Would Jesus torture animals for food ???

[Druidus]

Painted Wolf, you do not take into account the fact that they are bred into massive numbers, far larger than nature would allow. If people didn't eat meat, there wouldn't be billions of animals bred to such high numbers. As for what to do if people became vegetarian, steralize most of the livestock and let them die naturally. A billion deaths this year, which would die anyway, is better than a billion deaths every year forever (which will increase exponentially as the population of Earth increases).

 

[kreeden]

But fruit is wholly different, fruits have seeds, when fruit is consumed the seeds are not digested (mostly), the animal that ate the fruit can in this way transport the seeds large distances where they can grow into ickle baby plants and may one day hear the patter of tiny...shoots?...themselves. Awwww how cute!

Aniamal have " seed " too . So it would be ok if we took that " seed " and made clones ? Ok , I'm being silly here .

However , I have heard a 35,000 year old Atlantian say that if you can't hear the screams of a tomato being picked , shame on you . Although I don't usually listen to Atlantians , 35,000 year old or not , I have to agree . If life is precious , then ALL life is precious .

 

[Yerda]

I have heard a 35,000 year old Atlantian say that if you can't hear the screams of a tomato being picked , shame on you . Although I don't usually listen to Atlantians , 35,000 year old or not , I have to agree . If life is precious , then ALL life is precious .

So we should happily murder all living things without discrimination?

 

[Rozs]

This was dictated/written by Paul. Paul is an anti christ and is in direct opposition to many of the teachings of Jesus the Messiah. Paul's teachings are nullified. There are some debates and many articles on why Paul is an antichrist. http://www.taliyah.org/articles/paul.shtml this is a good article on it.

If that is so You must also disregard the writings of Luke. Because Luke told us the story of Saul/Paul. (In the book of Acts) He must be an anti-christ too. He is always with Paul. Because he was the beloved physician. Then you must also disregard the writings of Peter. Because Peter is accepting Paul as an Apostle. He believes in Paul. Peter must be an anti christ too.

II Peter
3:15
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you;

3:16
as also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

3:17
Ye therefore, beloved, knowing [these things] beforehand, beware lest, being carried away with the error of the wicked, ye fall from your own stedfastness.

3:18
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] the glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Then if Paul is an anti-christ, Luke is an anti-christ too. Because

ACTS
9:3
And as he journeyed, it came to pass that he drew nigh unto Damascus: and suddenly there shone round about him a light out of heaven:

9:4
and he fell upon the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And he [said], I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:

9:6
but rise, and enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

9:7
And the men that journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing the voice, but beholding no man.

9:8
And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw nothing; and they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9:9
And he was three days without sight, and did neither eat nor drink.

9:10
Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and the Lord said unto him in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord.

9:11
And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go to the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one named Saul, a man of Tarsus: for behold, he prayeth;

9:12
and he hath seen a man named Ananias coming in, and laying his hands on him, that he might receive his sight.

9:13
But Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard from many of this man, how much evil he did to thy saints at Jerusalem:

9:14
and here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call upon thy name.

9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles and kings, and the children of Israel:

9:16
for I will show him how many things he must suffer for my name's sake.

9:17
And Ananias departed, and entered into the house; and laying his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, who appeared unto thee in the way which thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mayest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Then Luke is an anti-christ too. Because he told us that Paul was chosen by Christ.
So you must disregard the writings of Paul, Peter and Luke. :tsk:

 

[painted wolf]

Druidus- there arn't that many more cattle than there were Buffalo... there were an estimated 60 million Bison in the USA in precolombian times. There were also 35 million Pronghorn, and similer numbers of Elk, Moose, White tails, Black tails, Mule Deer, Caribu, Big horn sheep, Bear and other animals. We'll go for roughly 375 million animals give or take a few million.
I'll leave out the thousands of small animals that were routinely eaten by my ancestors.

There are fewer animals today... 93 million cows, 14 milion pigs, 8 million and dropping sheep.
That gives us 115 million domestic animals for consumption again, give or take the odd million.

Eating a vegitarian diet will not bring back those 260 million animals. Wild animals need more space to roam... space they simply do not have thanks to the massive scale of food production in this country. Add to it the ammount of chemicals needed to keep pests down, fertalize and weed such massive gardens as the wheat belt and the corn belt.

neither side is perfect.

wa:do

 

[t3gah]

This probably isn't the right account for this thread but it shows what kind of regard Jesus had for animals.

