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Would a Universal Guaranteed Basic Income Reduce Class Warfare?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Jeebers, I hate explaining these things. First, I suck at it. Second, a few seconds on Google gets folks a better explanation than I could ever come up with. Still, here goes...

A Universal Guaranteed Basic Income would work pretty much along these lines: Suppose the Federal Government decided to start making monthly payments to every person in the United States 18 or older with no strings attached and the Feds kept it up for the life of the individual. To be sure, the checks would go out to everyone regardless of the usual suspect categories. e.g. sex, race, religion, ethnic group, politics, and so forth.

Next, people getting the checks would have the option of working if they wanted to, and could find a job. The checks would be for 'get-by' sums. Enough to cover living expenses and maybe a little bit more for a movie, game, or book now and then. Say, $2000 per month in the U.S. these days.

Essentially, that's the idea of a Universal Guaranteed Basic Income. Naturally, the details could vary.

The idea has been around for years, but recently gained a boost in recognition when Andrew Yang made it the core of his policy platform in the 2019 primaries. It has been endorsed by a whole lot of people, such as Bill Gates, but who for the most part are not politicians, nor billionaires.

The usual reason economists, futurists, political scientists, policy wonks, and even Gates get behind it is because it is hoped that a Universal Guaranteed Basic Income will prevent Gotterdammerung. I doubt most people are plugged in to the news about our approaching Gotterdammerung, so I'll explain.

It's largely the consensus view these days that sometime within the next few decades robots and artificial intelligences will leave tens of millions of people without a job in the U.S. alone. Billions of people around the world. No one really thinks that is unlikely to happen. I guess robots and AI are pretty certain to be our future now. Here, there, everywhere in the end.

Billions of out of work people present a problem, naturally. People like to eat, they like clothing, they like to have a roof over their heads, and other things too, such as health care. From a political standpoint, the worst part of that is, people notice when they do not have those things, and cannot have those things. Such will become the reality in, say, 30 years at the most, but most likely sooner.

Gotterdammerung is a word borrowed from Norse/German mythology, and nowadays is sometimes used to mean a violent and catastrophic collapse of civilization. It originates in mythology, but if you listen to people who have spent some time looking into these things, it's a genuine down the road threat to sooner or later every nation on the planet. Again, if a third or more of your working age adults are starving, you have a problem.

There have already been experiments with UBGI. Whole towns in places like Canada, the Netherlands, and elsewhere have been placed on it for periods of up to five years to see what happens.

One big concern that is now laid to rest. Most people do not become lazy, as just about everyone feared at first. Some do. But somewhere around 90% or more of them use their new found time available to them to do anything they want to do by seeking out one of the few remaining jobs, going back to school to learn more, taking up a serious hobby, volunteering at a nonprofit organization, etc. Its shocking, but it seems most people like to work. Especially if they get to pick what kind of work they do.

How would they be paid for? Best idea I've heard is what Gates came up. Tax the robots. That is, send a tax bill to the owners of robots, taxing them on a per robot basis.

So? What do you make of it all?



 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/him/they/them
Say, $2000 per month in the U.S. these days.
Thats more than my disability. I get about $700 a month. Can't even pay rent here( I am in a group home) I had to apply for social benifits to not only pay rent but also get $60 back. Luckily the staff here pays for food and transportation otherwise I'd be screwed.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
Jeebers, I hate explaining these things. First, I suck at it. Second, a few seconds on Google gets folks a better explanation than I could ever come up with. Still, here goes...

A Universal Guaranteed Basic Income would work pretty much along these lines: Suppose the Federal Government decided to start making monthly payments to every person in the United States 18 or older with no strings attached and the Feds kept it up for the life of the individual. To be sure, the checks would go out to everyone regardless of the usual suspect categories. e.g. sex, race, religion, ethnic group, politics, and so forth.

Next, people getting the checks would have the option of working if they wanted to, and could find a job. The checks would be for 'get-by' sums. Enough to cover living expenses and maybe a little bit more for a movie, game, or book now and then. Say, $2000 per month in the U.S. these days.

Essentially, that's the idea of a Universal Guaranteed Basic Income. Naturally, the details could vary.

