Xtians, I forget, What Do We Need a Saviour For?

[thomas t]

Nothing you say can take away the fact that giving people a sinful nature is unjust and unfair.

For me this comes across as saying that anything short of utter perfection is unacceptable for you.
In my opinion, this is just the wrong attitude.
Bible says that according to the measure you apply to others, you will be judged yourself.
If utter perfection is the standard you expect of others... this is the standard that will be applied to you possibly. This is at least my interpretation of the corresponding Bible verse.

It is you who are special pleading here.

except that I am not.
Pieces of arts can be treated by the artist the way he wants in any case. He created the arts, he may destroy them. Even if the piece of arts is a living being.
This is at least my opinion.

omniscience

I personally doubt God's all-time omniscience for the fact that there is no Bible verse saying so. There is no combination of verses claiming such thing as omniscience (all-time omniscience), either. It's theology, it's even mainstream theology, but I don't subscribe to that. For me personally, it's Bible only that counts.

nonsense

Even if you call adopting the form of a human nonsense, this was the way in which God revealed himself to mankind.
That was when they killed him.
This serves as evidence that the whole world would try this again, if he wanted to show up again - in front of everyone.
I don't see a structural difference between the Jews of back then and humankind of today.

a perfectly moral and caring human

no, I'm not. Only God is perfect in my view.

the indefensible when it comes to the bible and your god.

There's nothing indefensible there, I think.

doublethink

no doublethink here, in my view.

But it simply isn't evidence. In what possible way do you imagine that humans finding some things nice to look at, is evidence for any god, let alone your specific one?

It is evidence for a loving God. When people want to cheer people up they give them something beautiful such as flowers. Out of love sometimes. This may serve as evidence that a loving God exists, since mankind is placed within sometimes beautiful countrysides.

If you suffer from the bad things you still can enjoy something good.
But if you enjoy something something good, doesn't necessarily mean you suffer from any illness or any Tsunami or any other natural desasters...

 

[ratiocinator]

For me this comes across as saying that anything short of utter perfection is unacceptable for you.

Why don't you actually try reading what I said? Pointing out a specific injustice is not demanding perfection - although why shouldn't I expect perfection from a perfectly good and just god?

He created the arts, he may destroy them. Even if the piece of arts is a living being.

Defending the indefensible again.

This serves as evidence that the whole world would try this again, if he wanted to show up again

Do you have any grasp at all what evidence is? If god showed up in an entirely different (more rational and sensible) way, why would you expect the same outcome as showing up in a tiny backwater in disguise? Why not show up in a form in which killing it isn't even an option?

no, I'm not. Only God is perfect in my view.

Seriously? Do you not get figures of speech? It's a way to avoid the point, I guess...

There's nothing indefensible there, I think.

no doublethink here, in my view.

Just contradicting me, isn't much of an argument. Genocide is indefensible, as is slavery. Your doublethink is obvious for reasons I gave. Do feel free to offer actual arguments against those points rather than just "oh no it isn't!"

It is evidence for a loving God. If people want to cheer people up they give them something beautiful such as flowers. Out of love sometimes. This may serve as evidence that a loving God exists, since mankind is within sometimes beautiful countrysides.

You really haven't the slightest clue about what evidence means, do you? Just because people sometimes give you pleasant things deliberately, doesn't mean that every pleasant thing you encounter was a deliberate gift. Please just stop and try to think before replying.

 

[stvdv]

If i have wronged i find it much more effective to apologise to the person i have wronged.

My Master taught "IF you have wronged, say sorry to the person, before going to sleep. Say sorry to God is of no use IF you can but don't say sorry to the person".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It isn't what we did individually but, a debt that was passed on by a family member that no one could pay. Do you know about the redemption laws in Israel? Christ is called a redeemer for a reason.

Any debt incurred by a person could be passed on to the next generation until the debt was paid. A son or daughter could work to help pay off the debt, but if it was huge, it was just an ongoing thing unless some benevolent person (perhaps a wealthy relative) volunteered to pay the debt for them.

This type of bond service sometimes lasted for generations where a near kinsman redeemer did not readily provide the ransom price.

Sounds like the coming of god himself to "save" humanity and teach them about morals, would have been a good opportunity to do away with that immoral practice, instead of reinforcing it like this...

Then again, this "god" didn't feel the need to tell people to stop the practice of slavery either.

He did find the time to complain about eating shrimp though...

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Death is the solution for our sins.

So do ants sin? How about bees? Or wasps? Or spiders? Fish? Cats? Trees?

After all, they all die...

