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Featured Yadavas Hebrews farmers. How come Jews thought Hebrews were slaves?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by River Sea, Aug 2, 2022.

  1. Bharat Jhunjhunwala

    Bharat Jhunjhunwala TruthPrevails

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    AS far as I know the first reference to Mitsrayim in the Bible is in the story of Abraham c. 2000 BCE. And, there was no place known as "Mitsrayim" in West Asia at that time. So we need to look at that.
     
  2. Bharat Jhunjhunwala

    Bharat Jhunjhunwala TruthPrevails

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    You got me wrong Fire. The scientific method requires one to make an hypothesis and then look for data for or against it. One does not collect data that are not relevant. In the present case, the hypothesis is that the name "Mitsrayim" did not exist before 1300 BCE and the Biblical texts tell of Mistrayim, not Egypt. As far as I know, there is no dispute about these facts. The LXX and KJV certainly refer to the place as Mitsrayim. So why should I look into the dating of LXX etc. when there is no dispute about it. If there were an ancient Hebrew or Greek text that used "Egypt" then the question of dating of LXX would arise. So, with due respects, the data you are asking for is not relevant to the hypothesis under study.
    Further, you have not responded to the points about the Bible problems; and also to the papers I uploaded. So, I will not be drawn into an issue that is not relavant. Said with respcet, not arrogance. Thx.
     
  3. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    If you want to understand the origin of the name and its identification with Egypt, feel free to read this, as it should explain everything.

    Your thesis must start with a particular preconceived notion -- that the current Jews are not the biblical people. This must be your argument because if one works backwards from the current Jews, through Jewish history, one sees a focus on the land of Israel and all the archaeology in that region. One sees all biblical references as centered on that land and that region including the human geography. The only way to separate the text from the people is by saying that the people are not the ones in the text. This (secondarily) also then claims that the text is not divine nor perfect, but subject to human authorship, changes and errors.

    As I don't subscribe to your particular driving agenda, I'll simply let you read the scholarship which I linked to and bow out of conversation. Have fun with your project.
     
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  4. River Sea

    River Sea Member

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    Please know I'm acting goofy and I realize this is how I really learn is by acting goofy - it makes learning fun., so keep that in mind as you read as I learn this time zone with letters.

    Redo of time as I'd forgotten to add AC or is it AD., lets find out and learn
    google search says, "First, it is not AC (After Christ), but AD (Anno Domini). Anno Domini, in Medieval Latin from where the term has been borrowed, means “in the year of the Lord”. Jesus Christ is said to be born between 6 BC and 4 BC and he was crucified between 30 AD and 36 AD."

    me writing., who is Anno Domini.,

    ok so due to I don't know do I write AC or AD., I'll write both so here it goes

    There were the dates of the books: actual books.
    A grammar of Septuagint Greek : Conybeare, F. C. (Frederick Cornwallis), 1856-1924 AC or AD : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    book called "Grammar of the Septuagint Greek" by Connie Bearer and Stock, written in 1905 AC or AD
    Here's date of Moses birth birth at 1525 BCE or could that be BDE if speaking of wonderful Anno Domini., see the D will stand for Donini., drop the A for Anno., but could make sure to have B. include the B., before Domini., however I notice C., so maybe Donini isn't included in the Before C., I'm learning., this strange time stuff., from who's this lucky person who gets this time attach to., is it Christ or Donini or Jesus or who? But what is christ., how come Jesus gets to have christ attach, is it christ time zone., I had light as true time., light lives in all of us., so what does christ mean in all religions including Hindu religion., can we explore that in ties to yadavas hebrews too? Because how come not J., should it be either D or J? Donini or Jesus

    Here's date of Moses birth birth at 1525 BCE gets a C not a D., ok.,

    please understand this is how I learn., by out loud what the letters time zone., who is Donini., never heard of Donini., and now I'm acting goofy. Donini meet Jesus. Jesus meet Donini., the letter time zone is attach to you both., sorry Jesus no J though., its C., uh?

    For the fun of it, you want to see a youtube video of Taftan volcano., hang on, this dude struggle to breath in the gas., lets breath in gas, hold lungs feeeeel that gas feeel it in the lungs, lets feeeeel that gas yes yes yes

    7] No volcano in Sinai. Indus: Taftan. It is a live
    volcano emitting sulfuric fumes even today.

