All you've done is tell me how imaginative you are, since every claim you make is made in the total absence of evidence for its veracity. You may live your fiction as you like, I will carry on living my reality.
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Xtians, I forget, What Do We Need a Saviour For?
- Thread starter lukethethird
- Start date
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Well you have to pick out the right God first. Of course it is going to be a nightmare if you choose an immoral and incompetent God such as the God of the Bible. Do you like pasta? Do you like beer? Do you like to dress up like a pirate and say "Arrgghh!"? Then have I got a religion for you!
This notion of a "tussle between the forces of good and evil" strikes me as totally illogical. You, and all Christians, so far as I can tell, accept that God is omnipotent. Now, unless Satan (or whoever you credit for the "forces of evil") is similarly omnipotent, then there is no tussle even possible. It's over before it starts.
Look, if only one side is infinitely powerful, then let us be clear, the other side has only finite ability. And finite -- wait for it -- infinitely less powerful than infinitely powerful.
And if both sides are infinitely powerful, there cannot ever be a winner -- the battle must go on, futile skirmish after futile skirmish, forever.
Surely you realize that the argument that I "could go ask Jesus to fix my own nature" is meaningless to me. If Jesus existed (and I suspect there was such a person), it was a long time ago and he is now dust and nothing more. For me to go ask dust to fix me seems ludicrous in the extreme.
If i have wronged i find it much more effective to apologise to the person i have wronged.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
IMO:
Some claim "Jesus died for our sins" ... I claim "Jesus died of 'our' SIN" (SIN of killing Jesus by crucifixion)
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I believe we do need Spiritual Educators just like we need earthly educators.
As to how we were born. In the Bible it says we were created in the image of God, that is, good and pure. To say we were born sinners implies God is a sinner because we were created in His Image.
So I don’t go for the born sinners bit. We become or learn to sin but are not born with it.
Studying roman history i consider he was executed for crimes against the state.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Yes, that might be, I know this happens also in China and North Korea a lot; maybe that state acted similar like these countries
Rome was pretty tough on those denying that the emperor was a god.
Also on those denying other gods and other religions.
Absorb other cultures including their religion. Give them roman backing in exchange, everyone is happy . To try and break this was treasonous.
in my opinion it is not unjust for God to not give us a choice if we want to be sinful or not... since we can ask God for help.
A crime, such as genocide, is something unlawful.
There is no law, to which God seems accountable.
An artist may destroy his own piece of arts.
Look at this lovely countryside - a wonderful sky (this time I choose a countriside in the North of Germany, see below)-
https://pixabay.com/photos/baltic-sea-fjord-schlei-3519267/
it's not incoherent and often self-contradictory nonsense, though.
except that God is not a monster.
A crime, such as genocide, is something unlawful.
There is no law, to which God seems accountable.
An artist may destroy his own piece of arts.
it's not silly. Last time he showed up, he ended at the cross according to the Bible.
there is profound evidence for a loving Creator-God, as I see it.
Look at this lovely countryside - a wonderful sky (this time I choose a countriside in the North of Germany, see below)-
As I said, if you demand forgiveness from God that's something, if you never did it, it's like you completely mean what you did, in my opinion.
https://pixabay.com/photos/baltic-sea-fjord-schlei-3519267/
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Die for what, ....three days? That did not look much of a sacrifice, so probably sin is not such a big issue, after all.
Ciao
- viole
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
It would seem that Jesus had to die because he told people they could live free of the burden of sin and this directly challenged the religious authorities of his time.
Why would Judas betray him? Why would PiIate wash his hands? Why would people vote for a murderer to go free rather than Jesus?
Somewhere in this is the reason Jesus had to be crucified: because of those who refused to accept him.
On the one hand, people can say everyone is sinful and falls short of the glory of God.
But on the other hand, Jesus proved that that's not true. If he didn't prove it was possible, then someone would have to say Jesus sinned.
So the message isn't really that all have sinned, but rather that you don't have to sin.
When you go to Church do you remember yourself? That you are sinful? Or do you remember one that was not sinful?
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
But we simply don't have that choice. Everybody 'sins'.
Which simply doesn't work - otherwise those who did would be sinless.
