Yadavas Hebrews farmers. How come Jews thought Hebrews were slaves?

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

I'm just going to leave the discussion. Your position lacks scholarship, and actually goes further to reject what the consensus of the scholars say, and I just have no patience for that.

Thanks for the conversation. Maybe there will be another occasion.

 

[firedragon]

Unfortunate. But let me clarify there are many issues regarding LXX. There is no dispute that all mention mitsrayim. Thanks for the conversation.

Dr. Bharat. Mitsrayim is a Hebrew word with a plural ending. Bottomline is, it's Hebrew.

You are saying now that the LXX mentions the Hebrew word Mitsrayim. Do you truly understand that it's not a valid statement to say that a Greek document would mention Mitsrayim?

The Septuagint is in Koine Greek. It does not mention Mitsrayim. It says "AIGYPTON".

Cheers.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Dr. Bharat. Mitsrayim is a Hebrew word with a plural ending. Bottomline is, it's Hebrew.

You are saying now that the LXX mentions the Hebrew word Mitsrayim. Do you truly understand that it's not a valid statement to say that a Greek document would mention Mitsrayim?

The Septuagint is in Koine Greek. It does not mention Mitsrayim. It says "AIGYPTON".

Cheers.

Now that is a good point. Thank you. I will do research on that.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Dr. Bharat. Mitsrayim is a Hebrew word with a plural ending. Bottomline is, it's Hebrew.

You are saying now that the LXX mentions the Hebrew word Mitsrayim. Do you truly understand that it's not a valid statement to say that a Greek document would mention Mitsrayim?

The Septuagint is in Koine Greek. It does not mention Mitsrayim. It says "AIGYPTON".

Cheers.

Fire. I tried to see Egypt in LXX. The interlinear translations I can find do not seem to mention Egypt in the narrative of Abraham. There is no MITSRAYIM, no AIGYPTON. Can you guide me, why so? Thx.

 

[firedragon]

Fire. I tried to see Egypt in LXX. The interlinear translations I can find do not seem to mention Egypt in the narrative of Abraham. There is no MITSRAYIM, no AIGYPTON. Can you guide me, why so? Thx.

1. I don't know what that source is you have shown up there. But I would recommend that you don't look for Mitsrayim in any version of the LXX because they polar opposite and different languages. It's like someone who dropped his key in the car park, looking for the key under a street light because that's where the light is. Don't go looking for what you want in any document, try to discover what it says instead. Then you avoid a confirmation bias.

2. You are looking at Genesis 13 and 40. There is no Genesis 13 and 40 in the oldest dated LXX to have been found ever in history. Try and check Numbers, chapter 20, verse 5 (In the original manuscript)

3. If it's a septuagint translation with the Greek text, check Genesis, chapter 12, verse 10.

If you want to see an original manuscript scan here you go (The required word circled in red). And the rest of the references are also attached and marked for your purview.

 

[River Sea]

View attachment 65600 View attachment 65599

1. I don't know what that source is you have shown up there. But I would recommend that you don't look for Mitsrayim in any version of the LXX because they polar opposite and different languages. It's like someone who dropped his key in the car park, looking for the key under a street light because that's where the light is. Don't go looking for what you want in any document, try to discover what it says instead. Then you avoid a confirmation bias.

2. You are looking at Genesis 13 and 40. There is no Genesis 13 and 40 in the oldest dated LXX to have been found ever in history. Try and check Numbers, chapter 20, verse 5 (In the original manuscript)

3. If it's a septuagint translation with the Greek text, check Genesis, chapter 12, verse 10.

If you want to see an original manuscript scan here you go (The required word circled in red). And the rest of the references are also attached and marked for your purview.

About original manuscript
I right click on image that you shared and then clicking on search image with google lens., then highlight word and search text and found

The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament, with an English translation; and with various readings and critical notes. Gr. & Eng

 

[firedragon]

About original manuscript
I right click on image that you shared and then clicking on search image with google lens., then highlight word and search text and found

The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament, with an English translation; and with various readings and critical notes. Gr. & Eng

You should know how to identify an original manuscript. One small hint is, if there is English in it, it cant be an original koine greek manuscript. So go to my post again, and look at an original manuscript. To make sure I don't see some unbelievably absurd research in the next post, I will upload this manuscript again. Next time, if you want to know something you don't understand, just ask with humility rather than doing such quick google searches without even having a clue what a manuscript is.