Could it perhaps be that "death" has nothing to do with "sin"?

But lucky us, God loves us and wants us to avoid eternal death and so sent His Son to die in our place.

"lucky us".

He offers the gift of eternal life for those who see their need and put their faith in what He and His Son have done.

You call it "eternal life", but what you seem to fail to understand, is that it's still preceded by death.
Another hint that your "death is because of sin", is obvious nonsense.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Bible says noone will be punished for the deeds of their ancestors: Jeremiah 31:30.

If that were true, then there would be no need for a "saviour" to redeem humans for the "sins" of their long dead (mythical) ancestors called Adam and Eve

 

[thomas t]

Pointing out a specific injustice is not demanding perfection

you complained about God not having delivered a perfect nature.
You said it was unjust and unfair, if I remember well.
That's why I said you have the wrong attitude if you only accept utter perfection.

Defending the indefensible again.

there is nothing indefensable about the Word of God.

If god showed up in an entirely different (more rational and sensible) way, why would you expect the same outcome as showing up in a tiny backwater in disguise? Why not show up in a form in which killing it isn't even an option?

God showed up and they wanted to kill him according to the Bible.
You saying he showed up in the wrong way is like saying my close contact dressed up the wrong way (at the beach).
No, the men staring at her breasts misbehaved, and the people wanting to kill God misbehaved, too.
When I show up somewhere and people want to kill me, it's just the wrong argument to say I showed up the wrong way.
I showed up, and nobady needs to kill me. Same with God.
I have a right to life, so had God. People disrespected that right to life that Jesus had. Right to life is a precious human right. A right that all people share.
Don't try to blur it insinuating that if people show up the wrong way it's comprehensible if everyone wants to kill them.
The lust for killing others is just the wrong feeling that people have sometimes.

Genocide is indefensible,

it wasn't genocide since genocide implies unlawfulness.
Destroying own art is defensible, easily.

Your doublethink

... that I don't have.

You really haven't the slightest clue about what evidence means, do you?

Actually I do.
You don't agree with me. This does not mean that I don't have a clue about what I'm talking about.

Please just stop and try to think before replying.

Please don't give me unwarranted advice, thank you.

 

[thomas t]

If that were true, then there would be no need for a "saviour" to redeem humans for the "sins" of their long dead (mythical) ancestors called Adam and Eve

but that's not what we a need a savior for.
Everyone needs a savior for their own sins, this is how I understand the Bible.
I understand it this way: sin came into the world through Adam, and since then, everyone is a made sinner.
It's like this: A father yells at their children.
And then the children yell at theirs. And then their children etc...
It's this what we need an escape from. Jesus is the answer, in my view,
greetings,
Thomas

 

[Deeje]

Let's start with this:

"..but hey, you really don't want to know....or do you?"

Yes, actually, I do. But I also know this -- I will never learn anything that is true by reading Genesis as if it were settled history. There was no garden, no Adam, no Eve, no serpent-aka-Satan, etc.

And this:

"it was really he [Satan] who wanted to be 'like God' and have the humans worship him, and do his bidding.....but first he had to separate them from their Creator by using slander and lies. He chose the woman because he knew that through her, his tactic of "divide and conquer" could work on the man"

Yes, the obligatory misogyny...

And then:

"We now have a written record of all that has transpired from the first rebellion, down to today, so that this failure on the part of the devil and his aminions to steal worship away from the Creator will be settled for all time to come."

This is what I meant by reading the allegory, and often blatent invention, of scripture as if it were settled history. It isn't.

But then:

"Where are you?"

Right here, in the real world, where I've always been.

Then I clearly have nothing to offer you. My explanation is meaningless if you remove the only basis for discussion.

“Faith is not the possession of all people”.....so go in peace and enjoy “the real world”......it’s not a world I want to live in....I am an alien here. I look forward to the world we were supposed to enjoy in the beginning, as I believe this world was never meant to be “real”....it’s the stuff of nightmares. It might be your home, but it isn’t mine by a long shot.

It’s not the planet, (which is magnificent) but the disgusting humans who seem bent on destroying it (and us) that I want to see the back of. (Revelation 11:18) I am confident that God will see to it in his own time.

I believe that the Creator has great plans for the future, and I hope to see the restoration of what he purposed in the beginning.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Then I clearly have nothing to offer you. My explanation is meaningless if you remove the only basis for discussion.

“Faith is not the possession of all people”.....so go in peace and enjoy “the real world”......it’s not a world I want to live in....I am an alien here. I look forward to the world we were supposed to enjoy in the beginning, as I believe this world was never meant to be “real”....it’s the stuff of nightmares. It might be your home, but it isn’t mine by a long shot.