The idea has been around for years, but recently gained a boost in recognition when Andrew Yang made it the core of his policy platform in the 2019 primaries. It has been endorsed by a whole lot of people, such as Bill Gates, but who for the most part are not politicians, nor billionaires.

The usual reason economists, futurists, political scientists, policy wonks, and even Gates get behind it is because it is hoped that a Universal Guaranteed Basic Income will prevent Gotterdammerung. I doubt most people are plugged in to the news about our approaching Gotterdammerung, so I'll explain.

It's largely the consensus view these days that sometime within the next few decades robots and artificial intelligences will leave tens of millions of people without a job in the U.S. alone. Billions of people around the world. No one really thinks that is unlikely to happen. I guess robots and AI are pretty certain to be our future now. Here, there, everywhere in the end.

Billions of out of work people present a problem, naturally. People like to eat, they like clothing, they like to have a roof over their heads, and other things too, such as health care. From a political standpoint, the worst part of that is, people notice when they do not have those things, and cannot have those things. Such will become the reality in, say, 30 years at the most, but most likely sooner.

Gotterdammerung is a word borrowed from Norse/German mythology, and nowadays is sometimes used to mean a violent and catastrophic collapse of civilization. It originates in mythology, but if you listen to people who have spent some time looking into these things, it's a genuine down the road threat to sooner or later every nation on the planet. Again, if a third or more of your working age adults are starving, you have a problem.

There have already been experiments with UBGI. Whole towns in places like Canada, the Netherlands, and elsewhere have been placed on it for periods of up to five years to see what happens.

One big concern that is now laid to rest. Most people do not become lazy, as just about everyone feared at first. Some do. But somewhere around 90% or more of them use their new found time available to them to do anything they want to do by seeking out one of the few remaining jobs, going back to school to learn more, taking up a serious hobby, volunteering at a nonprofit organization, etc. Its shocking, but it seems most people like to work. Especially if they get to pick what kind of work they do.

How would they be paid for? Best idea I've heard is what Gates came up. Tax the robots. That is, send a tax bill to the owners of robots, taxing them on a per robot basis.

So? What do you make of it all?



Are you serious? This idea would be guaranteed to split the country and invite another Trump.

Middle America would be up in arms at the idea of being taxed to pay "undeserving" people (many of them, no doubt, even black! :eek:) a salary for doing damn-all.

Even if it were to make economic sense, which is a matter of considerable dispute, there is just no way society as currently constituted would be ready for such an idea. So politically it would be a non-starter.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Are you serious? This idea would be guaranteed to split the country and invite another Trump.

Middle America would be up in arms at the idea of being taxed to pay "undeserving" people (many of them, no doubt, even black! :eek:) a salary for doing damn-all.

Even if it were to make economic sense, which is a matter of considerable dispute, there is just no way society as currently constituted would be ready for such an idea. So politically it would be a non-starter.

Ok. I won't bother asking what crystal ball you're using to predict all of those things happening. Just if not by means of a UGBI, how would you solve the problem that's coming down the road?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Only if that base income is set at a reasonable level. I suspect that if we were to enact such a system, our greed and antipathy toward our fellow humans would drive us to set the level at the edge of abject poverty. Which would continue to trap people in a hopeless position, economically. And it's living without hope that drives people to resent others, and to anger, and eventually to violent action toward those others.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I will just say this: the quantity of circulating money in the US is not proportioned to the GDP the US produce per year. Also considering the quantity of unused resources the American continent has.
In other words, more than the 60% of the American GDP ends up in very few hands.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
It's largely the consensus view these days that sometime within the next few decades robots and artificial intelligences will leave tens of millions of people without a job in the U.S. alone. Billions of people around the world. No one really thinks that is unlikely to happen. I guess robots and AI are pretty certain to be our future now. Here, there, everywhere in the end.

Billions of out of work people present a problem, naturally. People like to eat, they like clothing, they like to have a roof over their heads, and other things too, such as health care. From a political standpoint, the worst part of that is, people notice when they do not have those things, and cannot have those things. Such will become the reality in, say, 30 years at the most, but most likely sooner.

This is genuinely worrying to me. Aside from what you've outlined here, the fact that robots doing most of the work would lead to mass poverty reveals just how warped our perception is.

