worshipping is not grovelling

[Eddi]

I’m writing this from a Christian perspective but have not put it in the Christian DIR as I’d like to hear what people from other traditions think about the distinction between worshipping God and grovelling to him...

Claim: I don’t believe worshipping God involves belittling ourselves to him, which is what many people think.

Allow me to unpack that claim:

When I was an atheist I used to think “Worship” was all about groveling and sucking up to God, and belittling oneself. I saw this as a kind of anti-human tyranny of organised religion.

I then learnt that the word “worship” is from “Weorthscipe” – Old English for an “acknowledgment of worth” – which has nothing to do with groveling!

Here are some bible verses on submitting to God, which I think we should do as he is good and wise rather than because he is big and powerful:

What Does the Bible Say About Submission?

Here are some about praising him for all he's done for humankind (e.g. creating us, making covenants, sending Jesus):

What Does the Bible Say About Worship?

And here are some about obeying him:

What Does the Bible Say About Obedience?

Nowhere in my bible does it say worship needs to involve groveling and belittling oneself before him like Moslems do 5 times a day in which they literally bow down before him: Obviously, such practices are not biblical…

In my opinion: Praise, worship and submission, yes. But sycophancy, no: God is great and God is good – but we are not insignificant, and we are not (generally) wicked or depraved. He loves us and didn’t create us for us to bow down to him all the time. Imagine if a human father demanded that of his children! Social services would be involved...

I do not believe he requires us to self-deprecate, but that he wants a relationship with us in which we honour him as our creator and in which he loves us as his creation:

I believe worship, praise, and obedience to be human responses to God’s love and that no being who truly loved us would want us to grovel. I believe he wants us to say “You are worthy, Lord!” – not “We’re not worthy, Lord!”.

I don’t think worshipping the Supreme Being needs to involve people minimalizing their own worth as his created beings. But in our society, this is often how people think about worship. I certainly used to see things that way. I now believe I misunderstood.

What do people think about all this?

 

[leov]

I’m writing this from a Christian perspective but have not put it in the Christian DIR as I’d like to hear what people from other traditions think about the distinction between worshipping God and grovelling to him...

Claim: I don’t believe worshipping God involves belittling ourselves to him, which is what many people think.

Allow me to unpack that claim:

When I was an atheist I used to think “Worship” was all about groveling and sucking up to God, and belittling oneself. I saw this as a kind of anti-human tyranny of organised religion.

I then learnt that the word “worship” is from “Weorthscipe” – Old English for an “acknowledgment of worth” – which has nothing to do with groveling!

Here are some bible verses on submitting to God, which I think we should do as he is good and wise rather than because he is big and powerful:

What Does the Bible Say About Submission?

Here are some about praising him for all he's done for humankind (e.g. creating us, making covenants, sending Jesus):

What Does the Bible Say About Worship?

And here are some about obeying him:

What Does the Bible Say About Obedience?

Nowhere in my bible does it say worship needs to involve groveling and belittling oneself before him like Moslems do 5 times a day in which they literally bow down before him: Obviously, such practices are not biblical…

In my opinion: Praise, worship and submission, yes. But sycophancy, no: God is great and God is good – but we are not insignificant, and we are not (generally) wicked or depraved. He loves us and didn’t create us for us to bow down to him all the time. Imagine if a human father demanded that of his children! Social services would be involved...

I do not believe he requires us to self-deprecate, but that he wants a relationship with us in which we honour him as our creator and in which he loves us as his creation:

I believe worship, praise, and obedience to be human responses to God’s love and that no being who truly loved us would want us to grovel. I believe he wants us to say “You are worthy, Lord!” – not “We’re not worthy, Lord!”.

I don’t think worshipping the Supreme Being needs to involve people minimalizing their own worth as his created beings. But in our society, this is often how people think about worship. I certainly used to see things that way. I now believe I misunderstood.

What do people think about all this?