It’s not the planet, (which is magnificent) but the disgusting humans who seem bent on destroying it (and us) that I want to see the back of. (Revelation 11:18) I am confident that God will see to it in his own time.

I believe that the Creator has great plans for the future, and I hope to see the restoration of what he purposed in the beginning.

You know, I'm going to say something very hard here, and for which I might well be censured. Still I think it's something that needs to be said.

What you wrote above speaks volumes to me, but the most important thing is says is that if this human race is ever to better itself, and if we are ever to learn how to care for our planet and only home, you will never be part of that.

This saddens me, because I am one who believes 100% that if the human race is to survive at all, it will be only because we learn to do right --- both by our planet, ourselves, and each other.

In all honesty, I prefer my belief (which I admit is just that -- belief) to yours.

 

[Deeje]

You know, I'm going to say something very hard here, and for which I might well be censured. Still I think it's something that needs to be said.

What you wrote above speaks volumes to me, but the most important thing is says is that if this human race is ever to better itself, and if we are ever to learn how to care for our planet and only home, you will never be part of that.

Look back and see that your expectations for humankind ever being able to care for the planet and each other will never be realized. How long have we had to get our act together? What signs are we showing that we care about anything but ourselves and our own aggrandizement and wealth seeking? This is a "dog eat dog" world and it shows no signs of improvement in the near future. Money speaks and the greedy listen.

Are you an eternal optimist? I assume you would call me one, and you are supposed to be the realist....? What is reality showing you?

How many warnings is the human race getting about the impact that their habits are having on the environment?
Who is listening? Plastics are drowning the planet and killing marine life because humans can't do without their plastic....but did you know that there are ecologically friendly ways to make all the plastic we need without harm to the environment? You don't need to make it out of petroleum products that take centuries to break down....all they needed to do was make it out of hemp...a wonder plant with thousands of uses and all biodegradable. It would fertilize the soil in landfill......feed the marine creatures vital nutrition instead of killing them in our oceans which have become the world's collective garbage dump.

Chemical pollution is also causing destruction on a massive scale. Pesticides are killing the good and beneficial insects along with the "pests"...we need them to pollinate our food crops. Herbicides are also poisoning the food we buy.....our drinking water is laced with chemicals.....tell me what man has not polluted...?

This saddens me, because I am one who believes 100% that if the human race is to survive at all, it will be only because we learn to do right --- both by our planet, ourselves, and each other.

It saddens me that you put your trust in the very ones who will never achieve it. They could have banned the use of petroleum based plastics decades ago when it was first understood how damaging it was to the planet, but here we are in 20 years into the twenty first century and plastic is still plastic......the problem is worse than ever.....a problem so monumental now that no one knows what to do about it. Hundreds of kilometers of plastic waste clogging up the oceans and threatening its marine life. But no one wants to take responsibility for it.

In all honesty, I prefer my belief (which I admit is just that -- belief) to yours.

I prefer hope to hopelessness. I see what the Creator has made in the untouched part of the Earth that still declare his thoughtful and beautiful creativity, and the pristine cleanness that every creature maintains as a matter of course. Man is the only "unclean" species on this planet and he is the only one with supposedly enough intelligence to know better....he can offer no excuses for what he has done and is still doing.

You can trust him if you like.....I will put my trust in the Creator.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Look back and see that your expectations for humankind ever being able to care for the planet and each other will never be realized. How long have we had to get our act together? What signs are we showing that we care about anything but ourselves and our own aggrandizement and wealth seeking? This is a "dog eat dog" world and it shows no signs of improvement in the near future. Money speaks and the greedy listen.

Are you an eternal optimist? I assume you would call me one, and you are supposed to be the realist....? What is reality showing you?

How many warnings is the human race getting about the impact that their habits are having on the environment?
Who is listening? Plastics are drowning the planet and killing marine life because humans can't do without their plastic....but did you know that there are ecologically friendly ways to make all the plastic we need without harm to the environment? You don't need to make it out of petroleum products that take centuries to break down....all they needed to do was make it out of hemp...a wonder plant with thousands of uses and all biodegradable. It would fertilize the soil in landfill......feed the marine creatures vital nutrition instead of killing them in our oceans which have become the world's collective garbage dump.

Chemical pollution is also causing destruction on a massive scale. Pesticides are killing the good and beneficial insects along with the "pests"...we need them to pollinate our food crops. Herbicides are also poisoning the food we buy.....our drinking water is laced with chemicals.....tell me what man has not polluted...?



