1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Would the Catholic Church be the same without Papacy?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Estro Felino, Apr 18, 2018.

?
  1. Yes

    3 vote(s)
    23.1%
  2. No

    10 vote(s)
    76.9%
  3. Other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Messages:
    9,008
    Ratings:
    +2,548
    Religion:
    Pelagianism
    Well...that's what primarily makes the Orthodox Church and the Catholic one quite different from each other: the presence of a supreme, supposedly infallible (and often too sanctified) authority, which, in my opinion, is the residual of a medieval oppressive, theocracy.
    The presence of an absolute monarch as head of the RCC is not certainly Christian-like; the Bishop of Rome should remain the Bishop of Rome. Not a sort of king who lives in the tiniest kingdom of the world...and who acts like a saint on Earth and who is venered like a saint.
     
  2. Woberts

    Woberts The Perfumed Seneschal

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    2,742
    Ratings:
    +1,857
    Religion:
    Terminus Est.
    Even if there wasn't a Pope, the core teachings would most likely be the same.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    27,885
    Ratings:
    +13,406
    Religion:
    Germanic Folk Revival
    Well, this kind of extravagant crap does seem rather un-Christlike:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] (With a frigging train that needs to be carried! :rolleyes:)

    The Catholic church is a bloated, corrupt mess. Getting rid of the papacy would be a good step but it would make it something other than it would be now as it would throw out dogma and centuries of tradition (not that I care about that).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,536
    Ratings:
    +11,970
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    I tend to agree with you on that, assuming that the church would survive without a pope, but I don't make that latter assumption without hesitation.

    The pope is a central figure that is much more helpful historically as a unifying figure even though there were times when some popes were quite divisive. Without a centralized leader, the church would have likely fragmented into even more pieces than we already have seen within Christianity, and I have doubts that if this had happened earlier that it, and Christianity as a whole, would have survived. The Lutheran theologian Martin Marty feels that on three different occasions that Christianity was in such deep jeopardy that it's a miracle that it survived at all, which is why having a centralized figure and a faith that included apostolic succession may have been key to its survival.

    Just my thoughts.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,536
    Ratings:
    +11,970
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    Are you also "bloated, corrupt mess"?

    I ask this because what you have done is to stereotype the church, and if someone did that same thing to you, would you accept that?

    Yes, the church has had more than its fair share of controversies and scandals, but that's true of all Christian and non-Christian organizations. Blanket statements muddy the water, whether they be of the negative or the positive variety.

    Instead of making blanket statements, I think it's best to deal with the specifics and, to me, those "specifics" are very much a mixed bag.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    27,885
    Ratings:
    +13,406
    Religion:
    Germanic Folk Revival
    Um, no? A bit bloated, maybe. Lol.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  7. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    7,756
    Ratings:
    +3,740
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    It would probably be the same. The Pope is chosen by the College of Cardinals, so if they were running things without a Pope, they'd likely still run things the same way.

    I look at the Pope in the same way I look at European royalty. Relics of the past, kept around more for sentimental reasons than anything practical. At least in my country, people are free to walk away from the Church and thumb our noses at royalty. No need to worry about the Pope in his role as Church Administrator, since I'm not required to go to Church or follow its rules.

    I suppose any large organization would need some kind of "CEO" to run the day to day operations, but that can come in many forms. It doesn't have to be a pope or a king.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,536
    Ratings:
    +11,970
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    A pope really is not like a king since the Pope must work within the congregation of bishops and cardinals, even when speaking ex cathedra. He is the "Bishop of Rome", not the "King of the Catholic Church". Yes, he has significant influence, but he certainly is not a dictator.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    Messages:
    29,091
    Ratings:
    +14,863
    Religion:
    Beyond the Light
    I'm not so sure this would work. In very simplistic terms my brain automatically compared it to Pink Floyd. (Don't ask!)
    In the Roger Waters era, Pink Floyd was an "edgy" ever progressing band that never really failed to impress, both live and in the studio. Now, in the post Roger Waters era, we have a Pink Floyd that is still technically brilliant live but also one that seems to have no soul. It no longer produces memorable music. It is true that Roger was a total genius and a total jerk but they are just not the same without him. The sum is greater than the parts. I think it's much the same for the Catholic church. It would be like United Kingdom without the monarchy...
     
  10. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,307
    Ratings:
    +1,949
    Religion:
    Catholicism
    @Luca85 The presence of a strong, centralized papal authority is also what enabled the Catholic Church to avoid becoming the caeseropapist pawn of secular monarchs, like numerous Orthodox hierarchs throughout history (think the Russian Orthodox Church under Patriarch Kirill and Vladimir Putin). As the eminent legal historian Harold J Berman argued in his classic study, Law and Revolution: The Formation of the Western Legal Tradition:


    "...THE FIRST OF the great revolutions of Western history was the revolution against domination of the clergy by emperors, kings, and lords and for establishment of the Church of Rome as an independent, corporate, political and legal entity, under the papacy..."

    Even more to the point, modern secularism probably wouldn't have developed in Europe without the sphere of relative autonomy created within the Italian city-republics as a result of the centuries long tussle between the Papacy and the Holy Roman Empire, which ended in a stalemate in which neither side could dominate.

    In Medieval Political Theory - A Reader: The Quest for the Body Politic, ed. Cary J. Nederman and Kate L. Forhan (Routledge: London & New York, 1993), this 'Investiture Contest' between the papacy and empire is explained to have had serious implications for the rise and development of secularism. Here's an excerpt I will take from pp 15-16:


    The secular character of many Church offices became controversial over the course of the eleventh century, when the Church experienced several waves of reforms. The culmination of this reforming urge came with the elevation of Pope Gregory VII (1073-85), who prohibited the appointment of clerical officials by temporal rulers (so-called lay investiture) in a 1075 decree. Gregory's prohibition was unequivocal...