I often wonder if Christians ever read their bibles. I mean, I know they literally do look at all the words but I mean read it to see what it actually says, rather to confirm what they already 'know'.
I also find it incredible the otherwise relatively sane humans are quite prepared to defend genocide, slavery, and other atrocities just because it's in their precious book of myths.
Totally irrelevant to my point. Showing up as a human was daft, and anyway, what if he hadn't ended up on the cross? That would have mucked up its plan, no?
What I mean is that, looking around the world, there is no evidence that a god exists.
And childhood leukaemia and other dreadful diseases, tsunamis, and so on. The double standards believers employ are incredible.
And if god was in the least bit fair and just, we'd have a proper choice to begin with.
at least there is communication about the wrongdoing.
What would you do if you broke a glass when invited somewhere? You would go to the host and explain. Then you would say you are sorry, right? You would ask him what to do. But when it comes to God being the host everything seems to be so much different all of a sudden?
... implies unlawfulness. There is nothing unlawful about an artist destroying his work, part of it at least.
It's not myths, I think
It's not. When you come to an environment, it matters if people want to kill you or if they don't.
Why do these simple facts not apply for God, according to you?
Why shouldn't he bother if people constantly want to kill him? It's not nice, anyway.
no double standards here. Even if you have childhood leukaemia... you could still enjoy the countryside.
The beauty is for everyone.
in my opinion, God is just perfectly fair.
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Which is irrelevant to the injustice of us not having a real choice in the first place.
These are actual, concious, living humans. If god discards them as if they were just lifeless sculptures, then it is an evil monster.
It is myths, I think. It is certainly riddled contradictions and obviously non-literal stories.
God is supposed to be omnipotent. It can only be killed if it wants to be, so of course it doesn't apply. In any event, it could just decide, as an artist, to destroy its work, couldn't it?
Because it has some small amount of compassion and cares even to a minimal degree about its creation, perhaps? If it wants people to believe and then doesn't give them any evidence, it's asking for people to be irrational. Does your god only like the gullible and irrational?
There isn't even any need to appear a human, apparently vulnerable, from in order to give us some evidence of its existence. In fact, appearing in human form is a dreadful way to provide evidence.
Oh right, so because you can look at pretty landscapes, you shouldn't worry that you're dying in agony - just buck up and look at the pretty view, eh? The lack of even basic human empathy here is palpable.
I know that's what you believe, the problem is that you can't justify that belief based on the other beliefs of you religion, which tell a very different story.
Lukethethird asked: (paraphrased) "What was our sin that Jesus died for?"
On the cross, Jesus asked God "why hath thou foresaken me?" So, it was not Jesus's idea to be tortured to death on a cross, nor was it Jesus's idea to die for our sins.
Presumably, it was God's demand for payment for sins, and God's idea to kill Jesus.
Why would an all-powerful and all-knowing God need a demi-God sacrifice to forgive someone? Couldn't God just say "it is all forgiven?" Unless, we consider the idea that Jesus was a good person to be around (feeding the hungry, healing the sick, telling us how to live well). Then, the death of Jesus would be a punishment for mankind.
Does a loving God punish? Or is God vengeful and wrathful?
Evangelicalhumanist quoted (and agreed with) Hitchens: "created sick and ordered to be well." While the bible is an order to obey God's laws, and those laws presumably would make us well and keep us well, I think that Jesus's death is not an order, but a cure--it appeases God's request for demi-God sacrifice.
Deeje says (paraphrased): "original sin is a debt (of Adam, and others) passed to future generations, and Adam's sin was too great for Adam, alone, to pay."
This begs questions...."Do the deeds of an individual matter?" "Can you go to hell if you just handle your own debts and don't pay off Adam's debts?" "Do you accept Master Card?" Can a good person, devoutly committed to Jesus, Christ, and God (some believe all the same entity), go to heaven without paying off sins?
Now that Jesus died for our sins (God's idea for Jesus to die, of course), are we cleansed of sins or did generations that followed Jesus add more sins?
Wasn't the killing of Jesus a sin? After all, that was the son of God, and surely killing the son of t he most powerful being in the universe would be sinful? Why would God allow anyone to kill his son? Wouldn't God, like any parent, use whatever power he had to stop the horrible torture and killing of his son? Was killing Jesus God's way of teaching Jesus about the horrors of human torture?