It saddens me that you put your trust in the very ones who will never achieve it. They could have banned the use of petroleum based plastics decades ago when it was first understood how damaging it was to the planet, but here we are in 20 years into the twenty first century and plastic is still plastic......the problem is worse than ever.....a problem so monumental now that no one knows what to do about it. Hundreds of kilometers of plastic waste clogging up the oceans and threatening its marine life. But no one wants to take responsibility for it.



I prefer hope to hopelessness. I see what the Creator has made in the untouched part of the Earth that still declare his thoughtful and beautiful creativity, and the pristine cleanness that every creature maintains as a matter of course. Man is the only "unclean" species on this planet and he is the only one with supposedly enough intelligence to know better....he can offer no excuses for what he has done and is still doing.

You can trust him if you like.....I will put my trust in the Creator.

You know, we live in the least violent era in human history. (As an aside, this coincides with a reduction in religiosity, which ought to be instructive.)

The US and Europe from 1900–1960, even with two world wars, saw less than 1% of their population perish in armed conflicts. In 2007, just 0.04% of deaths in the world were from international violence. If this data is correct, the world in 2007 was at least an order of magnitude safer than most prehistoric societies.

Am I an optimist? Oh, yes indeed. Anyone -- anyone -- who claims to have "faith" ought to be an optimist, don't you think? I mean, how is it possible to believe in a loving God who created a world that He Himself "saw that it was good," and not have optimism?

I'm an optimist because I think that, flawed as we are, we can learn -- we do learn, history has shown me that. In my own lifetime, I've watched my nation and other nations go from state executions of people to an abhorrence of capital punishment. I lived in fear during my youth of having to "duck and cover" (to absolutely zero avail) when the nukes came (or the straight thugs)-- but we're not nuking each other, and we're learing to deal with each others differences. Did you notice that?

Yes, we're polluting our planet now -- of course we are, because our technologies have gotten ahead of us, and we need to catch up. But we are catching up. The Paris Accords, and endless efforts all over the world, are beginning to take our mistreatment of our home seriously, and we will start doing something about it (especially once Trump is out of office and a new administration rejoins those accords).

You say you "prefer hope to hopelessness," but then the rest of your post denies that completely, and you've decided to rely on the end of all that we know for some magical existence about which you know nothing.

I say that I, too, prefer hope to hopelessness -- but what I have just said to you reinforces my hope. I believe that we can do better, and I believe that we can do it by cooperating with one another. Not only that, I believe that we will.

There are just a few barriers to my hopes left to break down. Among those are tribalism -- and religion.

 

[Deeje]

You know, we live in the least violent era in human history. (As an aside, this coincides with a reduction in religiosity, which ought to be instructive.)

The US and Europe from 1900–1960, even with two world wars, saw less than 1% of their population perish in armed conflicts. In 2007, just 0.04% of deaths in the world were from international violence. If this data is correct, the world in 2007 was at least an order of magnitude safer than most prehistoric societies.

Am I an optimist? Oh, yes indeed. Anyone -- anyone -- who claims to have "faith" ought to be an optimist, don't you think? I mean, how is it possible to believe in a loving God who created a world that He Himself "saw that it was good," and not have optimism?

I'm an optimist because I think that, flawed as we are, we can learn -- we do learn, history has shown me that. In my own lifetime, I've watched my nation and other nations go from state executions of people to an abhorrence of capital punishment. I lived in fear during my youth of having to "duck and cover" (to absolutely zero avail) when the nukes came -- but we're not nuking each other. Did you notice that?

Yes, we're polluting our planet now -- of course we are, because our technologies have gotten ahead of us, and we need to catch up. But we are catching up. The Paris Accords, and endless efforts all over the world, are beginning to take our mistreat of our home seriously, and we will start doing something about it (especially once Trump is out of office and a new administration rejoins those accords).

You say you "prefer hope to hopelessness," but then the rest of your post denies that completely, and you've decided to rely on the end of all that we know for some magical existence about which you know nothing.

I say that I, too, prefer hope to hopelessness -- but what I have just said to you reinforces my hope. I believe that we can do better, and I believe that we can do it by cooperating with one another. Not only that, I believe that we will.

There are just a few barriers to my hopes left to break down. Among those are tribalism -- and religion.