This is the stuff of Sci-Fi Utopian fiction. Robots take care of the necessities of life, leaving humans free to pursue artistic, intellectual and philosophical endeavours along with having ample time for leisure. This should be cause for excitement but the incalculable greed of a tiny minority coupled with the resigned, "this is just how things have to be" attitude of the majority give the whole concept an air of impending doom.

If providing a basic standard of living for people is just too monumental a task in a world of automation, what hope do we have? Universal income isn't just a noble aim, it presents a vital step in rethinking how our society operates. Gotterdammerung is as much about mindset as it is about how we distribute resources and changing peoples' mindset presents the real challenge in my opinion.

If asked, "What's the primary purpose of a business?" the majority of people in my experience answer, "To make a profit." Until we're able to have the majority of people answer, "To provide goods and services" then I don't see much chance of avoiding Gotterdammerung.


Sorry if this all sounds a bit hysterical but I feel that we can't talk about universal income without also talking about societal attitudes. As you said in your post, it has been demonstrated to be effective but there's still strong resistance to it. I would argue this resistance is less about practicality and more about our skewed perception.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
How would they be paid for? Best idea I've heard is what Gates came up. Tax the robots. That is, send a tax bill to the owners of robots, taxing them on a per robot basis.
Expropriating wealth from those who control the means of production and redistributing that wealth in an equitable way strikes me as an outstanding, cutting edge idea. I just can't seem to shake the feeling that I've encountered it back in my youth.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I've liked the idea for a very long time. With a basic income, people have far less stress. They get to choose what they want to do, and as Sunstone pointed out, most people aren't lazy. We already do it for the elderly, and many people over 65 choose to continue working anyway. We coule put in in gradually, reducing the OAS a year at a time.

Here's Finland's trial story ... Does Finland show the way to universal basic income? | DW | 30.05.2020
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Since I heard your wonderful Chinese song yesterday, I started with the new one. Chinese again, and I loved it. With subtitles, and great lyrics, even learned some spiritual lesson. So thanks again

Then I looked at the OP. Great also. And this is a hot issue going on now in the world. And you summarized it very well, made it easy for me. So, thanks for the detailed, totally not boring, well written explanation

Jeebers, I hate explaining these things
But I love it that you did it

First, I suck at it.
You are free to have your opinion, but I disagree with you on this. But please don't debate me on this.

Second, a few seconds on Google gets folks a better explanation than I could ever come up with.
Much more than a few seconds

Still, here goes...
Great ... first I need to eat, then I return to answer the rest
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Ok. I won't bother asking what crystal ball you're using to predict all of those things happening. Just if not by means of a UGBI, how would you solve the problem that's coming down the road?
All I need to do is read the newspapers to see how divisive such an idea would be - which is what you asked.

I suppose in the event that unemployment rises inexorably over many years, then it is possible the deeply ingrained US sentiment that everyone should stand on their own two feet, and that anyone out of a job should go out and find one, might gradually change. But people have predicted that machines would cause mass unemployment many times before in history: the Luddites, the rise of domestic appliances, the word processor........ Society seems to absorb these changes, adapts and finds work for people to do.

So I think trying to address it now is crossing your bridges before you come to them. And trying to get such an idea into politics now would be mad - playing right into the hands of the Trumps of this world.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Expropriating wealth from those who control the means of production and redistributing that wealth in an equitable way strikes me as an outstanding, cutting edge idea. I just can't seem to shake the feeling that I've encountered it back in my youth.
It's called Corporation Tax in the UK. ;)
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Are you serious? This idea would be guaranteed to split the country and invite another Trump.

Middle America would be up in arms at the idea of being taxed to pay "undeserving" people (many of them, no doubt, even black! :eek:) a salary for doing damn-all.

Even if it were to make economic sense, which is a matter of considerable dispute, there is just no way society as currently constituted would be ready for such an idea. So politically it would be a non-starter.

