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Featured Xtians, I forget, What Do We Need a Saviour For?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by lukethethird, Dec 23, 2020.

  1. lukethethird

    lukethethird Well-Known Member

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    Well?

    ...and while we're at it, what did we do that someone had to die for?
     
    #1 lukethethird, Dec 23, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2020
  2. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    You misunderstand -- you don't actually have to DO anything to merit somebody dying. You're born with it. You are, to quote Christopher Hitchens, "created sick and ordered to be well."

    A bit bizarre, in my view, but that's what the religion says.
     
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  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It isn't what we did individually but, a debt that was passed on by a family member that no one could pay. Do you know about the redemption laws in Israel? Christ is called a redeemer for a reason.

    Any debt incurred by a person could be passed on to the next generation until the debt was paid. A son or daughter could work to help pay off the debt, but if it was huge, it was just an ongoing thing unless some benevolent person (perhaps a wealthy relative) volunteered to pay the debt for them.

    This type of bond service sometimes lasted for generations where a near kinsman redeemer did not readily provide the ransom price.

    The sin of Adam plunged the whole human race into a debt that none of them could not pay. But if a redeemer would pay the set amount, then all of Adam's children would be freed from the debt that led to sin and it consequence, death.

    God's law stated "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life", (equivalency) so the life that Adam lost on account of his disobedience was not only his own, but the lives of all who would descend from him.

    Death through sin was like an inherited genetic disorder that is passed from one generation to the next. (Romans 5:12) The human race needed someone to pay the debt for them, but it was perfect human life that Adam lost, and there was not a perfect human on earth who could redeem mankind. That is why God sent Christ from heaven to become the perfect life offered willingly on our behalf. The debt was paid and mankind gained forgiveness of their sin and would eventually be released from this debt, but not until the whole human race was tested as to fitness for life in the Kingdom of God first.

    God's first purpose was to have a race of perfect but obedient, free willed humans to take care of the planet he created for them and all the creatures who would share it. He never abandoned his first purpose and we will see it fulfilled when he brings the inhabitants of this earth to an accounting. Just as life was conditional in Eden, (they had to remain obedient) so it will be in the new world of God's making. (2 Peter 3:13) Obedience is what God commands and that is what he expects.....only obedient ones will enjoy the life that God has in store for the human race, bought with a price that he willingly paid to redeem us. (Isaiah 55:11)
     
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  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    What is "the religion" that teaches such nonsense? Certainly NOT Christianity.

    The truth is......we were created perfect, but our first father handed us a raw deal. He disobeyed the only negative command that God gave him....and the result was harm to all his children. He knew what the penalty was before he committed the deed.

    We have been stuck with the results of what he did, but we had God to get us out of this mess. Christ paid with his life to redeem us (see above) and he teaches us how to stay in God's good graces until its time to go back to God's original purpose for mankind and this Earth.

    The issues raised in Eden had to be settled first, and answered by those who did as God instructed them. The Bible is full of accounts where men and women did obey God.....and those who did not. They are there for comparison. We need to learn what Adam failed to do....to obey God and give our complete trust as Jesus did.
     
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  5. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Let me say this as clearly as I possibly can:

    I AM GUILTY OF NOBODY'S WRONGDOING BUT MY OWN.

    If you want to be punished for the crimes of your ancestors, fine, you go for it. And I hope it makes you feel better, though I can't see how.

    But any so-called GOD that presumes to hold me accountable for what somebody else did is just as ignorant as most of the others humans I've ever encountered -- which is why I suspect that that is exactly who he is. The figment of imagination of a bunch of ignorant, gullible humans.
     
    #5 Evangelicalhumanist, Dec 23, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2020
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  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Nobody said you were. Just as no child is guilty of any wrongdoing by inheriting a genetic disorder from a parent.

    We are not being punished.....we are the victims caught up in a tussle between the forces of good and evil. We are the subjects of a rescue mission. Its not our fight, but we can choose sides...in fact we must because, according to the Bible (which you are free to ignore) there is already an established winner in this fight.....so who would choose to be on the side of the loser?

    All that did was tell me how clueless you are about our predicament. Shaking your fist at God alters nothing about his plans for the earth and this universe.....including what he had planned for our life here. If you want what God is offering then it requires very little effort on our part to obey the one who requires compliance with his clearly stated laws. If you do not wish to be a part of his plans, then he will not force himself on you....but please understand that he does not need any of us.......we need him to continue living. We have to see that his plans will go ahead, with us or without us....its our choice.
     
    #6 Deeje, Dec 23, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2020
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  7. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    That is what the Bible claims when it says that "sin" is inherited. This is one of the evils of the Bible.

    Oh wait! We are all going to heaven. That is great.

    No one is "shaking their fist at God" unless you want to claim that God is evil. He is angry at the idea of an evil God. You know the God of the Old Testament especially. Evil, incompetent, and vain. Clearly a fictional chracter.
     
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  8. lukethethird

    lukethethird Well-Known Member

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    So Christianity was created as a solution to a problem that was created by Judaism. Great, just what we needed, another religion to carry on.
     
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  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Dealing with people's ignorance is sometimes the hardest part of being a Christian.....do you actually have any idea what you just said? Since you identify as Xtian...please tell me what that means....? And who is the "we" in the title of this thread?

    How was the problem created by Judaism? There was no Judaism in Eden.....There was no Judaism until Judah (fourth son of Jacob...the man after whom it is called) came into existence. This was Abraham's great grandson....and, in fact there was no such thing as 'religion' when God created humans. Originally humans worshipped Yahweh after the flood of Noah's day, as there were no other gods worshipped. Noah and his family worshipped only one God and taught their children and grandchildren about him. It wasn't until Noah's great grandson Nimrod rebelled against Yahweh, that false religious ideas entered the minds of men. Nimrod planned to ignore God's directive to spread out in the earth, and he was determined to make a celebrated name for himself by building a huge tower in his great city of Babylon, but God put a stop to that by confusing their language and forcing them to abandon their project and take their new beliefs with them out into the world. Therefore we see common threads of beliefs running through all false worship.