That is misplaced hope and confidence IMO because I see no real basis for your hope and no power strong enough to deliver it......but time will tell I guess....if this world is considered "civilized" to you, then I don't think you understand the meaning of the word. The USA was almost at a civil war level with its last election. People split down the middle over wearing masks for crying out loud! How many of its citizens are now homeless? Once the most successful nation on earth, now a pathetic shadow of its former self. We have a new designation..."the working homeless". MAGA is an empty slogan.....how can any nation make itself great again when the powers that be dictate otherwise.
We have seen rioting in the streets in nation after nation....people angry about the ineptitude of their governments to deliver what they had promised....murders, bombings, mass killings, political shirt fronting, trade wars, threatened nuclear war with N. Korea....seriously.....what are you seeing that I'm not?

Does track record account for nothing through your rose colored glasses?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

That is misplaced hope and confidence IMO because I see no real basis for your hope and no power strong enough to deliver it......but time will tell I guess....if this world is considered "civilized" to you, then I don't think you understand the meaning of the word. The USA was almost at a civil war level with its last election. People split down the middle over wearing masks for crying out loud! How many of its citizens are now homeless? Once the most successful nation on earth, now a pathetic shadow of its former self. We have a new designation..."the working homeless". MAGA is an empty slogan.....how can any nation make itself great again when the powers that be dictate otherwise.
We have seen rioting in the streets in nation after nation....people angry about the ineptitude of their governments to deliver what they had promised....murders, bombings, mass killings, political shirt fronting, trade wars, threatened nuclear war with N. Korea....seriously.....what are you seeing that I'm not?

Does track record account for nothing through your rose colored glasses?

You might try to remember that the last 4 years have lasted -- my goodness -- only 4 years. So Americans made an electoral mistake, but look -- they've corrected it. You might talk to @Revoltingest about that, since he's even more optimistic about the nation's ability to self-correct than I am.

But I've been watching the new administration come together, and while not perfect (what is?), I see it as very hopeful, with a large number of strong players.

We just have to get through the next 27 days...

 

[Revoltingest]

You might try to remember that the last 4 years have lasted -- my goodness -- only 4 years. So Americans made an electoral mistake...

Anti-Trumpers automatically say Hillary would've been better
than sliced bread. But when I've addressed her record, they
look the other way, or make excuses, or attack Trump.
She voted to start one war, & to continue both. She threatened
to "obliterate" Iran. There's more unsavory history with her.
As bad as Trump is, his record isn't the worst regarding war
or civil liberties. But his foes focus upon not his record as much
as his being awful personally.
BTW, they've ignored much of Biden's record too. I've even seen
one respected poster say that it was long ago, so it should be
ignored. Really? Sexual impropriety, war mongering, & anti
civil liberties....none matter. But Trump's history mattered greatly
to them before 2016.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Anti-Trumpers automatically say Hillary would've been better
than sliced bread. But when I've addressed her record, they
look the other way, or make excuses, or attack Trump.
She voted to start one war, & to continue both. She threatened
to "obliterate" Iran. There's more unsavory history with her.
As bad as Trump is, his record isn't the worst regarding war
or civil liberties. But his foes focus upon not his record as much
as his being awful personally.

I hope that you realize that when I said "Americans made a mistake," I was not referring to only Hillary versus Donald. There were a lot of people running for nomination for both parties before we got to that ridiculous contest. US elections are practically Rococo in comparison to other nations -- like mine, f'rinstance.

 

[Revoltingest]

I hope that you realize that when I said "Americans made a mistake," I was not referring to only Hillary versus Donald. There were a lot of people running for nomination for both parties before we got to that ridiculous contest. US elections are practically Rococo in comparison to other nations -- like mine, f'rinstance.

"Mistakes" would make more sense than "mistake".
I don't see Biden as a "correction". Dems had better
choices, but they went with past-due-date haggis.
So 2020 was a good year for me to vote Libertarian.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

"Mistakes" would make more sense than "mistake".
I don't see Biden as a "correction". Dems had better
choices, but they went with past-due-date haggis.
So 2020 was a good year for me to vote Libertarian.

Don't necessarily disagree. For myself, I was leaning heavily towards Elizabeth Warren for the Dems. I kind of like policy wonks, myself. Biden was lower than third on my list of favourites -- but hey, I don't get a vote.

 

[Revoltingest]

Don't necessarily disagree. For myself, I was leaning heavily towards Elizabeth Warren for the Dems. I kind of like policy wonks, myself. Biden was lower than third on my list of favourites -- but hey, I don't get a vote.

I saw Warren as another bad choice....war monger,
very pro-Israel (anti-Iran), big government, etc.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I saw Warren as another bad choice....war monger,
very pro-Israel (anti-Iran), big government, etc.

So? Share with me -- where did your sympathies lie? (If you ever answered that before, forgive me...I didn't see it.)