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Would Jesus torture animals for food ???

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by maike, Dec 21, 2004.

  1. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    He goes on to say in Acts 10:28 "You know that it is unlawful for a Jew to keep company or come unto one of another nation, but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common(impure) or unclean." Peter's interpretation of his vision was that he should refer to no man as unclean or impure/common if he has been made clean by God.
     
  2. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    This was dictated/written by Paul. Paul is an anti christ and is in direct opposition to many of the teachings of Jesus the Messiah. Paul's teachings are nullified. There are some debates and many articles on why Paul is an antichrist. http://www.taliyah.org/articles/paul.shtml this is a good article on it.
     
  3. maike

    maike Member

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    Thank you Rozs, you have finally convinced me to give up on this arguement.
    The God in your Bible is clearly a psycopath,responsible for such increadable suffering. Why wouldnt he support animal cruelty too
    I have been reading more of the bible because of this debate, and I'm convinced that anyone who would worship such a cruel, selfish, controlling, manipulating, sexist, murdering, destroying, evil , homophobic entity must have some serious problems themselves.
    I guess some "Christians" do follow the teachings of Jesus, but how Jesus ever got conected to this "God" i dont know.
    Lets hope its Jesus and not the woman slaver and stoner, mass murderer God that brings Heaven to Earth
     
  4. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    hmmm... as much as I'm loath to get into a heated debate about the merits of diet. ;)
    In my faith plants and animals are equil.... they both have souls and lives to live.
    How can I choose to accept the sacrifice of Seleu the corn mother and other plant people and not the sacrifice of the animal people?
    What makes one life more worthy of living its time out than another?

    I do not support animal cruelty, animals deserve as much respect as any living thing... by the same token I try not to needlessly harm plants that also deserve that respect. I do not pick flowers, I only take the vegtables from my garden after prayers and thanks-giving.
    I do the same for the animals that I eat. I choose to eat only animals that have been raised in humane ways and killed in a responcible way. I have a friend who is a butcher and offers prayers for the animals that he must kill. He makes shure that he is as quick as possible and that he communicates his need to the animal. He makes shure that none of the animal is wasted afterwards, nothing is thrown away. He brings anything he can not use himself to others and if they cant use it he has a 'gift' pile out in the woods for the local predators who want a break from hunting. This makes sure that the death of one serves many and may save another life.

    I do not hold myself any higher than any other living thing on earth. When I die I will be food for many other lives. (I refuse to be pumped full of chemical preservitives) If my death serves to keep others alive then I have done the last sacred duty I can.

    I respect the fact that some can not bring themselves to eat the flesh of another animal. That is the choice we have in todays world. But please, realize that others have the choice to not follow your path. It does not make them more evil than another and some have just as valid a reason for walking thier path as you do.

    wa:do
     
  5. huajiro

    huajiro Well-Known Member

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    "God" ordered someone to kill animals....I doubt that he/she would ever "order" this....not the "God" I believe in.
     
  6. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    [World English Bible]
    (John 6:8,9) 6:8 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, said to him, 6:9 “There is a boy here who has five barley loaves and two fish, but what are these among so many?”

    (Mark 6:38) 6:38 He said to them, “How many loaves do you have? Go see.” When they knew, they said, “Five, and two fish

    (Mark 6:41) 6:41 He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, he blessed and broke the loaves, and he gave to his disciples to set before them, and he divided the two fish among them all.
    I don't know about you but dividing usually denotes making into pieces in my book. How else are you going to portion it out?

    So it's a matter of viewpoints.. is dividing the same as ripping up? I say yes unless someone had a knife.:)



    As for the fish on the fire incident. This is after Jesus was resurrected. Jesus is alone on the shoreline...
    (John 21:1-9) 21:1 After these things, Jesus revealed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias. He revealed himself this way. 21:2 Simon Peter, Thomas called Didymus, Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two others of his disciples were together. 21:3 Simon Peter said to them, “I’m going fishing.”

    They told him, “We are also coming with you.” They immediately went out, and entered into the boat. That night, they caught nothing. 21:4 But when day had already come, Jesus stood on the beach, yet the disciples didn’t know that it was Jesus. 21:5 Jesus therefore said to them, “Children, have you anything to eat?”

    They answered him, “No.”

    21:6 He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.”

    They cast it therefore, and now they weren’t able to draw it in for the multitude of fish. 21:7 That disciple therefore whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It’s the Lord!”

    So when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he wrapped his coat around him (for he was naked), and threw himself into the sea. 21:8 But the other disciples came in the little boat (for they were not far from the land, but about two hundred cubits away), dragging the net full of fish. 21:9 So when they got out on the land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid on it, and bread.
     
  7. huajiro

    huajiro Well-Known Member

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    The "Bible" has been tainted by "Man" to support their desires. Stop and think about it.....there are many contradictions in it caused by this.
     
  8. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    "Free range" does not have a legal definition. It means whatever the "manufacturer" wants it to. Anyone is free to use it on any product they want, thus, it is not a reliable indication of humane treatment.
     
  9. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    Correct.

    To paintedwolf:

    It's about the reduction of suffering. A plant will not suffer while dying, to the best of our knowledge, as it doesn't even have the semblance of neural cells, whereas almost all animals will suffer.
     