    Iran its your turn., we're going to feel that gas in our lungs., breath in that gas., from this volcano., lets do it , breeeaaaath breeeaaath in that gas hold it, don't let that gas out. breeeeaaath

    here's the youtube video of taftan volcano

     
    #184 River Sea, Aug 16, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2022
  5. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    You are picking and choosing people who you think will confirm your bias. But you are not representing them correctly.

    For example, Joseph Campbell was all about Jungian Archetypes. He believed that stories had common themes across culture and down through time because we have these species memories. Any commonality between Jewish myth and Hindu myth is due to these archetypes in our subconscious mind. It has absolutely nothing to do with the story spreading from India to the Levant, nor is he saying these are even historical figures. Your literal treatment of his views on myth are so out of whack that I'd be at my computer an hour trying to put things into words that you can understand, and I will probably still fail, because your tendency to take things literally is an unconscious preference on your part that you cannot really control.
     
  6. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Those are not dates of actual documents. Anyway, I have asked specifically, whats the document, whats the dating, what's the dating methodology used, but you have not even hinted at a response to that. So I will not engage with this anymore. There is no point whatsoever. Have a great day.
     
  7. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    You are wrong. You have not done the research. There is a lot of dispute over it, and I have even given you a synopsis of it.

    I don't see this going anywhere.

    Cheers.
     
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Dr. Bharat. The point I was trying to make is that when ever you make a statement about a certain document as basis for your thesis, and some claims are made like Ptolemy ordered 72 scholars to come and translate the Tanakh to make the LXX etc etc you should have done the research already about that particular statement.

    There are lots of inconsistencies in your thesis's in this thread and you have never responded to any of them even though they were asked many many times. Hope you understand that without addressing them, positing some other arguments is a red herring, and that too is meant with all due respect.

    It's impossible to engage with the two gentlemen here pushing a particular book who do that and keep doing that. I can see that you have read a lot on this topic, but that's not making a scholarly thesis. Most of your premises and arguments are based on third party ideas, not primary research or primary documents. It's highly superficial.

    Hope you understand.
     
  9. River Sea

    River Sea Member

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  10. River Sea

    River Sea Member

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    I started this thread asking are Hebrews Yadavas slaves or farmers? I was asked what I read. I answer what I read.
     
  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I didn't ask that. Go back and read what I have always asked.

    Have a great day.
     
  12. River Sea

    River Sea Member

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    Here's an example @Bharat Jhunjhunwala discovering., and what does one do when discovering? Does one ignore or explore?

    Then, while visiting the city of Pushkar in Rajasthan in the
    eighties, I found four rivers flowing in four directions. I was
    reading the Bible and the Quran at the same time. I noticed that
    the Bible and the Quran also tell of four rivers flowing from the
    Garden of Eden or Paradise. I wondered whether the four rivers
    of Pushkar were the four rivers of Garden of Eden or Paradise
     
  13. Bharat Jhunjhunwala

    Bharat Jhunjhunwala TruthPrevails

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    I am willing to respond to anything that is relevant. Please show the relevance of dating of LXX to the issue under discussion. There are so many points I have mentioned that ARE relevant and you have chosen to ignore them. You keep pushing one point about LXX dating that is NOT RELEVANT. So, yes, I don't see this going anywhere, unfortunately.
     
  14. Bharat Jhunjhunwala

    Bharat Jhunjhunwala TruthPrevails

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    That Campbell was showing persistence of archetypes does not negate the precise evidences he provides.It is not correct, in my humble view, to assert that "It has absolutely nothing to do with the story spreading from India to the Levant, nor is he saying these are even historical figures." I did not say that Campbell says they spread from Indus Valley. I am only providing 4 scholarly evidence for an ancient connection. You asked for scholarly evidences. So let us please focus on whether there is a scholarly evidence for connection between Torah and Indus Valley.
     
