Xtians, I forget, What Do We Need a Saviour For?

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The bill was paid for you, too, the moment you accept the gift - and believe him.
John 3:16.

The bill has been paid or it hasn’t. He doesn’t get to take it back when He is throwing a tantrum.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

When they kill him, it's a reason to not come back

But Jesus can’t be executed for our sins unless someone kills him. There is suicide, but given how often Jesus ran from his enemies, it’s clear he didn’t want to die. So much for sacrificing himself for us.

 

[capumetu]

Well?

...and while we're at it, what did we do that someone had to die for?

We sinned Luke, therefore we die. Jesus' death payed the ransom, opening the way for everlasting life.
(1 Corinthians 15:45) . . .“The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

When people want to cheer people up they give them something beautiful such as flowers

I have allergies and asthma. Flowers would set me off. God would be cruel or incompetent if He sent me flowers.

 

[thomas t]

None of this squirming and wriggling actually addresses the point. If you set a test that everybody fails, then it isn't a fair an appropriate test.

look it's that simple: the moment you complain you're implying you want to be given by God the opportunity to never make a mistake.
Why doesn't this answer the point?
Demanding the opportunity to never make anything wrong is nothing but demanding the perfect nature. Which is equivalent to saying "for me, only the best, of course! All else is not fair."

The test is as it is.
You cannot reasonably complain about it, without implying you want nothing short of utter perfection as a condition for life, in my opinion.

 

[thomas t]

The bill has been paid or it hasn’t. He doesn’t get to take it back when He is throwing a tantrum.

the bill is paid for those who claim it by demanding forgiveness.
It is like a sandwich that is delivered to your place and given to you, if you open the door.
If you don't, you don't have the sandwich.

So much for sacrificing himself for us.

the sacrifice consisted in showing up at all and behaving normally like stating his opinion sometimes,
For them, that was reason enough to kill him. And God knew beforehand. This is how I read the Bible.

 

[ratiocinator]

look it's that simple: the moment you complain you're implying you want to be given by God the opportunity to never make a mistake.

So what's wrong with that is that is the test that is going to be given?

There is no getting away from the fact that setting a test that you know everyone will fail and for which failure has serious consequences, is unfair and unjust. Either we should have a nature that allows us to pass the test, or the test should be better suited to the nature we have been given.

Your god supposedly designed both our nature and the test - and is therefore entirely to blame for everybody failing it. Hence, any condemnation of us for not passing the test is god blaming us for being the way god made us.

 

[thomas t]

Your god supposedly designed both our nature and the test - and is therefore entirely to blame for everybody failing it.

he designed nature with man having the choice to alter it. Man opted wrong.

Hence, any condemnation of us for not passing the test is god blaming us for being the way god made us.

no, there is true choice every single time.
The test consists of 1.000.000 little tests (my estimation). Every little test under the condition of having a true choice every single time. Once you fail at one of these tests you fail altogether.

Are you going to say God is so incompetent as to fail to design one of these little tests without true choice?

 

[ratiocinator]

The test consists of 1.000.000 little tests. Every little test under the condition of having a true choice every single time. Once you fail at one of these tests you fail altogether.

So what? Everybody fails eventually (according to the bible) and we have a sinful nature, so that is inevitable.

Are you going to say God is so incompetent as to fail to design one of these little tests without true choice?

God is incompetent (or malicious or sadistic) because he's expecting something from humans that none of them can achieve.

 

[thomas t]

God is incompetent (or malicious or sadistic) because he's expecting something from humans that none of them can achieve.

However, in every single case (I mean the little tests), man has a true choice to act right.
So there is nothing incompetent (malicious or sadistic) about God.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

the bill is paid for those who claim it by demanding forgiveness.
It is like a sandwich that is delivered to your place and given to you, if you open the door.
If you don't, you don't have the sandwich

No. If I refuse to take it, it was still given. Ask DoorDash.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

For them, that was reason enough to kill him. And

But the villains are actually the heroes because Jesus HAD to die to save us, right?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

So what's wrong with that is that is the test that is going to be given?

There is no getting away from the fact that setting a test that you know everyone will fail and for which failure has serious consequences, is unfair and unjust. Either we should have a nature that allows us to pass the test, or the test should be better suited to the nature we have been given.

Your god supposedly designed both our nature and the test - and is therefore entirely to blame for everybody failing it. Hence, any condemnation of us for not passing the test is god blaming us for being the way god made us.