Jesus became Christ and glorified God, Jesus said that his followers can glorify Christ if they follow commandments of Christ. so, human can become Godlike.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Nowhere in my bible does it say worship needs to involve groveling and belittling oneself before him like Moslems do 5 times a day in which they literally bow down before him: Obviously, such practices are not biblical…

What? There's lots of verses about people "falling down on their face" before some holy figure in the Bible. Bending the knee before God is a Christian practice, too.

 

[sun rise]

Claim: I don’t believe worshipping God involves belittling ourselves to him, which is what many people think.

What? There's lots of verses about people "falling down on their face" before some holy figure in the Bible. Bending the knee before God is a Christian practice, too.

Suppose we were to meet a figure who struck us as a perfect father and a perfect mother in one being. Suppose that figure clearly loved us more than we could ever love ourselves. Suppose that figure struck us as having more wisdom than any other. How would we naturally react?

I would not call that 'belittling ourselves' but the spontaneous recognition of the nature of the figure in front of us.

And we could only recognize that when the same essence in ourselves was enough alive so that "like called to like".

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Although etymology is a poor guide to meaning, it's interesting to note that in this case "worship" comes from "worth" + "-ship" — to worship is to acknowledge worth.
To worship is to show respect to a superior or gratitude for benefits received; to do that is part of justice. Thomas Aquinas wrote "Again, honour is due to someone under the aspect of excellence … in human affairs we see that different honour is due to different personal excellences, one kind of honour to a father, another to the king, and so on."

We Hellenes usually worship standing, so there's no groveling here!

 

[`mud]

Everywhere on Earth people worship deities and representities of themselves.
These `idols` have hands to hold hammers and feet to run with,
and swords and trumpets and angels of such ferocity, and the winds of hell !
Everyone has one's own `idols`, the lord of their own imaginations.
One cannot take their aquired gnostics with them, can one ?
Ahhhh...cognizence, what would be left, without it ?

 

[epronovost]

Can you criticise your God? Can you accuse your God of wrongdoing when he commits them? Does your God requires worship and praise? If you cannot do the two former and he requires the later, then you are grovelling. My father and mother made me, protected me and raised me. They require no praise from me and I can criticise them when I want. Does your God demand more defference than your own father or mother. If so, he asks you to grovel before him.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I’m writing this from a Christian perspective but have not put it in the Christian DIR as I’d like to hear what people from other traditions think about the distinction between worshipping God and grovelling to him...

Claim: I don’t believe worshipping God involves belittling ourselves to him, which is what many people think.

Allow me to unpack that claim:

When I was an atheist I used to think “Worship” was all about groveling and sucking up to God, and belittling oneself. I saw this as a kind of anti-human tyranny of organised religion.

I then learnt that the word “worship” is from “Weorthscipe” – Old English for an “acknowledgment of worth” – which has nothing to do with groveling!

Here are some bible verses on submitting to God, which I think we should do as he is good and wise rather than because he is big and powerful:

What Does the Bible Say About Submission?

Here are some about praising him for all he's done for humankind (e.g. creating us, making covenants, sending Jesus):

What Does the Bible Say About Worship?

And here are some about obeying him:

What Does the Bible Say About Obedience?

Nowhere in my bible does it say worship needs to involve groveling and belittling oneself before him like Moslems do 5 times a day in which they literally bow down before him: Obviously, such practices are not biblical…

In my opinion: Praise, worship and submission, yes. But sycophancy, no: God is great and God is good – but we are not insignificant, and we are not (generally) wicked or depraved. He loves us and didn’t create us for us to bow down to him all the time. Imagine if a human father demanded that of his children! Social services would be involved...

I do not believe he requires us to self-deprecate, but that he wants a relationship with us in which we honour him as our creator and in which he loves us as his creation:

I believe worship, praise, and obedience to be human responses to God’s love and that no being who truly loved us would want us to grovel. I believe he wants us to say “You are worthy, Lord!” – not “We’re not worthy, Lord!”.

I don’t think worshipping the Supreme Being needs to involve people minimalizing their own worth as his created beings. But in our society, this is often how people think about worship. I certainly used to see things that way. I now believe I misunderstood.

