Would it be best for evolutionists to just ignore creationsts?

[Father Heathen]

I am just an old man, but I was taught both theories all my life and so I studied both. With all due respect to all involved, I actually found, "in the beginning, God..." made the most sense to me. Even the 3/4ths of the world covered in water and the deep basins that now exist in the ocean seem to possibly point to the Great Deluge of Noah. I love science, especially when I can experiment on things here and now and come to logical conclusions and prove a theory to be a law. But with historical type science, trying to explain something from long ago is more challenging and depending on one's perspective, different conclusions are drawn.There are even many scientists who once were evolutionists but now question the theory and many who have become creationists. I hate to see a war over such ideas from either side. I don't think people on either side are stupid, but all the fighting is.

Just so you know, the concept of god and the theory of evolution are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Father Heathen]

What is a person’s starting point, the Origin of the Species, the Bible, or something else. And from that starting point, the scientific data is interpreted.

The starting point should always be the evidence, and through the study of such, via the scientific method, is how you arrive at your conclusion. That's the problem with creationism, it starts with the conclusion and tries to shoehorn and cherry pick evidence that seemingly supports their hypothesis.

 

[Father Heathen]

What I will admit to is if it is important for the schools to mention Darwin, then it is important for me to also.

He is important from a historical perspective, but his scientific understanding is dated by today's standards, since our knowledge and understanding has grown considerably in the 150 years since.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sorry to go back to this, but you said something here I missed the first time around:

I love science, especially when I can experiment on things here and now and come to logical conclusions and prove a theory to be a law.

The fact that you would say something like this indicates that you don't know how the terms "theory" and "law" work in science:

Law: a relationship between two or more phenomena that is supported to a high degree by the evidence.

Theory: a set of principles, also supported to a high degree, that has good predictive and explanatory power.

A theory isn't an "unproven law". Both theories and laws have a high degree of evidentiary support, and theories doesn't "graduate" to become laws.

The theory of evolution isn't a theory because it's poorly supported; it's very well supported. It's a theory because it's very good at making predictions about the world and explaining what we see.

And in fact, there are many laws within the theory of evolution. Darwin himself proposed five laws of evolution. Since then, other scientists have discovered a range of laws within all facets of evolutionary science.

 

[johnhanks]

Just saying if there's no God, then one can do whatever they want. Communist dictators are a good example.

Equally, if one believes there is a god and he's on one's side, then one can do whatever they want. Old Testament patriarchs are a good example - all those divinely approved genocides...

 

[Father Heathen]

If I consider evolution to be adaptation and change to environmental pressures then yes God does use that. However the ToE as a whole where mankind came from an ape like creature and that ape like creature came from a different creature, on down the line to a mud puddle, isn't Biblical.

Evolution states that death came before mankind.
The Bible states that death came after mankind had the capability to sin by eating a forbidden fruit.

Evolution states that thorns and thistles came before mankind.
The Bible states that those were a result of mankinds sin.

Evolution states that dinosaurs were extinct before mankind came into the scene.
The Bible says all animals and mankind were created on the same day.

Evolution states that mankind came about from millions of years of evolution.
The Bible states that all life forms, the earth and the universe were created in 6 days and the earth is approx. 6,000 years old.

And just by reading those comparisons, the biblical accounts don't sound completely absurd and irrational to your ears at all?

And again, some ancient book written by primitive goat herders doesn't have a monopoly on the concept of god.

 

[Draka]

Now you sound like my wife. Just saying if there's no God, then one can do whatever they want. Communist dictators are a good example.

I'd like to comment on this too now that I think about it. I don't think I've ever come across an atheist who honestly thinks they can just do whatever they want. Morals and ethics, right and wrong, laws themselves, do not rely upon there being a deity. Those things are attainable through reason and logic, sympathy and understanding of the basic human condition. If anything, religions have just pulled their laws and rules from accepted societal rules of the surrounding culture they grew in.

 

[Father Heathen]

If I accept your dating methods, sure.

And therein lies the problem. You'll reject anything that conflicts with the bible regardless of how sound and solid it is in reality.

 

[Father Heathen]

If he dies and comes back to life, let me know.

Osiris came back to life.

 

[Draka]

And therein lies the problem. You'll reject anything that conflicts with the bible regardless of how sound and solid it is in reality.

-Hey boss, I found all this evidence that contradicts our model!
-Well, our model isn't wrong, it can't be, so the evidence must be. Chuck it all out as unreliable.
-But, there's so much of it!
-Doesn't matter. We can't be wrong...so it must be. Just ignore it.

 

[Father Heathen]

Nah, I tried my best to believe in evolution in my early twenties so I could justify my sinful lifestyle.

What a bizarre non-sequitur. What does biological adaptation have to do with ethics and morality?

 

[Father Heathen]

Just saying if there's no God, then one can do whatever they want.

Why would superstition be a prerequisite for ethics and morality? We still possess reason and compassion and actions still have cause and effect with or without an invisible sky daddy.

Communist dictators are a good example.

And 9/11, the crusades, slavery, the inquisition, misogyny, the dark ages and theocratic regimes are good examples of piety and religious devotion causing tyranny and injustice, so what's your point?

If anything, religion has done far more ill for humanity than it has good.

 

[Father Heathen]

Thank-you for your reply. I still believe in Creation over evolution. You have a nice day, and again, thanks for your reply.

If you wish to wallow in willful ignorance and intellectual dishonesty then that is your prerogative, but what do you hope to achieve by continuing to spam the thread?

 

[Draka]

If anything, religion has done far more ill for humanity than it has good.

Some interpretations of some religions. Let's not broadbrush okay?

 

[javajo]

If you wish to wallow in willful ignorance and intellectual dishonesty then that is your prerogative, but what do you hope to achieve by continuing to spam the thread?

I'll leave then, but speaking of willful ignorance:

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

 

[doppelganger]

Ah, the classic revenge fantasy - slash - threat argument. An oldie but a goodie.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'll leave then, but speaking of willful ignorance:

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Do you really think that people who accept evolution as true are "walking after their own lusts"? Is there no room at all in your worldview that people can arrive at this conclusion simply by honest evaluation of the evidence at hand?

 

[Revoltingest]

I'll leave then....

Don't do that!

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

I'm OK with lust.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

It's hard to be willingly ignorant of something magical.
Tis like criticizing one for being willingly ignorant of Thor, Zeus, The FSM, Peter Pan or fiscally conservative Democrats.
(The last one is for Angellous...wherever he is.)

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Meh....I'll take my chances with my best judgement.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Do you really think that people who accept evolution as true are "walking after their own lusts"? Is there no room at all in your worldview that people can arrive at this conclusion simply by honest evaluation of the evidence at hand?

An actual understanding of the concept of arriving at conclusions by honest evaluation of the evidence at hand seems to correlate strongly with the practice of it.

 

[camanintx]

Nah, I tried my best to believe in evolution in my early twenties so I could justify my sinful lifestyle. The facts led me to believe in Creation and deeper faith in Christ.

If your faith in Christ is all that keeps you from sinning, then by all means keep it. Some of us don't need that crutch though.

Now you sound like my wife. Just saying if there's no God, then one can do whatever they want. Communist dictators are a good example.

Something tells me you haven't heard of Euthyphro's dilemma.

I'll leave then, but speaking of willful ignorance:

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Predicting that people will scoff at your ideas doesn't make them right.