 

[River Sea]

You should know how to identify an original manuscript. One small hint is, if there is English in it, it cant be an original koine greek manuscript. So go to my post again, and look at an original manuscript. To make sure I don't see some unbelievably absurd research in the next post, I will upload this manuscript again. Next time, if you want to know something you don't understand, just ask with humility rather than doing such quick google searches without even having a clue what a manuscript is.

View attachment 65627

I don't know how to find original manual. So can you give instructions how?

You wrote "If you want to see an original manuscript scan here you go (The required word circled in red). And the rest of the references are also attached and marked for your purview.)"

I seen 3 images you shared as I click on, but it gives no instructions how you found?
I see no English what I found? However is copy of original right? So what steps would I need to take to go further 'till original? I snip this to show. scroll up other message, as there's a url. Ok I got that far, how do I go to original like you did? What steps did you take?

 

[River Sea]

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala @firedragon

Wow., I look to find original manual., I'm in the process of learning and learning how to ask questions. https://www.researchgate.net/search/publication?q=Mitsrayim

After you go there, scroll down and look who I see...

Ok back to my journey how to find original manuals as well as how to ask questions so can learn

 

[River Sea]

Here's random original manual., so I've been able to do that so far, this random
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...fol-8v-p-24-8-th-9-th-century_fig21_349711568

 

[River Sea]

@firedragon what are the steps., cause I can see that in the google lens., it feel like I'm getting there some what: I snip this to show

 

[River Sea]

I notice your name fire light, can you relate with light in us feeds us burn in our spirit heart? A question I have

@firedragon can you give me step by step how you find original manual that's what I ask

I know what this is about Mitsrayim in India and can we find original manual., as you've been asking for

So then the word Egypt in Greek is Αίγυπτος
you given example with images. But not sure how you gotten there?
If I paste Αίγυπτος and find original manual., I'm online.,

 

[River Sea]

View attachment 65600 View attachment 65599

1. I don't know what that source is you have shown up there. But I would recommend that you don't look for Mitsrayim in any version of the LXX because they polar opposite and different languages. It's like someone who dropped his key in the car park, looking for the key under a street light because that's where the light is. Don't go looking for what you want in any document, try to discover what it says instead. Then you avoid a confirmation bias.

2. You are looking at Genesis 13 and 40. There is no Genesis 13 and 40 in the oldest dated LXX to have been found ever in history. Try and check Numbers, chapter 20, verse 5 (In the original manuscript)

3. If it's a septuagint translation with the Greek text, check Genesis, chapter 12, verse 10.

If you want to see an original manuscript scan here you go (The required word circled in red). And the rest of the references are also attached and marked for your purview.

This is where I was lost., you wrote scan here., where does one scan?
Than I click on your imagines, but it didn't say where to go., it only shown imagines.

Maybe what I should of done then is ask you how and where to go

 

[firedragon]

I don't know how to find original manual. So can you give instructions how?

I gave you a scan.

Google "Codex Sinaiticus". It's the oldest extant manuscript in the world. It's online for anyone to see.

I seen 3 images you shared as I click on, but it gives no instructions how you found?

I think you are doing nonsense.

@firedragon what are the steps., cause I can see that in the google lens., it feel like I'm getting there some what: I snip this to show
View attachment 65638

What do you mean "How"? What do you want to do?

Here you go. Go to this website. "codexsinaiticus.org".

This is where I was lost., you wrote scan here., where does one scan?

I didn't say "scan here". I said a long sentence.

"If you want to see an original manuscript scan here you go "

Please do some real studying. Everything is not google. Especially since you are propagating something, not just learning.

you can find the oldest Septuagint manuscript Codex Sinaiticus in this website. "www.codexsinaiticus.org".

 

[firedragon]

you given example with images. But not sure how you gotten there?

I have done real research. How you get there is by doing some real research, not googling in a few minutes.

If I paste Αίγυπτος and find original manual., I'm online.,

You cant cut and paste and ask for "original manuscripts" on the internet. It's just a common word.

View attachment 65637 Here's random original manual., so I've been able to do that so far, this random
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...fol-8v-p-24-8-th-9-th-century_fig21_349711568

Yeah. So some random manuscript. Nice. I am not even going to click on it because it's irrelevant. But the markings are on a different word. It's the Tetragrammaton, not Egypt.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

View attachment 65600 View attachment 65599

1. I don't know what that source is you have shown up there. But I would recommend that you don't look for Mitsrayim in any version of the LXX because they polar opposite and different languages. It's like someone who dropped his key in the car park, looking for the key under a street light because that's where the light is. Don't go looking for what you want in any document, try to discover what it says instead. Then you avoid a confirmation bias.