  15. Bharat Jhunjhunwala

    Bharat Jhunjhunwala TruthPrevails

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    Thank you for your question. I am challenging the belief that geography of the pre-Exodus Bible matches with that of the Levant. I have no trouble with post-Exodus geography. Please consider the following:

    We find that 34 places listed in the endnote are mentioned in both the pre- and post-Exodus narratives of the Bible (Ai, Assyria, Avith, Beersheba, Bethel, Canaan, Dothan, Edom, Egypt, Gerar, Gilead, Goshen, Havilah, Hebron, Jordan, Kadesh, Kiriath Arba, Luz, Mahanaim, Midian, Moab, Moreh, Moriah, Negev, Paran, Penuel, Philistine, Yam Suph (Reed Sea), Seir, Shechem, Shur, Succoth, Zeboim and Zoar). Our hypothesis is that the pre-Exodus events were located in the Indus Valley and the post-Exodus events were located in Yisrael. The mention of these 34 places in both the narratives could be explained by postulating that the Hebrews carried names of these places from the Indus Valley and gave them to certain places in Yisrael that now carry these names. We see that migrants frequently give names of their home locations to their host locations. For example, the names Liverpool, London, and York have been carried from the United Kingdom and given to Liverpool in New South Wales, Australia; London in Ontario, Canada; and New York City in the United States.

    In this same manner we suggest that the Hebrews gave the name “Aravalli” of the mountain in the Indus Valley, modified as “Ararat,” to the mountain in Turkey that carries that name today. They gave the name “Meru,” modified as “Moriah,” to the Temple Mount at Jerusalem. They gave the name “Yamuna,” modified as “Jordan,” to the river of Yisrael that carries this name today.

    At the same time, 27 places listed in the endnote are mentioned only in the pre-Exodus narratives of the Bible and not mentioned in the post-Exodus narratives (Abel Mizraim, Admah,* Atad, Beer Lahai Roi, Bela, Eder, Elam, Ellasar, Galeed, Gomorrah,* Haran,* Machpelah, Mamre, Pau, Padan Aram,* Peniel, Rehoboth,* River of Egypt,* Shinar,* Siddim, Sin,* Sinai,* Sitnah, Sodom,* Tidal, Ur of the Chaldeans,* Zeboim* and Zin.* Place names marked with asterisk are mentioned in the post-Exodus narrative always alluding to the pre-Exodus events). These include important places like Sodom, Gomorrah, Siddim, and Sinai. This is surprising because the Hebrews travelled frequently through the areas where these places are allegedly located in Yisrael. They would have passed through these places after reaching Yisrael and could not have but noticed the existence of these places. For example, Sodom is allegedly located on the banks of the Dead Sea in Yisrael. The Hebrews passed through this area many times after they reached Yisrael. They would have remembered the existence of Sodom here. But we do not find them mentioning this city in their post-Exodus narratives as a living city. All references to Sodom in the post-Exodus narrative invariably refer to the events that took place here before the Exodus took place.

    This leads us to suggest that, unlike the earlier list of 34 places, the migrants did not give the names of these 27 places to places in Yisrael. The absence of mention of these cities in the post-Exodus narratives as living places suggests that these were located at a place other than Yisrael, possibly in the Indus Valley.
     
  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I'm just going to leave the discussion. Your position lacks scholarship, and actually goes further to reject what the consensus of the scholars say, and I just have no patience for that.
     
  17. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    So I will take the exact inverse. All those places originate in the mideast with later migrants taking the names with them to the Indus Valley and naming after the levantine places. The echoic nature of the names starting with the mideast is a more efficient hypothesis as the names and locations are then internally consistent.

    But since your thesis is still geared towards dismantling the current notion of the Jewish identity, I won't pursue it.
     
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  18. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    The relevance is your mention of ptolemy, 70 translators, and the LXX without doing the legwork about them. Just claiming "there is no dispute" while not knowing there overwhelming dispute and scholarship around it.

    I think both you and your colleague don't have the heart to accept it. So thanks Dr. Bharat for engaging. I shall withdraw from this topic.
     
  19. Bharat Jhunjhunwala

    Bharat Jhunjhunwala TruthPrevails

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    Unfortunate. But let me clarify there are many issues regarding LXX. There is no dispute that all mention mitsrayim. Thanks for the conversation.
     
  20. Bharat Jhunjhunwala

    Bharat Jhunjhunwala TruthPrevails

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    Thanks for the conversation. Maybe there will be another occasion.
     
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