The account is this:

There's a guy who's demon possessed and he lives among the graves. People try to tie him up, bound hand and foot but he breaks free every time. The guy slashes himself with stones and scares everyone that comes near him. Jesus comes to him, the demons cry out, then Jesus asks them their names, and they reply "legion". Jesus is about to expel the demons from the man but the demons ask a favor which Jesus grants. The demons want to possess a herd of pigs, 2000 to be exact. He, Jesus, says OK and then Jesus expels the demons from the man. The demons enter into the pigs and then the demons make the pigs jump off of a cliff into the water below where they drown to death.

Jesus, the Son of god who knows everything, etc. He had to know what was going to happen next.

Now I heard a crazy story that Jesus allowed this because having the pigs was a sin. Because Jesus didn't yet die on the cross which is what abolished the Mosaic Law that said you couldn't eat meat from a pig. Which then goes back to the "why did this farmer have 2,000 animals of something that was considered unclean to eat?"

I always wonder about this story in the bible because it shows Jesus not caring about a bunch of piggies. Tortured? The pigs were forced off of a cliff, which is like impossible to do with any animal really. You know, that inherent preservation thing.

Anyway, just an interesting tidbit dontcha think? No one ate them. The Son of God let some demons kill 2,000 innocent pigs. The story goes on to say that the villagers and farm hands tell Jesus to leave their area. They don't put him in jail or bring him before a court, which I suppose may have brought the person I know into thinking the Jesus was doing them a favor by eliminating their sin using a bunch of evil demons.

Oh, that scripture that says "abstaining from eating meats" is valid after Jesus dies on the cross. It doesn't apply to the people he and his disciples were preaching to until he died on the cross.

 

[t3gah]

[World English Bible]

Mark 5:1 They came to the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. 5:2 When he had come out of the boat, immediately a man with an unclean spirit met him out of the tombs. 5:3 He lived in the tombs. Nobody could bind him any more, not even with chains, 5:4 because he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been torn apart by him, and the fetters broken in pieces. Nobody had the strength to tame him. 5:5 Always, night and day, in the tombs and in the mountains, he was crying out, and cutting himself with stones. 5:6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and bowed down to him, 5:7 and crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.” 5:8 For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”

5:9 He asked him, “What is your name?”

He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” 5:10 He begged him much that he would not send them away out of the country. 5:11 Now on the mountainside there was a great herd of pigs feeding. 5:12 All the demons begged him, saying, “Send us into the pigs, that we may enter into them.”

5:13 At once Jesus gave them permission. The unclean spirits came out and entered into the pigs. The herd of about two thousand rushed down the steep bank into the sea, and they were drowned in the sea. 5:14 Those who fed them fled, and told it in the city and in the country.

The people came to see what it was that had happened. 5:15 They came to Jesus, and saw him who had been possessed by demons sitting, clothed, and in his right mind, even him who had the legion; and they were afraid. 5:16 Those who saw it declared to them how it happened to him who was possessed by demons, and about the pigs. 5:17 They began to beg him to depart from their region.

 

[Valjean]

Painted Wolf -- "Those animals" would not even exist if there were not a market for them. Druidus is making the point that using thousands calories of grain and a tankerful of water to produce a hundred calories of beef is a pretty inefficient system.

 

[huajiro]

Without getting into the Jewish Faith and all of that , I just want to ask one thing . Jesus fished , didn't he ? Or at the very lest , he had others fish for him ?

Ok , two questions . How much worst can a torture be then fishing ?


Ooophs , I was only half way through this thread when I replied . The discussion appears to have changed a bit . Things die so others can live . It is a fact of Nature . I guess that we could just take body parts off animals and let them go ? { which is basically what we do when we take fruit } . Personally , I would rather kill them .

I have stated this before...so many people talk about Man being part of the food chain...you wouldn't so readily dive into it if you were at the bottom and not the top, would you?

 

[huajiro]

ah Druidus... those animals would be eating the plants anyway... by my eating the animals I am sparing the plants so they can live longer.


wa:do

Painted Wolf....I have always respected your way of thinking....but here, I think youre actually being very sarcastic. It is one thing for you to defend your position on eating meat, it is another to make fun of something people feel very strongly towards.

 

[huajiro]

Aniamal have " seed " too . So it would be ok if we took that " seed " and made clones ? Ok , I'm being silly here .

However , I have heard a 35,000 year old Atlantian say that if you can't hear the screams of a tomato being picked , shame on you . Although I don't usually listen to Atlantians , 35,000 year old or not , I have to agree . If life is precious , then ALL life is precious .