Where were the awesome powers of Jesus as he was being totured to death? If Jesus could cure blindness, why couldn't Jesus cause blindness, and blind Pontius Pilate, and blind the Caesar who had ordered the death of Jesus (and ordered the death of all those poor tortured humans who lined every road to Rome)?
Was the death of Jesus purely the decision of humans or did God have a hand in making the decision to murder Jesus? Did God merely stand by and do nothing as Jesus was brutally tortured and murdered? If so, wouldn't that make God an accessory after the fact? In other words, it seems as though God sinned by allowing the death of his son.
A normal parent, with God's power, would be like Jeanie (I Dream of Jeanie) or Samantha (Bewitched), and blink him free, and smite all those who caused Jesus's death. But, notice that God did nothing to stop the Romans from killing (roads to Rome were littered with crucified humans). Furthermore, the Romans (seeing that they had a lot of power to control people) took over control of the Christian faith, and ruled it from the Vatican for thousands of years. The Vatican didn't have many non-Italian (Roman) popes, so Italia had a lock on Christianity. The Romans even put forth the false rumor that Jews wanted to kill Christ.
Deeje also said that God's law is "an eye for an eye, a thooth for a tooth, and a life for a life." While this is Jewish law, Moses also brought the commandment "thou shalt not kill (murder)," and Jesus changed "eye for an eye" to "turn the other cheek." Apparently these two conflicting orders from God were designed for a different people at a different time. In biblical times, Jews needed to kill to stay alive. In modern times, Christians are in charge of nukes, and one false move and the world will be turned to ash (as Vladamir Putin pointedly reminded the United States a few years ago when Hillary and Obama were suggesting nuclear war with Russia).
Deeje also said "perfect life offered willingly." Clearly Jesus was not willing to die, since he asked God "why hath thou foresaken me?"
Perhaps mankind's original sin is temptation, which we must constantly fight?
Eden, once hallowed ground where Adam and Eve dwelt, is still hallowed ground. The recent war in Iraq dropped bombs on Eden (located in Iraq between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in an area strewn with pottery shards, and now strew with bomb craters and tank tracks). Remember that Revelation said not to attack Iraq or face God's wrath (example: Revelation 15 (seven plagues, including COVID)). Revelation says that God will destroy all life on earth for the attack on Iraq . This is because the attack on Iraq (which happened during our lifetimes) is the greatest sin that ever was.
The killing of 1,000,000 innocent Iraqis, who had nothing to do with terrorism, along with a torture camp in Guantanamo, while God ordered no attack on Iraq, and God ordered "thou shalt not kill" and God ordered not to "bear false witness against thy neighbor," was the greatest sin that ever was, and that will destroy all of mankind and all of life. The war in Iraq put us in the end times. According to Revelation, the ones who made the two wars in Iraq are father and son demons (dragon and beast). The administration that was (Bush Sr.) that is no more (Clinton), is again (Bush Jr.), as the bible put it. In other words, the bible predicted that there would be a gap between the two Bush administrations.
Deeje said: "we are not being punished....we are the vitims caught up in a tussle between the forces of good and evil." Why can't God kill Satan and smite evil? Ratiocinator is right....God shouldn't allow innocent humans to be caught up in such a tussle.
Deeje said: "If you want what God is offering then it requires very little effort on our part to obey the one who requires compliance with his clearly stated laws." What about the clearly stated law that God commanded in divinely inspired Revelation--attack Iraq and incur God's wrath. Why did many Christians stand by and watch that war happen? France objected. Russia objected. Italy objected. Iraq certainly objected. The pope objected and wrote a strongly worded See to the United States urging that we not fight the war in Iraq (knowing that was part of the end times, and knowing that the war in Iraq would identify both Bush presidents as demons from the foul bottomless pit of hell, as stated in Revelation about the people who attacked Iraq). Revelation even identified the attacker of Iraq as the most powerful nation in the world (Revelation 17:18, which calls the United States the Whore of Babylon).
Subduction Zone said: "Christianity was created sas a solution to a problem that was created by Judaism." No, the problem wasn't created by the Jewish religion, it was created by Adam. Adam existed before the Jewish religion. (Lets not blame Jews for everything). As Deeje pointed out, "There was no Judaism in Eden. There was no Judaism until Judah (fourth son of Jacob...the man after whom it is called) came into existence."