Middle America would get the money also.
The people could not be taxed for paying this. That would be someone paying to get the same money back. Big businesses would have to pay. The ones who would be depriving people of work because of the robots.
It is good for businesses and the economy however because they need to sell things and to pay tax.
It is good for the poor who would be getting more than they do now.
True it could cause a backlash in America where the work ethic is too high for the good of anyone.
My question would be who is going to stop the cost of everything going up to pay for it all?
If it is explained well to everyone and people start losing jobs because of technological advances, it might be enough to sway people. Esp if they see they can work also or have time to do other things.
I think people could be persuaded in other countries more so than in the US.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Class warfare will never go away. Too much political
hay is to be made from using it. But many of us loony
libertarians have been long advocating the UBI as a
better way to provide for those in need than the myriad
of dysfunctional programs now in effect. The UBI
would give them greater economic liberty and security,
yet still encourage gainful employment.
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
A Universal Guaranteed Basic Income would work pretty much along these lines: Suppose the Federal Government decided to start making monthly payments to every person in the United States 18 or older with no strings attached and the Feds kept it up for the life of the individual. To be sure, the checks would go out to everyone regardless of the usual suspect categories. e.g. sex, race, religion, ethnic group, politics, and so forth.

Next, people getting the checks would have the option of working if they wanted to, and could find a job. The checks would be for 'get-by' sums. Enough to cover living expenses and maybe a little bit more for a movie, game, or book now and then. Say, $2000 per month in the U.S. these days.

Essentially, that's the idea of a Universal Guaranteed Basic Income. Naturally, the details could vary.
There have already been experiments with UBGI. Whole towns in places like Canada, the Netherlands, and elsewhere have been placed on it for periods of up to five years to see what happens.
I like the UGBI idea. $2000 seems generous compared to Holland, but if rent is high without reduction then it comes close to what we have in Holland. In Holland they give ca. $1000. When rent is higher than $250 they give reduction till a certain max. amount, and health care they also give reduction. Yearly all pay the first $400 healthcare themselves. That's about how it is in Holland. Oh, and low income also need not pay yearly $400 taxes for getting their containers emptied. This seem to work quite well
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Gotterdammerung is a word borrowed from Norse/German mythology, and is sometimes used to mean a violent and catastrophic collapse of civilization. It originates in mythology, but if you listen to people who have spent some time looking into these things, it's a genuine down the road threat to sooner or later every nation on the planet. Again, if a third or more of your working age adults are starving, you have a problem.
IMO:

IF robots do all the work, 30% working age starving won't be a problem. So, till then they better keep the status quo, and don't change to drastically at once. Every year a few baby steps to avoid civil wars. We have now seen how quick troubles can arise, when things are uncertain and fear is preached worldwide.

But even better to find the solution that this won't happen. Mythology was long ago. We have evolved and we have good communication, so now we have more options to make this work.

Best option, is to brainwash children in kindergarten to behave civil later. In the moment students (young kids) already get brainwashed with computer games from young age. Should be easy to introduce a few hours weekly in brainwashing them with good values in life, and preparing them that probably they get no job, as robots will do most of the work.

Educate them in meditation and all the good stuff religions offer; Love instead of hate. At the same time, clean out the bad stuff religions offer. AND clean out the bad stuff that has been offered to kids the past 20 years, the violent games. They create violence in people. Also Hollywood needs a do over, more positive movies, and less violent ones. Kids might complain at first, but humans adapt quick. Within a few days/weeks they love Love-movies, because Love is our nature.
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Class warfare will never go away. Too much political
hay is to be made from using it.
Right. Far from reflecting a fundamental inequity and desperation, class warfare is, first and foremost, a cynical, disingenuous tactic (no doubt employed by some very fine people on both sides).
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Right. Far from reflecting a fundamental inequity and desperation, class warfare is, first and foremost, a cynical, disingenuous tactic (no doubt employed by some very fine people on both sides).
Well that was clear as mud.
It was so clever that I can't discern if you're
agreeing or sneering at me...or both.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
One big concern that is now laid to rest. Most people do not become lazy, as just about everyone feared at first. Some do. But somewhere around 90% or more of them use their new found time available to them to do anything they want to do by seeking out one of the few remaining jobs, going back to school to learn more, taking up a serious hobby, volunteering at a nonprofit organization, etc. Its shocking, but it seems most people like to work. Especially if they get to pick what kind of work they do.
IMO:

Or put it more accurately "most people never learned to sit still, and face all the emotions that pop up in silence". And this indeed can cause problems. But if they find a good solution for this, then they can train the new generation, and in ca.15 years big changes can be seen. The key is the youth. Train them well, so that we don't get new trouble makers

How would they be paid for? Best idea I've heard is what Gates came up. Tax the robots. That is, send a tax bill to the owners of robots, taxing them on a per robot basis.
That seems a good/fair plan to me

So? What do you make of it all?
A big challenge we face. Also an interesting time I would say.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Jeebers, I hate explaining these things. First, I suck at it. Second, a few seconds on Google gets folks a better explanation than I could ever come up with. Still, here goes...

