I am not sure if you meant to say Baha’u’llah but no matter, as the Bab and Baha’u’llah were the Twin Manifestations, and both are important. The Bab came to prepare the way for Baha’u’llah, his name means “Gate” in Persian, just as John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus. The difference is that Baha’is believe that the Bab was a Manifestation of God in His own right, whereas John the Baptist was just a man. So the Bab and Baha’u’llah both had a human and a divine nature.
I see. Thanks for setting me straight.
Anyhow, the evidence that indicates that God exists is their Persons, the lives, the missions and the Writings of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. That is not proof but it is evidence, the best evidence that humanity has ever had as far as I am concerned, partly because the history of their lives and missions is verifiable and their scriptures are authentic, since they exist in the original handwriting.
I see. Did they perform any supernatural miracles that can be verified by outside sources? What makes you believe they have a personal understanding of god?
What I think you need to understand is that the religions of the past no longer exist in their original form.They have been changed so much by men that they are in effect religions of man. Baha’u’llah wrote
“Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.” Gleanings, p. 171
I would agree, as everything evolves. With archeology, we can get a pretty good understanding of what they did believe in their original incarnations, though. What archeology reveals is that these religions didn't begin in some pure form -they all shared pagan roots of some kind, and their mythologies were varied depending on where they were originally located, and how their mythologies spread. There's strong evidence that Yahweh, for instance, began as part of the Canaanite pantheon in subbordination to El, the chief god. It seems Yahweh even had a wife in Asherah. Yahweh was regarded in different ways depending on where in the Levant he was revered. A monolithic ideal of Yahweh didn't come about until later when he was adopted as a city state god, similar to Marduk.
Yahweh
Asherah - Wikipedia
Was there ever a pure original form? If so, when was it? The only religions I can think of that had some original, pure beginning were religions like Islam or the Bahai faith. Even Islam contains seemingly mythological roots from it's earliest incarnations, such as the inclusion of the Djinn and the carry over of myths from Christianity and Judaism. As for the Bahaii walk, I should do some research on it's claims so I can get a better understanding. I can't really comment too much on that since I'm just too ignorant on the subject.
I fully agree with that, the spiritual truths of all the religions are timeless, they are eternal, and this is a Baha’i teaching.
That's a good thing.
It would be really difficult to unravel all of this, thus I do not even try to. I live fully in the present, not in the past or the future. I do not see the need to look at the older religions, especially because I believe that time is short, given the present condition of the world.
Really? Unraveling the past is how we find the truth, and get to the heart of a matter. When a boss hires a potential worker, they do a background check. When an investigator solves a crime, they look at the crime scene. Looking at something's validity through their past actions and evidence seems to be a very credible way to predict if something is accurate or not, it seems to me.
God does not gain anything because God does not need anything; humans are the one who gain something. If we had proof that would be too easy because then we would not have to have any faith and we would not have to make any effort to maintain our faith.
But why is it good that humans use faith to get to the core of a matter? Faith is hardly an accurate way to attain truth.
Faith is a good thing, as long as we also have evidence. Isn’t it good to have faith in one’s spouse that they will never let you down?
That's not really belief based on faith, though -that's belief based on evidence. I believe her based on the evidence of her past merits. If her actions proved to be unreliable or harmful, I'd get out of that situation. If I come home, see her in a bed with some other guy, and she says, "This isn't how it looks! Believe me!" Will I take her words on faith and believe her, or will I look at the evidence of the clothing on the ground and their compromising position and come to the conclusion that there was some serious hanky panky going on.
To me, faith seems like something to resort to without good evidence. I can give money to someone living on the street in good faith that they will spend it on good things for themselves instead of feeding a harmful behavior like drugs or alcohol, but that isn't a guarantee. That's a hope, which is what faith is at it's core. That isn't to say hope isn't useful. It is. What it isn't, though, is a good tool for finding truth. If I have evidence to support something, I don't really need faith or hope at all. I can be confident in my decision until better evidence comes along to challenge it.
But of course if there is a track record you can believe that because there is evidence. It is no different with the Manifestations of God, they have a track record. Otherwise it would be completely naïve and foolish to believe in them. Jesus said to beware of false prophets and there are certain dead giveaways that a prophet is false. One of those is that he exalts himself, considering himself equal to God, for example. There are many others, but there are also many indicators of a true prophet.
Eh... But the track record of what is supposed to happen doesn't mesh with the track record of actual history a lot of the time, though. This is why looking at the past is so important, I feel. How do we know Jesus actually existed if there's nothing outside of the Bible to varify he was real? Even if he was real, why take what was said about him in the bible with any sincerity if the books of the bible were written long after his death? What kind of track record is that, and if other religions have track records that are just as flawed, why should one take them all that seriously?
Aside from that, though: what is a true prophet? Why should we take the words of self proclaimed prophets on what true prophets are? Is everyone who claims direct connections with god and speaks truths a prophet? The thing is, everyone who thinks deeply on things can find and speak truths -this doesn't require a god.
One could fill the gaps with faith, but why would that be a good thing to do? It seems faith is used when one doesn't have a good reason to believe why something is true. As I've said before, with evidence one doesn't really need faith, and you could honestly fill the gaps with anything else and it'd have the same effect. Cultural stories, mythologies, urban legends, conspiracy theories, etc. All of these are faith based.
I understand what you are saying and you make a valid point. I am kind of different from most Baha’is because I had no religious background prior to becoming a Baha’i and I never studied history or older religions. Then later I just did not have the time. Yes, the older religions were required as a foundation, since each new religion builds on the religion that came before. That made me think of a book you might like that explains some of this and it is free to read online.
The Heart of the Gospel is a book that was written by a Christian clergyman who resigned his orders after 40 years to become a Baha’i. It explains how the Bible fits into history. The same author also wrote
Christ and Baha'u'llah which is a book that explains the relationship between Christ and Baha’u’llah and how Muhammad fits into the picture:
Oh! Thanks for those.
Yes, I absolutely agree with that and the reason it happened that way was because of the misinterpretation of scripture. That is a big subject we can discuss later if you want.
Again, I am at a loss because I do not know the Bible like you apparently do, so I do not know what those prophets commanded. Can you give me some examples?
Sure! A small example, the Midian War:
Midian war - Wikipedia
[Num 31:1-2, 25-30 NIV] 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people." ... 25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part. 30 From the Israelites' half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle."
More verses describe taking virgins as sex slaves for the fighting men, and taking people as slaves for tributes to the lord -all done by Moses as commanded by god.
As for the conquest of Canaan, and other lands:
[Deu 20:13-18 NLT] 13 When the LORD your God hands the town over to you, use your swords to kill every man in the town. 14 But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the plunder from your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. 15 "But these instructions apply only to distant towns, not to the towns of the nations in the land you will enter. 16 In those towns that the LORD your God is giving you as a special possession, destroy every living thing. 17 You must completely destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 This will prevent the people of the land from teaching you to imitate their detestable customs in the worship of their gods, which would cause you to sin deeply against the LORD your God.
Also, Jericho and the prophet Joshua:
Battle of Jericho - Wikipedia
I agree now that you have explained why you think this way and that is why I recommended you read those books above, which are pretty short. They will at least help you understand the Baha’i perspective and how the past religions fit into the whole picture.
Will do!
The Bab and Baha’u’llah are not responsible for what happened in and to the older religions. They both brought new revelations from God. The problem is that most people cannot look at the new without carrying around all the old baggage. I was fortunate because I did not have any, and that is probably the main reason I was almost immediately able to recognize that Baha’i Faith was the truth from God; no confirmation bias.
Good point.