• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Would God do what God has never done?

Muffled

Jesus in me
God has given sufficient word for people to know He exists, not only in the Bible but in the Qur’an and the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

If the Bible had been sufficient, there would not be so many atheists.

According to my Baha’i beliefs, there is no such thing as “saved” because there is nothing to be saved from, except our lower material selves.

Nobody is a lost cause, there is always hope.

I believe that is illogical. The lack of results does not come from the Bible but from the person reading or ignoring it. The fact is that later writings make it less likely a person will be saved because it gives them a false alternative.

I believe the exception proves the point to some degree but I also believe the spirit has bad habits learned over several lifetimes.

i believe that comes under the heading of wishful thinking. Of course God will not give up completely on a person but He isn't going to waste His time. He will bide His time.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I can't imagine any scenario where it would be reasonable to expect a god to communicate with humanity in any way whatsoever, whether directly as you describe or indirectly through messengers. The idea that a god might have any sort of message for humanity seems ludicrous to me.

I believe it seems reasonable to me that an intelligent being can communicate with another intelligent being. I believe a God who is wise has something to teach those who are not. I also believe His motivation is love for His creation.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe that is illogical. The lack of results does not come from the Bible but from the person reading or ignoring it.
I believe that is true. People determine their own results.
The fact is that later writings make it less likely a person will be saved because it gives them a false alternative.
I do not believe there is anything to be saved from, since I do not believe in original sin.

Even if there was a need to be saved, it is a requirement that Baha'is believe in Jesus so we are covered.
i believe that comes under the heading of wishful thinking. Of course God will not give up completely on a person but He isn't going to waste His time. He will bide His time.
I believe you are right. God is not going to waste His time, even though time is not an issue for God, but you get the point. It is humans who have to be careful not to waste our time because our time is limited.

You are right, some people are hopeless, and I finally realized that and stopped posting to them.
I guess Jesus called that shaking the dust off our feet and moving on.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
For purposes of this thread, let’s act as if God could communicate a direct message to everyone in the world that would convince everyone in the world that God exists. This assumes communication from God that convinces them it is “really God” speaking.

We know that God has never done that because if God had done that everyone in the world would believe that God exists.

For purposes of this thread, let’s assume that God has never communicated a direct message to everyone in the world that would convince everyone in the world that God exists.

Some people believe that God could communicate a direct message to everyone in the world because God is omnipotent. The question I am posing to you is if you think that God would do that, even though God has never done that before?

I am not asking you if God could do that. I am asking you if God would do that.

Yeah God is doing it and communicating to every human being. But it is important to see if the human being is receptive or not to such messages he receives as intuition.

Intuition descends only in a pure mind and not in a restless mind made impure by numerous cravings and aversions.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I believe it seems reasonable to me that an intelligent being can communicate with another intelligent being. I believe a God who is wise has something to teach those who are not. I also believe His motivation is love for His creation.
A less snarky response thsn my last one:

Communication isn't just an expression of intelligence; it's also an expression of sociality.

Regardless of how intelligent it is, why would you ever expect God - the most solitary of beings, if it were to exist - to exhibit sociality? On top of that, why would you expect this solitary God to be especially interested in sociality with us?

I can see an obvious answer: that God was manufactured by humans specifically to allow humans to relate to the unrelatable, and anthropomorphisms like sociality and sociability are part of the point... but I'm guessing that you reject this explanation for God, so I wonder what other possible reason you have to assume that God would be social like a human to the point where it would want to communicate with humans.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
..... so I wonder what other possible reason you have to assume that God would be social like a human to the point where it would want to communicate with humans.
Maybe Christians believe that God communicates with humans back and forth, but I do not believe that.
I believe that God speaks to humans through a Messenger and then goes back into hiding.
God is not a social Being.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Maybe Christians believe that God communicates with humans back and forth, but I do not believe that.
I believe that God speaks to humans through a Messenger and then goes back into hiding.
God is not a social Being.
But communication - even one way - is an expression of sociality.

Why would a non-social being behave in a social way?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But communication - even one way - is an expression of sociality.

Why would a non-social being behave in a social way?
The definition of social is "needing companionship and therefore best suited to living in communities." God does not need companionship or live in a community.

The only reason I can think of that God would speak through Messengers is that God has a message for us. God wants nothing for Himself because God has no wants, so the message must be for us.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The definition of social is "needing companionship and therefore best suited to living in communities." God does not need companionship or live in a community.
Instead of telling me what I meant, maybe try asking what I mean.

Intentional communication is a social behaviour.

The only reason I can think of that God would speak through Messengers is that God has a message for us. God wants nothing for Himself because God has no wants, so the message must be for us.
If God has no wants, then he has no motivation to action.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Intentional communication is a social behaviour.
I agree that if the communication is with the intent of having a dialogue, that would be social, but God has no such intent. God speaking to one Messenger through the Holy Spirit is not even a dialogue with that Messenger... It is simply delivery of a message.
If God has no wants, then he has no motivation to action.
God has no wants because God has no needs.
However, human have needs and God cares about our needs.
That does not mean God is social.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Go to your local aquarium. Find the octopus, have a conversation with it, then let me know what it communicated to you.

an octopus does not have the same kind of intelligence that I do. And it is true that God has a higher intelligence than mine but He manages to talk to me anyway in a way I can understand.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe that is true. People determine their own results.

I do not believe there is anything to be saved from, since I do not believe in original sin.
Even if there was a need to be saved, it is a requirement that Baha'is believe in Jesus so we are covered.