What do people think about all this?

Considering all the carrots on a stick religions put out, not to mention punitive theology, it'd be pretty hard to see how it's not grovelling.

 

[Revoltingest]

I’m writing this from a Christian perspective but have not put it in the Christian DIR as I’d like to hear what people from other traditions think about the distinction between worshipping God and grovelling to him...

Claim: I don’t believe worshipping God involves belittling ourselves to him, which is what many people think.

Allow me to unpack that claim:

When I was an atheist I used to think “Worship” was all about groveling and sucking up to God, and belittling oneself. I saw this as a kind of anti-human tyranny of organised religion.

I then learnt that the word “worship” is from “Weorthscipe” – Old English for an “acknowledgment of worth” – which has nothing to do with groveling!

Here are some bible verses on submitting to God, which I think we should do as he is good and wise rather than because he is big and powerful:

What Does the Bible Say About Submission?

Here are some about praising him for all he's done for humankind (e.g. creating us, making covenants, sending Jesus):

What Does the Bible Say About Worship?

And here are some about obeying him:

What Does the Bible Say About Obedience?

Nowhere in my bible does it say worship needs to involve groveling and belittling oneself before him like Moslems do 5 times a day in which they literally bow down before him: Obviously, such practices are not biblical…

In my opinion: Praise, worship and submission, yes. But sycophancy, no: God is great and God is good – but we are not insignificant, and we are not (generally) wicked or depraved. He loves us and didn’t create us for us to bow down to him all the time. Imagine if a human father demanded that of his children! Social services would be involved...

I do not believe he requires us to self-deprecate, but that he wants a relationship with us in which we honour him as our creator and in which he loves us as his creation:

I believe worship, praise, and obedience to be human responses to God’s love and that no being who truly loved us would want us to grovel. I believe he wants us to say “You are worthy, Lord!” – not “We’re not worthy, Lord!”.

I don’t think worshipping the Supreme Being needs to involve people minimalizing their own worth as his created beings. But in our society, this is often how people think about worship. I certainly used to see things that way. I now believe I misunderstood.

What do people think about all this?

It never occurred to me that worshiping was "groveling".
I suppose that it could be for some people at some time,
but I wouldn't assume that.

 

[halbhh]

I’m writing this from a Christian perspective but have not put it in the Christian DIR as I’d like to hear what people from other traditions think about the distinction between worshipping God and grovelling to him...

Claim: I don’t believe worshipping God involves belittling ourselves to him, which is what many people think.

Allow me to unpack that claim:

When I was an atheist I used to think “Worship” was all about groveling and sucking up to God, and belittling oneself. I saw this as a kind of anti-human tyranny of organised religion.

I then learnt that the word “worship” is from “Weorthscipe” – Old English for an “acknowledgment of worth” – which has nothing to do with groveling!

Here are some bible verses on submitting to God, which I think we should do as he is good and wise rather than because he is big and powerful:

What Does the Bible Say About Submission?

Here are some about praising him for all he's done for humankind (e.g. creating us, making covenants, sending Jesus):

What Does the Bible Say About Worship?

And here are some about obeying him:

What Does the Bible Say About Obedience?

Nowhere in my bible does it say worship needs to involve groveling and belittling oneself before him like Moslems do 5 times a day in which they literally bow down before him: Obviously, such practices are not biblical…

In my opinion: Praise, worship and submission, yes. But sycophancy, no: God is great and God is good – but we are not insignificant, and we are not (generally) wicked or depraved. He loves us and didn’t create us for us to bow down to him all the time. Imagine if a human father demanded that of his children! Social services would be involved...

I do not believe he requires us to self-deprecate, but that he wants a relationship with us in which we honour him as our creator and in which he loves us as his creation:

I believe worship, praise, and obedience to be human responses to God’s love and that no being who truly loved us would want us to grovel. I believe he wants us to say “You are worthy, Lord!” – not “We’re not worthy, Lord!”.