2. You are looking at Genesis 13 and 40. There is no Genesis 13 and 40 in the oldest dated LXX to have been found ever in history. Try and check Numbers, chapter 20, verse 5 (In the original manuscript)

3. If it's a septuagint translation with the Greek text, check Genesis, chapter 12, verse 10.

If you want to see an original manuscript scan here you go (The required word circled in red). And the rest of the references are also attached and marked for your purview.

Ilooked up Codex Sinaiticus. It seems to give only Genesis 21-24; and then only selected verses. Also it gives no English translation and I do not know Greek. It also has no Book of Exodus. So I am not able to either confirm or deny that the Codex uses Egypt rather than Mitsrayim.

I looked up Greek at Genesis 40 with Book Summary - Interlinear Study Bible - StudyLight.org. I suggest you may expalin why this is incorrect. As far as I can understand, Interlinear is better than a translation because one can see what is in the original and wha. You will see that in this interlinear there is no Mitsrayim and no Egypt in the Interlinear. Rest assured, I am not looking for Mitsrayim. I am only trying to find what was the place named in the narratives of Abraham and Moses.

 

[firedragon]

Ilooked up Codex Sinaiticus. It seems to give only Genesis 21-24; and then only selected verses. Also it gives no English translation and I do not know Greek. It also has no Book of Exodus. So I am not able to either confirm or deny that the Codex uses Egypt rather than Mitsrayim.

View attachment 65656
I looked up Greek at Genesis 40 with Book Summary - Interlinear Study Bible - StudyLight.org. I suggest you may expalin why this is incorrect. As far as I can understand, Interlinear is better than a translation because one can see what is in the original and wha. You will see that in this interlinear there is no Mitsrayim and no Egypt in the Interlinear. Rest assured, I am not looking for Mitsrayim. I am only trying to find what was the place named in the narratives of Abraham and Moses.

Lol. I gave you all the details already Dr. Bharat. Every single thing you said was already given, and I even gave you the exact reference of the exact verse to check on the exact extant manuscript. I have a feeling you are not attempting to understand anything whatsoever. It's bad scholarship and extremely bad temperament of a scholar.

In order to confirm or deny a codex using or not a particular Hebrew word, it is absolutely nonsensical to look for Hebrew words in a greek book. I can't believe the world has come to this level of low.

Let me ask you something. Forget "Mitsrayim". Can you show me the plural "Im" in any Greek document ever found in history? One book in history. Just show the plural "im". This is like looking for the English word Thames in the Sanskrit book Yajurved or an arabic book Qur'an. This is absurd. I have never experienced such thinking.

Different languages could only have translations.

Let me make a challenge to you Dr. Bharat so that rather than asking for so many details you will do one single research.

Show me one single manuscript of the Septuagint ever found in the history of the world with the word "Mitsrayim".

Can you?

Secondly Dr. Bharat. Your research method is so poor. It's purely like an absolute amateur or a brand new sophomore doing quick googling as research. Well, honestly even a sophomore will read up.

The Codex Sinaiticus (I am saying this for the umpteenth time) is the oldest existing extant septuagint manuscript so far found. If it does not have some parts of the book, look in the parts that are available.

Again, your research is like losing your key in the park but searching for it at home because you have a light bulb at home. that's not how you do research. Buy a flashlight, and go to the park, and look for the key where you dropped it.

Firstly, for a person speaking about septuagint so much you should have known where to look and for what in the first place. Second, you should have the humility as a Phd in any field make some effort and ask questions where ever necessary. I made the effort to look for the word you require, take screen shots, circle them, give you the greek, give you the translation, give you the manuscript, and give you even the website to see the manuscript. Still you are talking about confirming if a Hebrew word for Egypt is existing in a greek manuscript.

I have never heard anything absurd in my life from a scholar who has written a book on the subject.

 

[firedragon]

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Dr. Bharat. I would recommend you using a septuagint interlinear. I don't know the website you are using. I did click on the link and the verse you had shown does not seem to have the greek word for Egypt. I don't know why, and it's not relevant really. If they don't have the greek word, something is going on. Because the oldest manuscript has the word everywhere. I mean everywhere. You just have to make an effort to look.

So dump your source since it's bad. Go to the primary source. www.codexsinaiticus.org.

Peace.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

There is no indication it is addressing the prophet Muhammed.