A Universal Guaranteed Basic Income would work pretty much along these lines: Suppose the Federal Government decided to start making monthly payments to every person in the United States 18 or older with no strings attached and the Feds kept it up for the life of the individual. To be sure, the checks would go out to everyone regardless of the usual suspect categories. e.g. sex, race, religion, ethnic group, politics, and so forth.

Next, people getting the checks would have the option of working if they wanted to, and could find a job. The checks would be for 'get-by' sums. Enough to cover living expenses and maybe a little bit more for a movie, game, or book now and then. Say, $2000 per month in the U.S. these days.

Essentially, that's the idea of a Universal Guaranteed Basic Income. Naturally, the details could vary.

The idea has been around for years, but recently gained a boost in recognition when Andrew Yang made it the core of his policy platform in the 2019 primaries. It has been endorsed by a whole lot of people, such as Bill Gates, but who for the most part are not politicians, nor billionaires.

The usual reason economists, futurists, political scientists, policy wonks, and even Gates get behind it is because it is hoped that a Universal Guaranteed Basic Income will prevent Gotterdammerung. I doubt most people are plugged in to the news about our approaching Gotterdammerung, so I'll explain.

It's largely the consensus view these days that sometime within the next few decades robots and artificial intelligences will leave tens of millions of people without a job in the U.S. alone. Billions of people around the world. No one really thinks that is unlikely to happen. I guess robots and AI are pretty certain to be our future now. Here, there, everywhere in the end.

Billions of out of work people present a problem, naturally. People like to eat, they like clothing, they like to have a roof over their heads, and other things too, such as health care. From a political standpoint, the worst part of that is, people notice when they do not have those things, and cannot have those things. Such will become the reality in, say, 30 years at the most, but most likely sooner.

Gotterdammerung is a word borrowed from Norse/German mythology, and nowadays is sometimes used to mean a violent and catastrophic collapse of civilization. It originates in mythology, but if you listen to people who have spent some time looking into these things, it's a genuine down the road threat to sooner or later every nation on the planet. Again, if a third or more of your working age adults are starving, you have a problem.

There have already been experiments with UBGI. Whole towns in places like Canada, the Netherlands, and elsewhere have been placed on it for periods of up to five years to see what happens.

One big concern that is now laid to rest. Most people do not become lazy, as just about everyone feared at first. Some do. But somewhere around 90% or more of them use their new found time available to them to do anything they want to do by seeking out one of the few remaining jobs, going back to school to learn more, taking up a serious hobby, volunteering at a nonprofit organization, etc. Its shocking, but it seems most people like to work. Especially if they get to pick what kind of work they do.

How would they be paid for? Best idea I've heard is what Gates came up. Tax the robots. That is, send a tax bill to the owners of robots, taxing them on a per robot basis.

So? What do you make of it all?




I agree with you fully on this and you highlight a point that I was thinking about. With the rise of AI, for a human to be able to survive in the current wage slavery and economic system would be unsustainable. I think that only the arts would not suffer because they are jobs of self expression.

What people, such as conservatives, tend to forget is that the economy exists for people, people do not exist for the economy, and the economic is an artificial abstract system that humans have created which should be ditched the moment it fails to serve the needs of humanity. I would say that it is already a failure, since there are so many people who cannot survive, even if they are subject to wage slavery. It seems that some people care more about an abstract concept as if that is the moral thing to do than for the livelihood of people.

Universal Guaranteed Basic Income is the inevitable conclusion, IMO, when this system fails, and once everybody's needs are met, they will embark on what they are truly passionate about. But this will only be the case if we construct an education system that is designed to bring peoples passion out, and not designed, as it is now, to train use to become wage slaves. Also, this shouldn't limit people from earning more income, as people should be rewarded for their efforts.

One of my only concerns is that those who strive to be at the top will find some way of gaining power over others. Possibly they will increase the cost of living, so that the basic income that people receive won't be enough for them to survive.
 
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