I don’t think worshipping the Supreme Being needs to involve people minimalizing their own worth as his created beings. But in our society, this is often how people think about worship. I certainly used to see things that way. I now believe I misunderstood.

What do people think about all this?

Very useful post. It's essentially correct, though there are more aspects (of course!). When Christ returns the sheer.......magnificence(?) or some aspect of His glory will be so strong that "every knee will bow" which I take to be likely to be an involuntary natural reaction (just like when we see something truly surprising in some intense way we might gasp or our mouth might open in surprise). There is a lot more. When God spoke during the transfiguration, the disciples literally fell on their faces in terror. This was clearly an involuntary natural reaction. So, it's not that we ever should intentionally grovel -- very good point you make there!

Neither is groveling wanted from us! (rather, true adoration and love is more appropriate) Several times in scripture those bowing down are told, directly and immediately, to rise to their feet.

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

I’m writing this from a Christian perspective but have not put it in the Christian DIR as I’d like to hear what people from other traditions think about the distinction between worshipping God and grovelling to him...

Claim: I don’t believe worshipping God involves belittling ourselves to him, which is what many people think.

Allow me to unpack that claim:

When I was an atheist I used to think “Worship” was all about groveling and sucking up to God, and belittling oneself. I saw this as a kind of anti-human tyranny of organised religion.

I then learnt that the word “worship” is from “Weorthscipe” – Old English for an “acknowledgment of worth” – which has nothing to do with groveling!

Here are some bible verses on submitting to God, which I think we should do as he is good and wise rather than because he is big and powerful:

What Does the Bible Say About Submission?

Here are some about praising him for all he's done for humankind (e.g. creating us, making covenants, sending Jesus):

What Does the Bible Say About Worship?

And here are some about obeying him:

What Does the Bible Say About Obedience?

Nowhere in my bible does it say worship needs to involve groveling and belittling oneself before him like Moslems do 5 times a day in which they literally bow down before him: Obviously, such practices are not biblical…

In my opinion: Praise, worship and submission, yes. But sycophancy, no: God is great and God is good – but we are not insignificant, and we are not (generally) wicked or depraved. He loves us and didn’t create us for us to bow down to him all the time. Imagine if a human father demanded that of his children! Social services would be involved...

I do not believe he requires us to self-deprecate, but that he wants a relationship with us in which we honour him as our creator and in which he loves us as his creation:

I believe worship, praise, and obedience to be human responses to God’s love and that no being who truly loved us would want us to grovel. I believe he wants us to say “You are worthy, Lord!” – not “We’re not worthy, Lord!”.

I don’t think worshipping the Supreme Being needs to involve people minimalizing their own worth as his created beings. But in our society, this is often how people think about worship. I certainly used to see things that way. I now believe I misunderstood.

What do people think about all this?

The Father NEVER asked any for "worship"...….

That's something the God of the OT DEMANDS...….or DIE.

 

[Quintessence]

Excellent thread!

It is interesting to observe different people's ideas about what worship entails. The practice looks very different across cultures/religions as well as individuals within these traditions. Most of us are only familiar with a fraction of that diversity, even though we live in a relatively multicultural society.

I too have heard the dissent voiced that worship is somehow self-depreciating. While there is something to this, there are some assumptions that go into that line of thinking that are worth unpacking. To look at that on a more general level than the OP, it seems like there are a couple elements to think about:

• Say we grant worship is indeed self-depreciating. Those who object to worship because it is self-depreciating clearly must view self-depreciation as a bad thing. However, is this necessarily the case?
• If we do not grant worship is self-depreciating, those who object to worship because they perceive it that way are misunderstanding what worship is. What is the intention of worship?

Let's look a bit more at the line of thinking that grants worship is self-depreciating. There are few common elements among the world's conceptions of gods but among them is the notion that the gods are in some way greater than we are. With that comes an acknowledgement that human power and ability is limited. While this can be framed as self-depreciating as some do, it can also be framed as humility. I can see how those who are excessively prideful or arrogant would disdain the notion of acknowledging powers greater than themselves, as well as how excessive humility or deference towards such powers could spiral into poor self-worth or other issues.