I mean, I was a teacher once. Believe me, you will hear if you made a bad test.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Are you going to say God is so incompetent as to fail to design one of these little tests without true choice?

Yeah.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

However, in every single case (I mean the little tests), man has a true choice to act right.
So there is nothing incompetent (malicious or sadistic) about God.

If we have the choice, we lack the ability, which is the problem.

 

[InChrist]

So god was simply unable to create people who have a genuine choice (so not omnipotent)? It was rather stupid, not to mention unjust and unfair, to create them and then hold them to a standard they couldn't possibly meet.



Apart from the absurdity of having to believe a bizarre and nonsensical story for which there is no evidence at all, then what? We go back to sinning anyway, for all eternity? Anything else would contradict the supposed impossibility of finite beings living up to the standards of an infinite god.

Again, it’s not stupidly at all, just reality and you are displaying your ignorance. The scriptures reveal there is only ONE Creator God and that there has never been, nor will ever be another. That should be easy enough to understand. It is also revealed that God is holy, good, righteous and perfect. There are some things a perfectly holy God cannot do simply because of the very nature of His Being... things such as lying or doing wrong or ... creating another God. Therefore, other beings created by God, are not perfect because they are not Gods. Humans make mistakes, do wrong things and sin. The scriptures show the only way to overcome this is to be born again spiritually and have new life in Christ, who alone lived the perfect human life ( God in the flesh) and paid for all sins on behalf of humanity.
You are free to believe there’s no evidence, but I don’t think God expects anyone to believe without evidence so plenty had been provided for anyone who sincerely looks for it.

 

[InChrist]

IOW, for the faults in his creation. Still sounds incompetent to me.

And as for the "sacrificing his son" bit:

- if he couldn't figure out any other way to fix his creation, then he's extra incompetent.

- if he had many ways to fix his creation but voluntarily chose the sacrifice of his son over cruelty-free options, then he's a monster.

So then obviously if God is all-knowing then He knows there are not many ways, but ONE way to fix fallen creation and that is through Christ. So that is the way it is and God is not a monster, but on the contrary a loving, Self- sacrificing Savior who loves His creation.

 

[lukethethird]

Again, it’s not stupidly at all, just reality and you are displaying your ignorance. The scriptures reveal there is only ONE Creator God and that there has never been, nor will ever be another. That should be easy enough to understand. It is also revealed that God is holy, good, righteous and perfect. There are some things a perfectly holy God cannot do simply because of the very nature of His Being... things such as lying or doing wrong or ... creating another God. Therefore, other beings created by God, are not perfect because they are not Gods. Humans make mistakes, do wrong things and sin. The scriptures show the only way to overcome this is to be born again spiritually and have new life in Christ, who alone lived the perfect human life ( God in the flesh) and paid for all sins on behalf of humanity.
You are free to believe there’s no evidence, but I don’t think God expects anyone to believe without evidence so plenty had been provided for anyone who sincerely looks for it.

It appears that people read or hear about this story and want to play a role in it, and yet it's just a story., so what gives?

 

[InChrist]

It appears that people read or hear about this story and want to play a role in it, and yet it's just a story., so what gives?

You say “it’s just a story”, yet the scriptures present themselves as the Word of God revealed to humanity and as literal, historical truth.

 

[ratiocinator]

The scriptures reveal there is only ONE Creator God and that there has never been, nor will ever be another.

Why should I believe scriptures (I'm assuming you mean the bible) since they are an incoherent, disjointed mess, riddled with contradictions (yes, I have read all of the bible)?

It is also revealed that God is holy, good, righteous and perfect.

Well, the bible does say that but the actions of the god character tell a different story (one of the many contradictions).

Therefore, other beings created by God, are not perfect because they are not Gods. Humans make mistakes, do wrong things and sin.

Then they shouldn't be judged as if they were - doing so would be unjust and unfair and would contradict your god being "holy, good, righteous and perfect".

The scriptures show the only way to overcome this is to be born again spiritually and have new life in Christ, who alone lived the perfect human life ( God in the flesh) and paid for all sins on behalf of humanity.

Now you're contradicting yourself and saying there is a way that we can live up to the standards. How is the bizarre sadomasochistic nonsense about god becoming a man and then making sure he gets tortured to death supposed to help?

You are free to believe there’s no evidence, but I don’t think God expects anyone to believe without evidence so plenty had been provided for anyone who sincerely looks for it.

Where?