    This proclamation sparked off a conflict with the Roman Emperor Henry IV (1056-1106), who viewed the Gregorian position as a direct affront to his customary rights as a temporal ruler and to his ability to maintain political order within German society. In the course of the ensuing controversy, Gregory and Henry each asserted the ultimate authority of his respective office over the other, to the extent that they both issued proclamations of deposition against one another.

    The emergence of this conflict was significant for the development of medieval political thought in several ways...In sum the Investiture Controversy provided an early opportunity for thinkers to begin to speculate about the nature and origins of government and rulership, and thus created an intellectual climate within which secular political thought might emerge.

    The eventual resolution of the conflict was no less important for the evolution of medieval political ideas. The contest between papal and temporal authorities persisted into the early twelfth century, spreading to other Western European countries. Although it may be too simplistic to say that the views of the Gregorian reformers were victorious, the Church did succeed in establishing its independence from secular control in a manner analogous to that originally proposed by Gregory VII. In 1107 King Henry I of England renounced his rights of investiture, although on condition that ecclesiastical magnates continue to perform feudal homage to the Crown.

    Similar terms were accepted by the German Emperor Henry V (1106-1125) in 1122, after another prolonged period of strife between the imperial and papal powers. The effect of this resolution was more profound than it might appear. For thousands of years, the pre-modern societies of Rome, Egypt, China, Mexico, Peru and Japan, for example, were essentially theocratic, that is ruled by a God-King or by a priestly caste. The distinctively different character of Western and modern politics developed in part through the separation of secular from religious power. For in freeing the offices of the Church from the direct control of the princes, the secular rulers had also succeeded in liberating themselves from the immediate responsibility for religious and ecclesiastical affairs. Likewise, religious leaders liberated themselves from the burden of secular responsibilities. Henceforth, the world of medieval politics was understood to be composed of two mutually independent coordinate powers: the regnum (secular kingdom) and the sacerdotium (spiritual realm). Each of these spheres enjoyed its own distinct concerns and interests which, while somewhat overlapping, were fundamentally separate. This lent to temporal politics a measure of autonomy which it had not enjoyed previously during the Middle Ages. It also created a political climate within which theoretical speculation about uniquely human, earthly public affairs could commence. Thus, the resolution of the Investiture Controversy in the early twelfth century simultaneously heralded the dawning of a more strictly secular tradition within medieval political theory.

    As the political scientist Francis Fukuyama argued in his 2011 book, The Origins of Political Order:


    The Origins of Political Order


    "...The papacy established a strong tradition of rule of law in Western Europe as early as the twelfth century as part of the Catholic Church's effort to seek independence from the influence of kings who could depose popes at will...

    Two of the three basic institutions that became crucial to economic modernization – individual freedom of choice with regard to social and property relationships, and political rule limited by transparent and predictable law – were created by a premodern institution, the medieval Church. Only later would these institutions prove useful in the economic sphere
    ..." (p. 275)​


    Papal sovereignty was the model for state sovereignty and without his ability to operate as an independent actor on the world stage, the Catholic Church would be entirely beholden to the outside interests of political leaders backed up with armies.
     
    #10 Vouthon, Apr 18, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    19,810
    Ratings:
    +12,346
    Religion:
    None
    Here in the US, Catholics hardly consider the Pope infallible. From Humana Vitae to Laudato Si, from the pedophile coverups to declaring the USA invasion of Iraq a crime against humanity, few Catholics agree to anything just because the Pope says something.
    Tom
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Messages:
    45,257
    Ratings:
    +13,954
    Religion:
    Advocate of letting go of theism. Buddhist with an emphasis on personal understanding.
    Isn't that the chief disagreement between Catholicism and the Orthodox churches?

    That is generally true here in Brazil as well, but I think we can agree that it is also a tricky situation.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,536
    Ratings:
    +11,970
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    But these have nothing to do with infallibility Catholic-style. Papal infallibility only deals with pronouncements "ex cathedra" and through church councils, both of which are extremely rare and only deal with specific church doctrines. Also, by Canon Law the pope must work in conjunction with the bishops, so it's not a "do your own papal thing" thingy. Popes are very human, and some have been very corrupt.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,536
    Ratings:
    +11,970
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    One of the unfortunate things is that since the papacy is so easily observable, for better or worse, scant attention is paid to the real strength of the church: Joe & Mary Parishioner, who go to mass at their local church and pray, along with hearing readings from the Bible and listening to Father Whichamajigger give his homily (sermon), and then partaking in the Eucharist (communion), and then going home and eating Sunday dinner as a family.

    This is where the real action is.
     
    #14 metis, Apr 18, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
    • Like Like x 4
  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,536
    Ratings:
    +11,970
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    I'm not fond of monarchies in general, but just a reminder that the pope has no binding power in that people are free to come and go and to decide which church laws they wish to follow. And the conflict between they and the Italian government at times is historic and not without reason at times. Heck, many Italians feel the same way about their government.

    Also, I doubt very much that the Vatican has any desire to join the EU.
     
  16. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Messages:
    9,008
    Ratings:
    +2,548
    Religion:
    Pelagianism
    When Rome fell to the Italians and the Pope lost his state, all Romans, even Cardinals were thrilled because they were sick and tired of the theocratic, medieval city that had been kept repressed and captive for centuries.
    They wanted to remove all the decadent parts and rebuild a new vibrant city, as this scene suggests.
     
Loading...