If we do not grant that worship is self-depreciating, we can think about what other purposes it serves. There are many answers to that question, but for me it is really just about giving thanks or showing appreciation. This is fundamental to managing relationships on a general level, whether it is with gods or with other humans. If you value someone, you demonstrate that through your behavior. That's what worship is. And while we could say it is self-depreciating to "waste" our money buying someone a birthday present, that's a pretty cynical way of looking at it.

 

[Jainarayan]

Can you criticise your God? Can you accuse your God of wrongdoing when he commits them? Does your God requires worship and praise?

Yes.
Yes.
No.

 

[epronovost]

Yes.
Yes.
No.

Congratulation you are not grovelling you are worshiping. You also win a free puppy hug (puppy not included, you will have to prive your own).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I’m writing this from a Christian perspective but have not put it in the Christian DIR as I’d like to hear what people from other traditions think about the distinction between worshipping God and grovelling to him...

Claim: I don’t believe worshipping God involves belittling ourselves to him, which is what many people think.

Allow me to unpack that claim:

When I was an atheist I used to think “Worship” was all about groveling and sucking up to God, and belittling oneself. I saw this as a kind of anti-human tyranny of organised religion.

I then learnt that the word “worship” is from “Weorthscipe” – Old English for an “acknowledgment of worth” – which has nothing to do with groveling!

Here are some bible verses on submitting to God, which I think we should do as he is good and wise rather than because he is big and powerful:

What Does the Bible Say About Submission?

Here are some about praising him for all he's done for humankind (e.g. creating us, making covenants, sending Jesus):

What Does the Bible Say About Worship?

And here are some about obeying him:

What Does the Bible Say About Obedience?

Nowhere in my bible does it say worship needs to involve groveling and belittling oneself before him like Moslems do 5 times a day in which they literally bow down before him: Obviously, such practices are not biblical…

In my opinion: Praise, worship and submission, yes. But sycophancy, no: God is great and God is good – but we are not insignificant, and we are not (generally) wicked or depraved. He loves us and didn’t create us for us to bow down to him all the time. Imagine if a human father demanded that of his children! Social services would be involved...

I do not believe he requires us to self-deprecate, but that he wants a relationship with us in which we honour him as our creator and in which he loves us as his creation:

I believe worship, praise, and obedience to be human responses to God’s love and that no being who truly loved us would want us to grovel. I believe he wants us to say “You are worthy, Lord!” – not “We’re not worthy, Lord!”.

I don’t think worshipping the Supreme Being needs to involve people minimalizing their own worth as his created beings. But in our society, this is often how people think about worship. I certainly used to see things that way. I now believe I misunderstood.

What do people think about all this?

I think it's more "god is greater than I" and "he's knows everything"...that putting him above others is a form of mental groveling. If god is not equal to his creation, it's not a form of "friendship" but more of father/child. So, one doesn't need to be on their hands and knees to grovel (in context). It's how the religion is set up. The bible has always had a hierarchical view. The part I agree is some forms of worship are less healthier than others. Someone who genuflects, raise their hands, prayers alone, etc are all forms of worship. I'd say graveling is also a hierarchy mindset. While no one needs to be on the floor to grovel to god, in a sense he is "grander" than the believer, it's in the mindset still.

 

[74x12]

I’m writing this from a Christian perspective but have not put it in the Christian DIR as I’d like to hear what people from other traditions think about the distinction between worshipping God and grovelling to him...

Claim: I don’t believe worshipping God involves belittling ourselves to him, which is what many people think.

Allow me to unpack that claim:

When I was an atheist I used to think “Worship” was all about groveling and sucking up to God, and belittling oneself. I saw this as a kind of anti-human tyranny of organised religion.

I then learnt that the word “worship” is from “Weorthscipe” – Old English for an “acknowledgment of worth” – which has nothing to do with groveling!