    God's dealings with Israel (Abraham's descendants) were recorded for posterity so as to show God's worshippers in the future what happens when a people are in a covenant relationship with God obey him, (of their own volition) and what his expectations are of them...and they of him. Israel struggled for centuries to maintain their covenant relationship with God because of frequent excursions into false worship and a propensity to disobey God's law covenant through Moses. The separation of the 10 tribe Kingdom of Israel from the 2 tribe Kingdom of Judah is when Judaism became the 'religion' of the son of God, growing up in the tribe of Judah, in the Jewish faith.

    But by the time Jesus came to begin his ministry, Judaism had gone completely off the rails and Matthew 23 is his dressing down of the religious leaders of his day. It is interesting that Jesus was not sent to the religious leaders of Judaism....but only to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel".

    As the "Fine Shepherd", Jesus gathered a remnant of these Jewish 'sheep' and led them into a new pen. He did not create a new religion, but instituted the "New Covenant" foretold by Jeremiah. (Jeremiah 31:31-32) It operated under different circumstances and true to his promise to Abraham, it would include people of the Gentile nations as well.

    So as you can see...nothing you wrote has any validity according to scripture. It would be good if people could educate themselves a little before making silly comments that have little relevance to the thread. I don't think you "forgot"....judging by what you post.....I think you never knew.

    Ignorance is not a terminal condition unless you seek no treatment for it....
     
  10. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    So what kind of evil monster of a god would inflict this sort of thing on all of humanity?

    So why would an omnipotent god allow us to be caught up in this "tussle" - more indications that your god is a monster.

    And now we come the the silliest part of the whole bizarre story. In order to get rescued from this god ordained disaster, we have to believe the nonsense in an incoherent, disjointed, often self-contradictory collection of books and ask for forgiveness for what this god has done to us.
     
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  11. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    We all die. It seems natural, as all plants and animals die also. However God has told us that He can give us eternal life and so save us from eternal death.
    We all die because we all sin and in this way take after our ancestors.
    It would not be right for God to allowed us to live too long and keep doing the evil things that we do.
    Death is the solution for our sins. But lucky us, God loves us and wants us to avoid eternal death and so sent His Son to die in our place. He offers the gift of eternal life for those who see their need and put their faith in what He and His Son have done.
    That's the short story.
    Do you remember now?
     
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  12. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    Let me reply here, so that it's not solely a Jehova's Witness who explains the very basics of Christian faith here.

    What a horrible quote. This would be terribly unjust.
    Let me compare it to Shell and the rotten pipeline in the Niger delta.
    Lets assume they were right in asserting someone else broke it.
    They knew it was broken, but did not react. For many weeks. They could have fixed the thing but they did not do anything. As a consequence, there was a large oil spill. However, Shell later reached an agreement with the Ogoni people.

    Let me put it this way: we are not responsible for our nature being somehow wrong, but the moment we start to produce evil deeds, it's still our fault, because anyone could go ask Jesus to fix our own nature. This is at least how I see the issue.
    Bible says noone will be punished for the deeds of their ancestors: Jeremiah 31:30.
     
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  13. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    If everybody sins then it can't be a genuine choice not to (otherwise at least some people would make that choice). If humans were made by some god, then this 'sinning' seems to be a design flaw. This supposed god appears to be punishing us for its own sloppy handiwork.
     
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  14. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    But it clearly doesn't work. People who ask Jesus to fix their nature don't stop 'sinning'.
     
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  15. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Oh my! Is it? For some reason i never thought of it as being great, more an eternal nightmare
     
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  16. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    at least they learn how to say sorry, in my opinion. The first step when you become a Christian is "sorry God, I was wrong, please forgive!"

    In the Bible, there are many instances in which newly converted Christians try to clean up the mess that they produced before... one example of which is Luke 19:8.
    In my opinion there's a difference between a mess and Christian trying to clean it up and just a mess.
     
  17. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    Which doesn't change the fact that, according to your story, we have been born with a sinful nature, through no fault of our own, and are being condemned for it by your monstrous and unjust god.
     
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  18. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

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    Oh... why do we need teachers? It would take somewhat longer for everyone to learn arithmetic by himself without second and third grade teachers. Everyone probably wouldn't and commerce would be considerably slower. And, forget about calculus and going to the moon. Jesus was a great teacher who often taught by parable, but also demonstrated what he taught. The parables linger and are still helpful. Hey, maybe we'll get to the moon.
     
  19. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    no, God isn't monstrous and unjust.
    Let's compare it to the shell oilspill.
    At the beginning, Shell argued that since it wasn't them who broke the pipeline, it wasn't their fault and they are not responsible for the oil spill.
    Would you agree? Would you also say "Shell would be condemned for a broken pipeline that they didn't break?"
    Of course not, I guess. Shell was blamed for the oil spill, rightly so.
    Same may apply for the Bible, please.
     
  20. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    But the analogy simply doesn't work. It is unjust for god to give us no choice about being sinful. It is a further injustice to make any forgiveness dependant on believing the incoherent and often self-contradictory nonsense in the bible (which itself portrays the god character as a monster who orders and indulges in crimes against humanity, like genocide). It is also unjust that god (if it exists) is playing a silly and cruel game of hide-and-seek by providing absolutely no evidence whatsoever that there even is a god. And, as I said, asking for god to fix us, doesn't even work.
     
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