Would you believe in Shia Islam if its End Time Prophecies Occured?

[Looncall]

I'm most familiar with Evangelical End Time writings, but respect the beliefs of others. After all none of us can absolutely prove a thing until it happens. Most frightening to me is that as we approach the end time, a man is shot in the head but does not die, and he declares himself to be the leader of the world. The things he does are brutal and despicable. The return of Jesus, with or without the Mahdi is something I do not know a lot about. Without the return of the Messiah, all life would be destroyed.

We have no idea when that will happen, but I suspect we are getting perilously close. Praise be to Allah SWT.

I wouldn't worry about the end of the world. The sun will be stable for quite a while yet.

 

[Vinayaka]

If a JW group knocks on your door, all holding mangoes, I'm telling you right here and now that it will be nothing, absolutely nothing.... to do with me. !!

That would indeed be really tough, but I think I could probably pretend to be interested long enough to get the mango. Right now in Mauritius, mangoes would be free. Too bad it's like 30 hours on a plane to get there. But I can visualise.

 

[wandering peacefully]

Now that you mention it...

Ladder-backed Woodpecker - Introduction | Birds of North America Online

And if the queen was king, she'd have....

Oops. Meant for @Vinayaka. Another couple years I'll figure out this forum.

 

[Audie]

The age old dilemma, as recorded in all scriptures. There are those that do and those that do not.

Regards Tony

Age old, and in current events. It never ends.
Those who believed, and drank the
Kool-aid. Those who did not.

Those who think J Smith really found gold
tablets, or any of the other frauds that come
thick and fast.

Those who join every freakin' cult ever dreamed up.

Seems to some of us that the "didnt believe"
folks have been the smart ones, all along.

Perhaps someone could show how, statistically,
this is just bound to change at any minute, after
all those phonies, all these years, the real thing
is just sure to come along.

And some guy will get an email from a real
Saudi princess who will put her fortune in his
bank account then fly into his arms for
a very wealthy happily ever after.

There just has to be a real one. It is statistics.

 

[RedDragon94]

It is the belief of Shi Islam that a day will come when the Mahdi will appear along with Jesus and fill the earth with peace and justice once and for all.

Regardless of your current beliefs, if such an event occurred and the Prophecies were clearly fulfilled along with the supernatural events and miracles, will you believe in the Mahdi and join him or will you oppose him. And why?

That all depends on if Jesus comes back and tries to convert me to Islam. And I want to hear it directly from Jesus' mouth. If that doesn't happen I'll never be a Muslim.

 

[12jtartar]

It is the belief of Shi Islam that a day will come when the Mahdi will appear along with Jesus and fill the earth with peace and justice once and for all.

Regardless of your current beliefs, if such an event occurred and the Prophecies were clearly fulfilled along with the supernatural events and miracles, will you believe in the Mahdi and join him or will you oppose him. And why?

“Spirit_of_dawn,
If such a person comes at h end times, I will ignore him, because Jesus is coming to Judge the world. One of the things he will do is destroy any person involved in false religion, Acts 17:31, Jesus will do just as His Father tells him to do, and that is to destroy all who are called gods, and all who follow false gods, Jeremiah 10: 11-6, Psalms 115:1-8, 2Thessalonians 1:6-2, Acts 4:10-12, John 17:1-3. Agape!!!

 

[robocop (actually)]

It is the belief of Shi Islam that a day will come when the Mahdi will appear along with Jesus and fill the earth with peace and justice once and for all.

Regardless of your current beliefs, if such an event occurred and the Prophecies were clearly fulfilled along with the supernatural events and miracles, will you believe in the Mahdi and join him or will you oppose him. And why?

I might believe that Islam is true but also many other religions at the same time.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is the belief of Shi Islam that a day will come when the Mahdi will appear along with Jesus and fill the earth with peace and justice once and for all.

Regardless of your current beliefs, if such an event occurred and the Prophecies were clearly fulfilled along with the supernatural events and miracles, will you believe in the Mahdi and join him or will you oppose him. And why?

Before we get too far ahead of ourselves: what are these prophecies? Do they meet the five criteria of an actual fulfilled prophecy?

(Note: the list below was a response to Christians specifically - obviously, we'd be looking to the Quran for Muslim prophecies)

For a statement to be Biblical foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:

1. It must be accurate. A statement cannotbe Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.
3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguityprevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.

Biblical prophecies - RationalWiki

If we were to establish that they're real prophecies and really did come true, we'd have to ask how this happened.

For instance, maybe a trickster-god of some other religion is playing games with us. Or maybe Satan created the Quran with enough true prophecies to get humanity to follow the other parts. The mere fact that the prophecies were fulfilled wouldn't automatically mean that all Shia beliefs are correct.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

To the OP question, no. Because Islam's Eschatology is not original.