Here are some bible verses on submitting to God, which I think we should do as he is good and wise rather than because he is big and powerful:

What Does the Bible Say About Submission?

Here are some about praising him for all he's done for humankind (e.g. creating us, making covenants, sending Jesus):

What Does the Bible Say About Worship?

And here are some about obeying him:

What Does the Bible Say About Obedience?

Nowhere in my bible does it say worship needs to involve groveling and belittling oneself before him like Moslems do 5 times a day in which they literally bow down before him: Obviously, such practices are not biblical…

In my opinion: Praise, worship and submission, yes. But sycophancy, no: God is great and God is good – but we are not insignificant, and we are not (generally) wicked or depraved. He loves us and didn’t create us for us to bow down to him all the time. Imagine if a human father demanded that of his children! Social services would be involved...

I do not believe he requires us to self-deprecate, but that he wants a relationship with us in which we honour him as our creator and in which he loves us as his creation:

I believe worship, praise, and obedience to be human responses to God’s love and that no being who truly loved us would want us to grovel. I believe he wants us to say “You are worthy, Lord!” – not “We’re not worthy, Lord!”.

I don’t think worshipping the Supreme Being needs to involve people minimalizing their own worth as his created beings. But in our society, this is often how people think about worship. I certainly used to see things that way. I now believe I misunderstood.

What do people think about all this?

I believe God wants us to worship Him because this is how we enter into His presence. And to be in the presence of God means we are also present to Him. And so this brings God great joy as it would please any father to be with their children.

So anyone who worships God long enough know that it brings joy. I believe the joy we feel is not our own but it is the joy of God that He is feeling because He enjoys our presence.

Psalm 100:4
Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.

Zephaniah 3:17
The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

Psalm 16:11
Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

 

[74x12]

When I was an atheist I used to think “Worship” was all about groveling and sucking up to God, and belittling oneself. I saw this as a kind of anti-human tyranny of organised religion.

I then learnt that the word “worship” is from “Weorthscipe” – Old English for an “acknowledgment of worth” – which has nothing to do with groveling!

Although God treats us as sons and daughters; He is still a great King so it's not wrong to do obeisance. As even king's sons and daughters still kneel or even bow to their father. Being royalty has it's ramifications.

Buuut ... God desires sincere worship. Although I believe it is a good thing to bow down to God and worship Him with humility. It must be done sincerely. If you don't feel it; then we shouldn't do it.

Groveling, servility has the connotation or reputation of being fake or insincere. God doesn't desire any thing like that from us. In fact it's not good.

So, you do what you really feel when worshiping. As people grow in love/knowledge of God and His ways; then they will understand it's a great honor to kneel down, to bow down etc. rather than abasement. But, you should worship God as you feel comfortable doing it.

 

[Skwim]

Here are some about praising him for all he's done for humankind (e.g. creating us, making covenants, sending Jesus):

And let's not forget those other things he's done for us.

CREATES EVIL FOR US

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.​

GAVE PEOPLE THE RIGHT TO OWN OTHERS

1 Timothy 6:1
All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered.

​

SADDLED EVERYONE ON EARTH WITH SIN AND DEATH BECAUSE OF THE MISTAKE OF TWO PEOPLE

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

​

GAVE US REASON TO KILL HOMOSEXUALS

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.
​

KEEPS THE RIFFRAFF AWAY FROM THE RIGHTEOUS AFTER DEATH, AND IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS NO LESS

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 13: 49-50
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from the righteous,
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

​

AND FOR SOME ODD REASON MADE NAKEDNESS SHAMEFUL

Genesis 2:25
And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

Genesis 3:7
At that moment their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves.

.



​

 

[Jainarayan]

Congratulation you are not grovelling you are worshiping. You also win a free puppy hug (puppy not included, you will have to prive your own).

Actually it’s not (just) me... it’s the Hindu way. We don’t fear our gods, we love and respect them as we would family elders, or trusted friends and mentors. No matter what we do, they don’t punish us.

 

[74x12]

No matter what we do, they don’t punish us.

What about karma?