Deeje wrote: "Ignorance is not a terminal condition unless you seek no treatment for it." We can't find the meeting place for the treatment (because we're idiots). They said that we have to get sharp (but it hurts when we put our heads in the pencil sharpener).
Brian2 said "God told us that He can give us eternal life." Jesus said that we would have eternal life if we believe in Him (Jesus). Some dispute that God, Christ, and Jesus are all one. Some say that Jesus is called Lord, but he is the son of God, and that God is a jealous God who claims that He (God) is the only God and that there will be no other. The eternal life is not necessarily eternal life in heaven. It might be eternal life wandering the earth as a ghost (spirit), or eternal life burning in the lake of fire of hell. Remember that Jesus was nailed to a cross when he was "blessing" or "cursing" mankind with eternal life. Doesn't it seem like a curse, when a person begging for their life (asking God "why hath thou foresaken me)" bleeding from nail holes, decides to make souls live forever? That is what the average torture man would do (curse all of them to hell for all eternity).
Brian2 said: "death is the solution for all our sins." I thought that the death of Jesus was the solution for all our sins, and death is merely a jumping off point where we either go up or we go down (or perhaps stay where we are as a ghost). I think a lot of people would rather stay alive and continue sinning.
Brian2 said: "Bible says no one will be punished for the deeds of their ancestors according to Jeremiah 31:30." But Jeremiah 31:30 says that "every one shall die for his own iniquity (iniquity is immoral or grossly unfair behavior...Merriam-Webster quote from Oxford Languages). What if someone doesn't have immoral or unfair behavior? Jeremiah 31:30 is about dying, not about punishment.
Ratiocinator said "people who ask Jesus to fix their nature don't stop sinning." Jesus showed us how to behave (and if we follow the teachings of Jesus, we won't sin). The problem is, we know better but still sin. We ignore the homeless, ruin God's environment (Global Warming), lie about the environment, W. Bush redefined the word homeless so that the homeless don't exist....another way of lying, we pander to the rich (tax laws favor the rich getting richer while they have toilets made of God while others starve), we stand by idly as W. Bush sinned and defied God by attacking Iraq and bore false witness against them (like calling an Iraq the doctor of death), we watch as our Christian leaders ignore suffering (like Hurricane Katrina) and through apathy to kill, we stress our nation by outsourcing jobs for mammon while child slaves abroad manufacture our goods, etc.
Thomas T said "there's a difference between a mess and Christian trying to clean it up and just a mess." Christians are doing a lousy job of cleaning up (see paragraph above). The Exxon Valdez lesson was "don't drink and drive an oil tanker" (hmm....how did North America get there?) Texaco struck oil in South America, and the natives (living in grass huts) were feeling like uncle Jed....rags to riches. Until it was revealed that Texaco had paid a minor stipend to their chief for the oil rights and they got nothing. The chief had the best grass hut in the village, but the spills caused the game to die and go away, and caused their babies birth defects and cancer. Ordered to pay $500 person compensation (I know of no one who would enduring watching their baby die of cancer for $500 (mammon)).
On the cross, Jesus asked God "why hath thou foresaken me?" So, it was not Jesus's idea to be tortured to death on a cross, nor was it Jesus's idea to die for our sins.
Presumably, it was God's demand for payment for sins, and God's idea to kill Jesus.
Why would an all-powerful and all-knowing God need a demi-God sacrifice to forgive someone? Couldn't God just say "it is all forgiven?" Unless, we consider the idea that Jesus was a good person to be around (feeding the hungry, healing the sick, telling us how to live well). Then, the death of Jesus would be a punishment for mankind.
Does a loving God punish? Or is God vengeful and wrathful?
Evangelicalhumanist quoted (and agreed with) Hitchens: "created sick and ordered to be well." While the bible is an order to obey God's laws, and those laws presumably would make us well and keep us well, I think that Jesus's death is not an order, but a cure--it appeases God's request for demi-God sacrifice.
Deeje says (paraphrased): "original sin is a debt (of Adam, and others) passed to future generations, and Adam's sin was too great for Adam, alone, to pay."