  10. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    thus you actually check out the source of your food. I know my food comes from humane farmers.
    I simply said that it was a start in finding a humane source of meat, not that it was the perfect way. 'organic' in general is a loosely applicable term and not a more relyable source of safe food.

    and plants to not have the same neural stucture as we do but it has been proven that plants reccognize they are being attacked and 'hurt'. They give off 'distress' cries in the form of chemical signals which some insects and most other plants are capable of responding to.
    True it isn't the 'pain' we are used to but it is the reccognition of damage to yourself wich is by definition 'pain'.
    Plants are the only things we eat while they are still alive...
    At least the animal gets killed first, and the death can be made swift and with minimal suffering.

    wa:do
     
  11. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    We eat plants while they ar estill alive?

    By you logic, however, is it not logical to assume that a fruitarian is the most moral of all? Fruit is the only food freely given. The plant does not die, and, indeed, the fruit is meant to be taken. There is even evidence that early humans were fruitarian, although supported by insects.
     
  12. huajiro

    huajiro Well-Known Member

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    Atkins should have been a fruitarian.....he would still be around
     
  13. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    Druidus- our ancestors have always been omnivorus.. our immediate ancestors (all memebers of the genus Homo) have been active hunters of meat. We have a history of meat eating that goes back several million years. ;)

    fruit is the only freely given food... respect is nessisary for any diet. Meet or plant you take a life... respect for both is nessisary. From my religious standpoint you can not hold any life higher than anothers, plant or animals we are all equil... we are all brothers.

    Atkins died from slipping on some ice and knocking his head due to wich he slipped into a coma... not due to his diet.:tsk:

    wa:do
     
  14. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    I know that is conventionally known, painted wolf, but there was a study done, by an omnivore, that shows that our ancestors didn't eat much meat, if any. He examined chimp jaws (and other primates), and scanned the teeth with a certain instrument. He was able to determine that eating meat produced different effects on the teeth over time then did plant matter. He used this instrument on some ancestors/offshoots of human to find out what they ate. The different species of australopithecus showed little meat consumption at all, and future descendants of those species showed a remarkably high consumption of plant matter, compared to flesh.
     
  15. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    While we remained in Africa hominids, like chimps, were probably unable to secure a great deal of meat. During the Pleistocene (ice age), however, populations which had moved into Europe probably subsisted largely on flesh. This is known to be the case in North American and Siberian populations, and Innuit, Sammi and other arctic cultures somehow survived until recent times on virtually no vegetable material at all. How they avoided scurvy remains a mystery.
     
  16. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    Not a mystery at all. I know for a fact that the Inuit (about 80% of the population in my town is Inuit) have a gene set that differs from the normal population of humans. Their bodies are more suited for the digestion of meat than ours are. They are also the last of the Native Americans to come over to America. Therefore, it is possible that the high north Siberians could have the same adaptations. As for the plant matter they eat (If they ate none, they would die), seaweed, berries, the half-digested contents of caribou stomachs are high on the list. A little bit south of here and there are even some fruits (little bit, of course, meaning couple hundred kilometres). I'm not disputing that homo sapiens didn't eat meat, no, not at all.
     
  17. kreeden

    kreeden Virus of the Mind

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    Without getting into the Jewish Faith and all of that , I just want to ask one thing . Jesus fished , didn't he ? Or at the very lest , he had others fish for him ?

    Ok , two questions . :) How much worst can a torture be then fishing ?


    Ooophs , I was only half way through this thread when I replied . The discussion appears to have changed a bit . :) Things die so others can live . It is a fact of Nature . I guess that we could just take body parts off animals and let them go ? { which is basically what we do when we take fruit } . Personally , I would rather kill them .
     
  18. Jaiket

    Jaiket Well-Known Member

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    Indeed it happens throughout nature, so full marks for observation.

    Cutting the limbs from animals does sound much more unethical than simply killing them Kreeden, I agree.

    But fruit is wholly different, fruits have seeds, when fruit is consumed the seeds are not digested (mostly), the animal that ate the fruit can in this way transport the seeds large distances where they can grow into ickle baby plants and may one day hear the patter of tiny...shoots?...themselves. Awwww how cute!

    It also looks like a wonderful example of how organisms have co-evolved. A bit of inter-genus midwifery if I ever saw it.
     
  19. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    Inter-kingdom you mean? :p

    I'll PM this.

    Fruit is meant to be taken. It is a reproduction strategy of the plant.
    Or we could just not eat them. Simple enough. No suffering at all.

    Painted wolf:

    When you are eating both plants and animals, you are causing the deaths of more organisms as a whole. Livestock animals need to eat many more plants than you do, and the average American eats about 2-3 whole cows a year. Therefore, the deaths caused are the 2-3 cows, the plants these 2-3 cows have eaten, the plants any of the other animals you eat have eaten, and the plants that you, yourself, have eaten. A much greater total deaths then if you had eaten just plants.
     
  20. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    ah Druidus... those animals would be eating the plants anyway... by my eating the animals I am sparing the plants so they can live longer. ;)
    That and I would be causing the massicre of millions of animals by turning them loose to live in the wild with no skills to do so. Whats worse thier deaths would be useless as in a vegitarian world as they would simply rot in massive numbers. Wandering around amlessly, they would cause accidents as they stood in roads, fell into ditches and pools and so on. What would happin when they decided to eat our gardens, *bang* :rolleyes:

    wa:do
     
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