I believe you are right. God is not going to waste His time, even though time is not an issue for God, but you get the point. It is humans who have to be careful not to waste our time because our time is limited.

You are right,
some people are hopeless, and I finally realized that and stopped posting to them.
I guess Jesus called that shaking the dust off our feet and moving on.

I believe you have inconsistent thinking.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
A less snarky response thsn my last one:

Communication isn't just an expression of intelligence; it's also an expression of sociality.

Regardless of how intelligent it is, why would you ever expect God - the most solitary of beings, if it were to exist - to exhibit sociality? On top of that, why would you expect this solitary God to be especially interested in sociality with us?

I can see an obvious answer: that God was manufactured by humans specifically to allow humans to relate to the unrelatable, and anthropomorphisms like sociality and sociability are part of the point... but I'm guessing that you reject this explanation for God, so I wonder what other possible reason you have to assume that God would be social like a human to the point where it would want to communicate with humans.

I believe you are right. I do reject that concept.

I believe that was formerly true but after the creation there were intelligent beings t talk to.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
an octopus does not have the same kind of intelligence that I do.
Please try not to hurt your back as you move that goalpost.

So you have the same type of intelligence as God?

And it is true that God has a higher intelligence than mine but He manages to talk to me anyway in a way I can understand.
... you assume.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
For purposes of this thread, let’s act as if God could communicate a direct message to everyone in the world that would convince everyone in the world that God exists. This assumes communication from God that convinces them it is “really God” speaking.

We know that God has never done that because if God had done that everyone in the world would believe that God exists.

For purposes of this thread, let’s assume that God has never communicated a direct message to everyone in the world that would convince everyone in the world that God exists.

Some people believe that God could communicate a direct message to everyone in the world because God is omnipotent. The question I am posing to you is if you think that God would do that, even though God has never done that before?

I am not asking you if God could do that. I am asking you if God would do that.

He will do that, he will testify to the Mahdi universally and everyone will hear it in their own language. This will be one of the signs for the Mahdi when he comes. But you concluding everyone would believe in God is wrong. Satan is a disbeliever in God despite hearing his voice from the barriers of light from God. Despite the exalted ones manifesting God and he followed their glorification of God for years, he disbelieved in them, and all miracles of Prophets and their powers and holy books, has not stopped him from disbelieving.

Similarly, sorcerers often very well understand Quran better then most Muslims, and see Mohammad in the Torah and Gospels, but don't believe but rather many of them work tirelessly to prevent people from understanding so to prevent what in they see would be a misguidance to the masses and believe that Mohammad did miracles as did Jesus, but that it's all sorcery and high level of magic.

You assume everyone will believe, but, the warning of Quran, is even when Jesus descends from the sky (the sign from the sky coming down is obviously an allusion to this in my view), and even if the Mahdi raises many dead people and even if miracles like that of Moses' are shown, unless, people are inclined to love the tree of light and God's pure word, it's likely they will reject.

The reason why God doesn't talk to us, is explained in Quran, we would accuse the Angels or Hidden Guides so much so if we were open a portal to the sky/heaven, and ascended, we would be oppressive to ourselves and the guidance, and say "we are a people who are enchanted" (ie. sorcery is done upon us).

Satan heard God speak, but disbelieve in his Lord, and began to sarcastically talk to Ahlulbayt (as) regarding their Lord when he disbelieved.

Adam (as) even questioned his Lord when Iblis swear by God he was truthful, saying, the God you think is God but is really telling you to not approach the tree of life and light and knowledge, so as not to be one of the exalted ones and one of the abiding ones and to not be one of the highest kings. Look towards them to compete and outstrip them, and you will, so despite God warning him not to look towards Ahlulbayt (as) with envy, he did, and although didn't wish them bad, wished to compete and reach their station. This showed lack of gratitude but he wasn't resolved on rebellion like Iblis, and so when he began to fall, realized the true Lord and repented in all that.

This is while when Michael and Gabriel and Angels under him kicked Iblis out, he didn't repent but asked for respite in which he was given, only for him to then pledge to lead astray almost all humans.

You don't know and no one can feel safe, when Iblis was an Angel close to God for thousands of years, till he fell from grace, all in a moment, all in a moment.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
He will do that, he will testify to the Mahdi universally and everyone will hear it in their own language. This will be one of the signs for the Mahdi when he comes.

It happened, it is not an instantaneous occurance, but in this age it was like lightening and within 100 years of the dawn of Faith, it was being shown around the world in all languages that the Messiah had come.

The quandary is that no person has to consider that did happen everyone is free to wait for, what they have decided to wait for.

Regards Tony
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
He will do that, he will testify to the Mahdi universally and everyone will hear it in their own language. This will be one of the signs for the Mahdi when he comes. But you concluding everyone would believe in God is wrong.
Thanks for your answers. I know that if God spoke universally to everyone through a Messenger such as the Mahdi not everyone would believe Him. Everyone has never believed a Messenger when He appeared. For example, in the beginning Jesus had only a handful of disciples and the religion took a long time to grow larger.

When I said “communicate a direct message to everyone in the world that would convince everyone in the world that God exists” I meant that God would communicate to every person in the world individually.

I also said “This assumes communication from God that convinces them it is “really God” speaking.”

Some people believe that God could communicate a direct message to everyone in the world because God is omnipotent. The question I am posing to you is if you think that God would do that, even though God has never done that before?

I am not asking you if God could do that. I am asking you if God would do that. I am guessing you do not think so because you believe that God sent Muhammad and then later God will send the Mahdi, so there would be no reason for God to also communicate directly to individuals.
 
Top