This begs questions...."Do the deeds of an individual matter?" "Can you go to hell if you just handle your own debts and don't pay off Adam's debts?" "Do you accept Master Card?" Can a good person, devoutly committed to Jesus, Christ, and God (some believe all the same entity), go to heaven without paying off sins?
Now that Jesus died for our sins (God's idea for Jesus to die, of course), are we cleansed of sins or did generations that followed Jesus add more sins?
Wasn't the killing of Jesus a sin? After all, that was the son of God, and surely killing the son of t he most powerful being in the universe would be sinful? Why would God allow anyone to kill his son? Wouldn't God, like any parent, use whatever power he had to stop the horrible torture and killing of his son? Was killing Jesus God's way of teaching Jesus about the horrors of human torture?
Where were the awesome powers of Jesus as he was being totured to death? If Jesus could cure blindness, why couldn't Jesus cause blindness, and blind Pontius Pilate, and blind the Caesar who had ordered the death of Jesus (and ordered the death of all those poor tortured humans who lined every road to Rome)?
Was the death of Jesus purely the decision of humans or did God have a hand in making the decision to murder Jesus? Did God merely stand by and do nothing as Jesus was brutally tortured and murdered? If so, wouldn't that make God an accessory after the fact? In other words, it seems as though God sinned by allowing the death of his son.
A normal parent, with God's power, would be like Jeanie (I Dream of Jeanie) or Samantha (Bewitched), and blink him free, and smite all those who caused Jesus's death. But, notice that God did nothing to stop the Romans from killing (roads to Rome were littered with crucified humans). Furthermore, the Romans (seeing that they had a lot of power to control people) took over control of the Christian faith, and ruled it from the Vatican for thousands of years. The Vatican didn't have many non-Italian (Roman) popes, so Italia had a lock on Christianity. The Romans even put forth the false rumor that Jews wanted to kill Christ.
Deeje also said that God's law is "an eye for an eye, a thooth for a tooth, and a life for a life." While this is Jewish law, Moses also brought the commandment "thou shalt not kill (murder)," and Jesus changed "eye for an eye" to "turn the other cheek." Apparently these two conflicting orders from God were designed for a different people at a different time. In biblical times, Jews needed to kill to stay alive. In modern times, Christians are in charge of nukes, and one false move and the world will be turned to ash (as Vladamir Putin pointedly reminded the United States a few years ago when Hillary and Obama were suggesting nuclear war with Russia).
Deeje also said "perfect life offered willingly." Clearly Jesus was not willing to die, since he asked God "why hath thou foresaken me?"
Perhaps mankind's original sin is temptation, which we must constantly fight?
Eden, once hallowed ground where Adam and Eve dwelt, is still hallowed ground. The recent war in Iraq dropped bombs on Eden (located in Iraq between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in an area strewn with pottery shards, and now strew with bomb craters and tank tracks). Remember that Revelation said not to attack Iraq or face God's wrath (example: Revelation 15 (seven plagues, including COVID)). Revelation says that God will destroy all life on earth for the attack on Iraq . This is because the attack on Iraq (which happened during our lifetimes) is the greatest sin that ever was.
The killing of 1,000,000 innocent Iraqis, who had nothing to do with terrorism, along with a torture camp in Guantanamo, while God ordered no attack on Iraq, and God ordered "thou shalt not kill" and God ordered not to "bear false witness against thy neighbor," was the greatest sin that ever was, and that will destroy all of mankind and all of life. The war in Iraq put us in the end times. According to Revelation, the ones who made the two wars in Iraq are father and son demons (dragon and beast). The administration that was (Bush Sr.) that is no more (Clinton), is again (Bush Jr.), as the bible put it. In other words, the bible predicted that there would be a gap between the two Bush administrations.
Deeje said: "we are not being punished....we are the vitims caught up in a tussle between the forces of good and evil." Why can't God kill Satan and smite evil? Ratiocinator is right....God shouldn't allow innocent humans to be caught up in such a tussle.