"The most helpful source I was able to discover was a book by Dr. Samuel Shahid called The Last Trumpet. He attempts to show that the major concepts of Islamic eschatology were borrowed from the Hebrew Scriptures, the Christian New Testament, and the concepts of Zoroastrianism. Dr. Shahid is the director of Islamic studies at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Ft. Worth, Texas. (See a complete bibliography at the end of this article)."
Source/More Reading:
Islamic Eschatology
What are the end-time prophecies of Islam?
By Dr. David R. Reagan

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It all sounds far too imaginary to me, too remote from actually being human. I much prefer the idea that while we're alive we do our best to behave decently to others. Then, as the Buddha and Plato's Socrates each said, get that right and you'll go to your end not greatly troubled; and if, to your great surprise, there's anything more (and given that it's a just place, which it needn't be ─ not a few are advertised as where only the best brown-nosers get the rewards) then you'll be in a sound position.
What messages? How do you know they're from God? They all say very much the sorts of things that humans would say.
Didn't they say something like that about the EU?

Still, it's an attractive aspiration.

Well done to you that is the way. Do good to all peoples.

Thanks for the chat, regards Tony

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Thank you everybody for responding. It is really interesting reading all the different opinions and arguments. There are so many responses. I will try to respond to as many as I can.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Pretty massive 'if''. If a woodpecker alien brought a huge flock of alien woodpeckers ...

Obviously it is a big if. That is why I chose this seemingly impossible IF. So if this IF occurs, would it be enough proof for you to believe?

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Hi Spirit.....

If............. if.............. and I'd be looking carefully at their idea of peace and justice.
But I would first be tempted to firstly join with Jesus, to apologise to him for having decided that he had only been a man with a mission against corruption in the Temple and priesthood...... nothing more.

Hi Oldbadger,

long time no see

In your opinion what is more decisive, the accomplishment of multiple impossible miracles even if their idea of peace and justice is different from that of yours, OR their idea of peace and justice even if they cannot perform any miracles?

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

I think most would. Everybody wants peace and justice, and if such a figure were to appear able to fulfill them, and was clearly indicated to be sent by God, I think most people without much hesitation would join any cause he would advance.

The reason people don’t convert to Shiism or any variety of Islam now is because we don’t see miracles or any other proof of divine backing; the Quran can’t be taken seriously by anyone not indoctrinated since birth; the life of Muhammed and the Rashidun disgusts us; Muslims’ claims about prophecies being fulfilled and developments in science “proving” the Quran are laughable, and, like certain other religions, the more certain its adherents are of it, the more arrogant, demeaning, and generally unpleasant they become.

Fair enough. The second paragraph needs multiple separate threads of discussions, which I might start later when I have time. And I am not saying I disagree with all of it.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

I’d join him, but i’d be sure to ask him why a supernatural God couldn’t end wars without mass killings of people given he could magically change the minds of miscreants.

It would after all seem a little unfair to give someone eternal punishment for one lifetimes crimes, especially if they are only acting the way God created them to act.

According to Shia traditions, the Mahdi will be to respond to all those questions. As a side note, we don't believe God will punish someone eternally because they were acting exactly like God had created them to act. Punishment and reward are only applicable where you have the choice to choose right or wrong.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

You're saying we get no say in this? We don't get to vote them in or out?

I have a deep and instinctive dislike and distrust of autarchy.
How will we know whether the purported miracles, supernatural events and fulfillment of prophecies are authentic or a put-up job? Will we be given the chance to subject them to proper scrutiny? Will the Mahdi and Jesus be on hand to answer all questions?

What objective test will tell us whether any thing or phenomenon is supernatural or not?

Generally speaking, I doubt we ever get a say in voting someone in or out if they have been truly appointed by God.

I think science has reached a state where you can realize what is natural and what is not supernatural. However, my understanding based on Shia scripture is this: the Mahdi will argue with the followers of all beliefs and argue with them based on their own beliefs and understandings, and yes everyone will be given the chance for proper scrutiny. He will respond to all questions.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

To the OP question, no. Because Islam's Eschatology is not original.

"The most helpful source I was able to discover was a book by Dr. Samuel Shahid called The Last Trumpet. He attempts to show that the major concepts of Islamic eschatology were borrowed from the Hebrew Scriptures, the Christian New Testament, and the concepts of Zoroastrianism. Dr. Shahid is the director of Islamic studies at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Ft. Worth, Texas. (See a complete bibliography at the end of this article)."
Source/More Reading:
Islamic Eschatology
What are the end-time prophecies of Islam?
By Dr. David R. Reagan

Regardless of the claims made in that book, if the Mahdi appears in the manner that I stated in the OP, will you believe?

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Actually, the real difference is this: Shias believe the Prophet and his successors must be infallible and chosen by God, Sunnis believe there is no need for the Prophet and his successors to be infallible and the successors are chosen by the people not God.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Before we get too far ahead of ourselves: what are these prophecies? Do they meet the five criteria of an actual fulfilled prophecy?

(Note: the list below was a response to Christians specifically - obviously, we'd be looking to the Quran for Muslim prophecies)


Biblical prophecies - RationalWiki

If we were to establish that they're real prophecies and really did come true, we'd have to ask how this happened.

For instance, maybe a trickster-god of some other religion is playing games with us. Or maybe Satan created the Quran with enough true prophecies to get humanity to follow the other parts. The mere fact that the prophecies were fulfilled wouldn't automatically mean that all Shia beliefs are correct.

Let's say the Prophecies meet the 5 mentioned criteria. Would they be enough? If not, what would be the tipping point?