understand Jews claims word Mitzrayim and not word Egypt., but what about Mitsrayim located in India?
     
  16. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    On
    One would have to go back and reimaginr every geographical reference from the outset of Genesis as the use of Mitsrayim is well before the exodus story. If one wanted to imagine all of the geography from the garden if Eden on through in order to find a way to defend the Indus Valley then have fun. That doesn't work for me.
     
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  17. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Let me tell you directly. This is nonsense. A-historical. Seriously, if you think you are helping Dr. Bharat with this kind of thing, it's embarrassing. You have just googled what ever website you could find. That's not how you do some research. Just making statements saying some papiri existed is not enough. You have to name the papiri and when it was dated to and how it was dated.

    This question I have asked both you and Dr. Bharat from the beginning of the thread but it has so far been ignored because you have no evidence and no information. Sorry but this is the obvious fact.

    @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

    The Septuagint or the LXX is mostly legendary. The legend stems from a so called letter written by a person called Aristeas which mentions the Jewish "Torah", not the Tanakh or the Septuagint as we know today. It merely mentions that the kind of Egypt commissioned 72 people in total, taking 6 from each Jewish 12 tribes did a Greek translation of the Jewish law. But there are no extant manuscripts of the Septuagint dated to the time. This is only visible in "a letter", and this "letter" has no content of the translation. It is mentioning the legend. And if you tell a Jew that "Jews upheld the Septuagint in the three centuries AD as God's word, they probably will cringe a little and throw your quick googling pseudo scholarship in the air. The Jews don't hold a candle for the Septuagint, and they don't need to. The translation is absurdly bad that it could not have been done by a Jew, and Jews can read Hebrew and they have their sources who know Hebrew if they don't read Hebrew as an individual. The Jews that I have come across cringe when people say this.

    Actually, there is no point speaking about historicity because you are not aware of any history, nor are you interested. You have an idea, and you want to affirm it with any information you get on the internet. That's a confirmation bias.

    Mind you, even this letter attributed to Aristeas is declared pseudepigrapha.

    Later.
     
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  18. River Sea

    River Sea Member

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    There were the dates of the books
    A grammar of Septuagint Greek : Conybeare, F. C. (Frederick Cornwallis), 1856-1924 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    book called "Grammar of the Septuagint Greek" by Connie Bearer and Stock, written in 1905

    Here's date of Moses birth birth at 1525 BCE

    A thought I notice is anyone in any religion can drink from light within them., I notice this., that light teaches and allows all to drink from light and isn't picky with what religion, because we all carry inner 'I' in us, so I think religion just helps people to connect to that inner 'I' that's in them.

    What are your thoughts about that?
     
  19. Bharat Jhunjhunwala

    Bharat Jhunjhunwala TruthPrevails

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    I am giving below extract from my paper published in Journal of Indo-Judaic Studies. THis does not relate directly to the Exodus butthese scholars indicate a connection between the Torah and Indus Valley. Thx.
    William Jones

    Sir Williams Jones was a judge at the Supreme Court at Calcutta (now known as Kolkata) and the founder of the Asiatic Society. He traced the parallels between certain Biblical and Hindu persons in the Presidential Address given to the Society in 1788 titled “On the Chronology of the Hindus.” (Jones, William, The Works of Sir William Jones in Six Volumes, Vol I, G G and J Robinson, London, 1799, page 313). He suggested that Biblical Adam was parallel to Hindu Swayambhu who were both born, in his reckoning, in 4006 BCE; Biblical Noah was parallel to Hindu Vaivaswat who both were born in 2949 BCE; and Biblical Raamah was parallel to Hindu Rama who both were born in 2029 BCE.

    He noted that Adam and Swayambhu were the first human beings and that Noah and Vaivaswat lived at the time of the Flood in the two religions. However, he considered Biblical Raamah, son of Cush, to be parallel to Hindu Rama apparently on etymological considerations alone. He did not draw any parallels between the narratives of Raamah and Rama. He also did not discuss the parallels between Cain and Indra; and between Moses and Krishna. Further, he did not discuss the theological parallels between these persons.

    T W Doane
    Thomas William Doane was a pioneer of free thought. He published his sole literary work Bible Myths and their Parallels in other Religions in 1882 (Doane, T W, Bible Myths and their Parallels in other Religions, J. W. Bouton, New York, 1882, The Project Gutenberg eBook of Bible Myths and their Parallels in Other Religions, by Thomas William Doane., Retrieved July 22, 2020). He drew parallels between the narratives of the Bible and the Hindus but did not look at the genealogies, similarities of names and theologies. The non-consideration of genealogies made it possible for him to draw a parallel between narratives at different genealogical positions. Yet he made some fine parallels.

    He drew a parallel between Adam and Swayambhu on the strength of both living at a place with four rivers; and Noah and Vaivaswat on the basis of the Deluge. These parallels are same as suggested by us. However, there are numerous cases where he jumps the genealogical position. We give two examples.

    He associated the Tree of Life mentioned in the narrative of Adam with the Soma plant mentioned in the narrative of Indra. He ignored the statement in the Hindu texts that Indra lived in the fourth generation from Swayambhu—whom we show was more likely parallel to Adam. Thus there is a gap of four generations between the Tree of Life and the Soma Plant.