Deeje said: "If you want what God is offering then it requires very little effort on our part to obey the one who requires compliance with his clearly stated laws." What about the clearly stated law that God commanded in divinely inspired Revelation--attack Iraq and incur God's wrath. Why did many Christians stand by and watch that war happen? France objected. Russia objected. Italy objected. Iraq certainly objected. The pope objected and wrote a strongly worded See to the United States urging that we not fight the war in Iraq (knowing that was part of the end times, and knowing that the war in Iraq would identify both Bush presidents as demons from the foul bottomless pit of hell, as stated in Revelation about the people who attacked Iraq). Revelation even identified the attacker of Iraq as the most powerful nation in the world (Revelation 17:18, which calls the United States the Whore of Babylon).
Subduction Zone said: "Christianity was created sas a solution to a problem that was created by Judaism." No, the problem wasn't created by the Jewish religion, it was created by Adam. Adam existed before the Jewish religion. (Lets not blame Jews for everything). As Deeje pointed out, "There was no Judaism in Eden. There was no Judaism until Judah (fourth son of Jacob...the man after whom it is called) came into existence."
Deeje wrote: "Ignorance is not a terminal condition unless you seek no treatment for it." We can't find the meeting place for the treatment (because we're idiots). They said that we have to get sharp (but it hurts when we put our heads in the pencil sharpener).
Brian2 said "God told us that He can give us eternal life." Jesus said that we would have eternal life if we believe in Him (Jesus). Some dispute that God, Christ, and Jesus are all one. Some say that Jesus is called Lord, but he is the son of God, and that God is a jealous God who claims that He (God) is the only God and that there will be no other. The eternal life is not necessarily eternal life in heaven. It might be eternal life wandering the earth as a ghost (spirit), or eternal life burning in the lake of fire of hell. Remember that Jesus was nailed to a cross when he was "blessing" or "cursing" mankind with eternal life. Doesn't it seem like a curse, when a person begging for their life (asking God "why hath thou foresaken me)" bleeding from nail holes, decides to make souls live forever? That is what the average torture man would do (curse all of them to hell for all eternity).
Brian2 said: "death is the solution for all our sins." I thought that the death of Jesus was the solution for all our sins, and death is merely a jumping off point where we either go up or we go down (or perhaps stay where we are as a ghost). I think a lot of people would rather stay alive and continue sinning.
Brian2 said: "Bible says no one will be punished for the deeds of their ancestors according to Jeremiah 31:30." But Jeremiah 31:30 says that "every one shall die for his own iniquity (iniquity is immoral or grossly unfair behavior...Merriam-Webster quote from Oxford Languages). What if someone doesn't have immoral or unfair behavior? Jeremiah 31:30 is about dying, not about punishment.
Ratiocinator said "people who ask Jesus to fix their nature don't stop sinning." Jesus showed us how to behave (and if we follow the teachings of Jesus, we won't sin). The problem is, we know better but still sin. We ignore the homeless, ruin God's environment (Global Warming), lie about the environment, W. Bush redefined the word homeless so that the homeless don't exist....another way of lying, we pander to the rich (tax laws favor the rich getting richer while they have toilets made of God while others starve), we stand by idly as W. Bush sinned and defied God by attacking Iraq and bore false witness against them (like calling an Iraq the doctor of death), we watch as our Christian leaders ignore suffering (like Hurricane Katrina) and through apathy to kill, we stress our nation by outsourcing jobs for mammon while child slaves abroad manufacture our goods, etc.
Thomas T said "there's a difference between a mess and Christian trying to clean it up and just a mess." Christians are doing a lousy job of cleaning up (see paragraph above). The Exxon Valdez lesson was "don't drink and drive an oil tanker" (hmm....how did North America get there?) Texaco struck oil in South America, and the natives (living in grass huts) were feeling like uncle Jed....rags to riches. Until it was revealed that Texaco had paid a minor stipend to their chief for the oil rights and they got nothing. The chief had the best grass hut in the village, but the spills caused the game to die and go away, and caused their babies birth defects and cancer. Ordered to pay $500 person compensation (I know of no one who would enduring watching their baby die of cancer for $500 (mammon)).
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
We have to repent to save us from the sins Jesus already paid for.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
God lacks imagination.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
God sent Hebrews to Egypt. They were enslaved and God ignored them for 4 centuries. He always blamed others for His actions. Later, God promised to save them and yet only a couple of people from that generation survived to the promised land.