Tomatoes are actually fruit.....fruit is made to be consumed.....the seed is not digested, it is supposed to pass through an animal's body and be fertilized by their droppings.

 

[blood-lord14]

i really seem to doubt your question
christ needs not food but the words
of god to stay alive.

 

[Popeyesays]

Both Kosher and Halal laws are primarily to protect animals from suffering.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Smoke]

I consider, that eating the flesh of animals that are raised in filthy overcrowded conditions, pumped full of hormones and anti biotics to keep them alive, end up insane because of the intolerable conditions they are kept in, and are then painfully slaughtered, and often skinned alive just to cater to someone’s desire to eat something they see as 'tasty' but is not essential for their health and well being, by any faith, to be against the ideas of peace, love, compassion, mercy, kindness and humility taught to man by Jesus Christ.

The bible may say that god said to Noah that he could eat dead animals flesh, and that we have “dominion’ over animals, (does dominion mean treat badly and cause to suffer for our own selfishness and greed ???) but it also says a lot about keeping slaves and stoning women who have sex to death.

Why did God originally make animals as Adams companions, telling man to eat plants and then change his mind ????. Did he originally make a mistake ?????


I’m sorry but I think that if you directly or indirectly cause this kind of incredible suffering to other living creatures, just to support a luxury diet, you do not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. In fact you are more likely doing the devils work without realising it.

I agree with you, and while I haven't decided to become a vegetarian over it, we have agreed to purchase only meat from free-range animals raised without hormones or antibiotics. That's considerably more expensive than eating "factory" meat, and it does mean we'll be eating less meat than before. But rice and beans are good, too.

 

[Smoke]

How do you then know whether something is truly free range?

Know where it comes from; visit the farm and talk to the farmer. Most organic and free-range farmers have strong convictions about what they're doing, and will be happy to talk to you about it.

 

[john63]

How do you then know whether something is truly free range?

You get a hunting liscense and go out and shoot it in the wild. That's free range.

 

[Smoke]

I am not opposed to meat. Just to suffering. If I had my own farm, I would let the animals live out their lives, and when they died, then I would eat them. I would not kill them for my own selfish reasons.

To each his own. I think I'd rather be a vegetarian than eat meat that had died of natural causes, though.

 

[Smoke]

Jesus did not kill animals for food. It is said that in the end times (When the Messiah returns), the animals will greatly benefit. There are too many animals caged up and tortured so people can eat food they don't need. Even meat that is labeled halal/kosher, do you know how it was raised? Should we blindly believe that in this age of deception this meat was raised cage free and free from hardship/torture/branding and killed properly. But Jesus was a nazarite, and therefore did not eat meat. When he returns, he will be one of the animal liberators, he will be vegan. Adam(as) was given the trees(fruit/nuts) and herbs and plants to eat. Noah was allowed to eat animals-after the flood. If there was a great flood, is it logical to think the vegetation would be washed away? I have seen small floods, even they uproot large trees. If there is no vegetation, then is it logical to think God allowed people to eat animals while things settled down and regrew(plants/trees/herbs)? In some areas(some desert areas/where the ground is frozen most of the year) it may be necessary to eat animals because the ground cannot sustain sufficient plant life for humans, but the scrub plants can be eaten by goats/sheep/deer/moose..., and they can in turn be eaten by humans. In "modern" countries, animals do not need to be eaten because there are usually grocery stores all over where fruits/vegetables/nuts can be purchased. In other words, animals should only be eaten out of necessity. I also recommend looking into health benefits of a vegan diet.

Anybody who wants to be a vegan should be a vegan. It's certainly a more sustainable way of living. So why support it with a bunch of hogwash and superstition? Jesus was not a Nazirite, and it's absurd to think the stories of Adam and Noah are factual. I'm not a vegan and am not likely to become one, but I can absolutely guarantee you I wouldn't be convinced by that kind of argument.

 

[Smoke]

"Free range" does not have a legal definition. It means whatever the "manufacturer" wants it to. Anyone is free to use it on any product they want, thus, it is not a reliable indication of humane treatment.

Actually, "free range" does have a legal definition in the U.S., but it's not very comforting. All it means is that the animals have had access to the outside. Period.

That's why, again, if you care about these things, you should know where your food comes from.

 

[Smoke]

I know that is conventionally known, painted wolf, but there was a study done, by an omnivore, that shows that our ancestors didn't eat much meat, if any.

Many scientists believe meat-eating was essential to our evolution. See, for example, http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html