    Second, he associated Abraham with Harishchandra on the basis of both having offered their son in a failed sacrifice. However, the main narrative of Abraham—going to the south, wife being taken to the Pharaoh, separation from Lot, and expelling Hagar have no parallels in the narrative of Harishchandra. There is no parallel between the names Abraham and Harishchandra either. Thus, while Doane furthered the study of the parallels, the specific parallels outlined by him left much to be desired.

    Mircea Eliade
    Mircea Eliade was Professor at Universities of Bucharest and Chicago. He published Patterns in Comparative Religion in 1958 and his seminal work Myth and Reality in 1968 (Eliade, Mircea, Patterns in Comparative Religion, Sheed & Ward, New York, 1958; Mircea Eliade, Myth and Reality, Harper & Row, Publishers, New York, 1963). In these books he brought together narratives from across the world and shew that underlying them were certain common patterns. Like Doane, we find that, in the context of Biblical-Hindu parallels, those drawn by him did not often match with the genealogical positions.

    He said, for example, that the creation of Eve from Adam’s ribs was parallel to the primeval pair of Yama and Yami described in the Rig Veda. He ignored though that Adam and Eve married while Yama and Yami did not marry. Eliade did not examine the parallel between Adam and Eve, and Swayambhu and Shatarupa. The creation of these primeval couples is associated with splitting of the body and they were the progenitors of the human race in both the religions.

    Like Doane, Eliade too associates the Tree of Life described in the Bible with the Soma plant mentioned in the Rig Veda.

    Joseph Campbell
    Joseph John Campbell was a professor of literature at Sarah Lawrence College in New York. He was influenced by Indian philosopher Jiddu Krshnamurti. He traced the parallels in the Hindu and other world narratives in Oriental Mythology published in 1962 which is part of his trilogy of Primitive-, Oriental- and Occidental Mythology (Campbell, Joseph, The Masks of God: Oriental Mythology, Secker & Warburg, London, 1962).

    Unlike Doane and Eliade, Campbell rightly drew parallel between the making of woman from man’s ribs in Genesis and the splitting of the primeval being into husband and wife as described in the Hindu texts.

    A number of other examples, however, face a chronological problem. Campbell identified the Tree of Knowledge of the Bible with the pipal tree (ficus religosa) at the time of Buddha. However, the two mentions are separated by three millennia. Campbell did not explore the possible parallel between the Tree of Knowledge or the Tree of Life and the Kalpa-vriksha or “wish-fulling tree” that is mentioned at the time of Swayambhu.

    He drew a parallel between the Biblical narrative of the Deluge and the Rig Vedic narrative of Indra killing Vritra and releasing waters that were held up by Vritra. Campbell ignored that Noah would have been mighty happy if the pent up waters had been released and the Deluge abated. The clear parallel to the Biblical Deluge is available in the Fish Incarnation at the time of Vaivaswat which Campbell ignored.
     
  20. Bharat Jhunjhunwala

    Bharat Jhunjhunwala TruthPrevails

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    You got me wrong Fire. The scientific method requires one to make an hypothesis and then look for data for or against it. One does not collect data that are not relevant. In the present case, the hypothesis is that the name "Mitsrayim" did not exist before 1300 BCE and the Biblical texts tell of Mistrayim, not Egypt. As far as I know, there is no dispute about these facts. The LXX and KJV certainly refer to the place as Mitsrayim. So why should I look into the dating of LXX etc. when there is no dispute about it. If there were an ancient Hebrew or Greek text that used "Egypt" then the question of dating of LXX would arise. So, with due respects, the data you are asking for is not relevant to the hypothesis under study.
    Further, you have not responded to the points about the Bible problems; and also to the papers I uploaded. So, I will not be drawn into an issue that is not relavant. Said with respcet, not arrogance.I ma giving the points below for your kind ready reference. Thx.

    I give very briefly how some of the major problems of geography of the pre-Exodus Biblical narrative and how they are resolved in the Indus Valley.

    1] Four rivers not known in West Asia. Indus: We have 4 rivers emerging from Pushkar in India. This place is believed to be the seat of creation in the Hindu beliefs.

    2] No Flood of 150 days in West Asia. Waters of Mesopotamia drain out soon. Indus: The city of Jalore (“city of water”) is located in a bowl-like geological structure where rain water stays put.

    3] No tower. Ziggurats are not towers since width > height. Indus: Temple towers of Anuppur.

    4] No land between two rivers that was bequeathed to Abraham. Indus: The two rivers Ghaggar and Yamuna enclose a fertile area.

    5] No natural equivalent of the separation of waters of Yam Suf 1. Bitter Lakes would not be crossable in winds of 100 mph+, and they are located ON the short route to Israel. Indus: A mud volcano may have arrested the waters of Indus River and allowed the Hebrews to cross on land.

    6] There is no suggestion for the location of Yam Suf 2 (Gen. 33:10). Indus: Hmun-e-Mashkel lies dot on the route.

    7] No volcano in Sinai. Indus: Taftan. It is a live volcano emitting sulfuric fumes even today.

    8] Yam Suf 3 is supposed to be Gulf of Aqaba. But no reason is forthcoming as to why Hebrews would go south to Aqaba. Indus: Shatt al-Arab.
     
    #180 Bharat Jhunjhunwala, Aug 16, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2022
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