Dr. Bharat. I think it's better to drop Welhausen.



The thing is this, you are quoting wellhausen (not quoting but mentioning his name), and then you are making statements from the Bible like "WHEN Abraham went to Mizraim" as if that really is historical. That's a contradiction. In that case you have to claim the source of those particular verses you pick are historically established, or that they are God's words, or that welhausens criticism is just rubbish. you have to pick a side.

Everyone knows that there were many early mentions of the name mizraim associated with Egypt. I am in no way propagating that the exodus definitely happened in Egypt at all, but your association is quite flawed because lets say Abraham lived before the Akkadian text, how do you know when Abraham existed? If your research is that extensive, why do you trust the Biblical dates and timelines? Do you have any historical evidence that Abraham existed in that time? Do you really believe Adam existed 6000 years ago? The first man? Because this timeline is including Adam. And if you are invalidating the Akkadian text that was written over a millennium before the new age, why do you quote the Qur'an which is less than half the age of the Akkadian writings?

Also, who wrote those texts in the Bible? Was it truly Moses's direct tradition? Did Moses or even Abraham for that matter really call Egypt by the name Mizraim. Maybe their language was a little different. What matters is what the writer meant when he was writing.

Don't you think?

I tired to look up other Greek Interlinear for Genesis 13 to see if they mentioned "Egypt" by whatever name. The only other interlinear (attached) also gives no "Egypt."

These give only NT:

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm

GREEK-ENGLISH INTERLINEAR BIBLE

These give Greek but no English

Genesis 13 ανεβη δε αβραμ εξ αιγυπτου αυτος και η γυνη αυτου και παντα τα αυτου και λωτ μετ αυτου εις την ερημον

Read the Bible text :: academic-bible.com

Gn 13

No word-by-word

katapi New Study Bible: Parallel Greek English Hebrew Old Testament with Book, Chapter Selection

Septuagint Genesis, Ch. 13 - Part 1

The only other word-by-word has no Egypt

Genesis 13 with Book Summary - Interlinear Study Bible - StudyLight.org

Five links to Greek—None have word-by-word

Septuagint (LXX) Online Texts

So please provide me with word-by-word translation of Sinatic so that I may see if Egypt is mentioned at all.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

There is no indication it is addressing the prophet Muhammed.



Dr. Bharat. I think it's better to drop Welhausen.



The thing is this, you are quoting wellhausen (not quoting but mentioning his name), and then you are making statements from the Bible like "WHEN Abraham went to Mizraim" as if that really is historical. That's a contradiction. In that case you have to claim the source of those particular verses you pick are historically established, or that they are God's words, or that welhausens criticism is just rubbish. you have to pick a side.

Everyone knows that there were many early mentions of the name mizraim associated with Egypt. I am in no way propagating that the exodus definitely happened in Egypt at all, but your association is quite flawed because lets say Abraham lived before the Akkadian text, how do you know when Abraham existed? If your research is that extensive, why do you trust the Biblical dates and timelines? Do you have any historical evidence that Abraham existed in that time? Do you really believe Adam existed 6000 years ago? The first man? Because this timeline is including Adam. And if you are invalidating the Akkadian text that was written over a millennium before the new age, why do you quote the Qur'an which is less than half the age of the Akkadian writings?

Also, who wrote those texts in the Bible? Was it truly Moses's direct tradition? Did Moses or even Abraham for that matter really call Egypt by the name Mizraim. Maybe their language was a little different. What matters is what the writer meant when he was writing.

Don't you think?

I tried to find other Greek-English Interlinear Genesis 13. The only other text also does not give Egypt by whatever name. Pl see links below. So please provide me with English translation of Sinatic so that I can see whether Egypt is mentioned there. Thx.

These give only NT:

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm

GREEK-ENGLISH INTERLINEAR BIBLE

These give Greek but no English

Genesis 13 ανεβη δε αβραμ εξ αιγυπτου αυτος και η γυνη αυτου και παντα τα αυτου και λωτ μετ αυτου εις την ερημον

Read the Bible text :: academic-bible.com

Gn 13

No word-by-word

katapi New Study Bible: Parallel Greek English Hebrew Old Testament with Book, Chapter Selection

Septuagint Genesis, Ch. 13 - Part 1

The only other word-by-word has no Egypt

Genesis 13 with Book Summary - Interlinear Study Bible - StudyLight.org

Five links to Greek—None have word-by-word

Septuagint (LXX) Online Texts