World Peace and Religion

[Shantanu]

When we consider that religion is the basis of a common bond among people. It seems that World Peace hinges upon religion. Religion will either Save the World or it will Destroy It.

It cannot be allowed to destroy the World. This is achieved by subjecting Religion to the highest levels of scrutiny and sift out the false from the true. That God exists is undeniable, but over and above that, religion should not play a part in the detailed considerations of what is required for World Peace because God has no say in the matter.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

If God has no say in the matter, then all of us are lost.

It is precisely that we are arrogant enough to believe we know what World Peace looks like, that we choose charming sociopaths to lead us.

The parable of the wicked tenants explains that all earthly rulers are in place because we have treated God as on vacation, rather than the true ruler of our lives. God's rule is not a theocracy but a benevolent constitutional anarchy.

When God rules, we understand how to govern ourselves.

 

[Left Coast]

If God has no say in the matter, then all of us are lost.

What led you to that conclusion? God's "say" is useless until he shows his face down here and gives it to us. The only "say" of God's I've ever heard is what people claim it to be on his behalf, which isn't any better than their own opinion.

The parable of the wicked tenants explains that all earthly rulers are in place because we have treated God as on vacation, rather than the true ruler of our lives. God's rule is not a theocracy but a benevolent constitutional anarchy.

Sorry, no. The Biblical God is a tyrant who punishes those who disobey him with never-ending torture. Jesus taught in parables to be intentionally confusing to the masses so only his select chosen few could understand (Mark 4:10-12). And that's just the New Testament! These are not the marks of "benevolent constitutional anarchy."

 

[arthra]

It seems that World Peace hinges upon religion. Religion will either Save the World or it will Destroy It.

In 1912 the eldest Son of Baha'u'llah visited the United States and He was invited to attend a Peace Conference on the shores of Lake Mohonk in New York. There were many representatives of various countries and the discussion was how to prevent war. Here's a photo of one of the conferences:



The hosts of the Conference were Quakers who have historically taken a strong position for peace. Abdul-Baha was invited as He represented the Baha'i Faith. Abdul-Baha presented a Persian carpet to the Smiley brothers and I'm told descendants of the family still have it.

 

[Trailblazer]

“There are some things a theist can do that are perceived as good that can't be done through secular means, because more good is possible with the assistance of God.”
Example?

Pretty much anything we do we get assistance with if we ask and we have faith in God, even though we cannot see that assistance.

“There are some things an atheist can do that are perceived as good that can be done through secular means, because belief is not necessary to be a good person.”
This seems to directly contradict the previous statement.

No, not at all, because being a good person is still possible even if we do not get assistance from God.
There are some things an atheist can do that are perceived as bad, because an atheist has no fear of God.

If the only reason that you don't murder someone is because you "fear" big brother is watching you, then that is pretty disturbing...

You are correct, if the only reason we are good is because we fear God that does not say much about our morals.

And it also seems to directly contradict the previous statement where you said that belief is not necessary to be good. If being religious is not a requirement for being good, then why would not being religious make it easier to be bad?
It makes no sense. Can't have one without the other.

That does not compute. If one is religious and fears God, it is more difficult to be bad because there are consequences for one’s actions.

Conversely, if one is not religious and has no fear of God, it is easier to be bad because there are no consequences for one’s actions.

My point was that “some people” do not need the fear of God to be good and that is why belief is not necessary (for everyone) in order to be a good person.

But belief is necessary for “most people” to be good people, because fear of God is the only thing that will keep them in line.

Thank you so much for bringing this up, because it just reminded me of a very important passage that explains why it is important to believe in and fear God.

“The first word which the Abhá Pen hath revealed and inscribed on the first leaf of Paradise is this: “Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed, and do not possess, it. It is incumbent upon the kings and the spiritual leaders of the world to lay fast hold on religion, inasmuch as through it the fear of God is instilled in all else but Him.” Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

 

[Trailblazer]

Nowhere in the any scripture does it say anything like that. It's just what YOU believe / claim. And I can guarantee you that the vast majority of actual followers of these religions, would disagree with you. Heavily.

Well then, tough tiddlywinks, because it does not MATTER what the followers of the religions think, it only matters what God thinks.
And it DOES say that in the scriptures of Baha’u’llah.

“But later Muhammad was “the Way” and now Baha’u’llah is “the Way.””

Uhu, uhu....
I guess that's why Islam is so fond and supportive of apostates, who leave islam exclusivity and why muslims love the Baha'i so much.

Like I just said, it does not MATTER what the followers of the religions think, it only matters what God thinks. God is always right because God is Infallible. The Muslims and previous religions simply did not get the latest message from God via Baha’u’llah so that are like a computer that needs UPDATES...

“No, the great religions do not contradict each other at all.”

You seem in denial.

Nope, I just know that an Infallible, All-Knowing and All-Wise God does not contradict Himself, so the ORIGINAL revelations that came from God are not contradictory, although theyare different, since the NEEDS of mankind have been different in every age.

A rough analogy is that you are a man and I am awoman so we are different in certain ways, but that does not mean we have to contradict each other.

As I said before, what ends up happening is that humans change the original revelations from God by misinterpreting and mistranslating the original scriptures after which time the scriptures (and thus the religions) APPEAR contradictory.

“They all have the same spiritual teachings.”

They really, really, really, REALLY... don't.

Even within the denominations of a single religion, like christianity, there will be fundamental differences.... like "salvation through faith" vs "salvation through works" vs "salvation through faith + works".

Bzzzzzt...

First, you are talking about man-made dogma, so that is why there are fundamental differences that contradict each other.

Second, these doctrines are not the spiritual teachings of the religions; they are man-made doctrines, and since men think differently, the doctrines differ.

Now, let’s look at some actual scriptures of two different religions, Christianity and the Baha’i Faith, and compare the spiritual teachings. Then you will SEE how similar they actually are.

Matthew 7:24-27 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

There is a very similar passage in the scriptures of the Bahai Faith:

“For every one of you his paramount duty is to choose for himself that on which no other may infringe and none usurp from him. Such a thing—and to this the Almighty is My witness—is the love of God, could ye but perceive it.
Build ye for yourselves such houses as the rain and floods can never destroy, which shall protect you from the changes and chances of this life. This is the instruction of Him Whom the world hath wronged and forsaken.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 261

Here is another important spiritual teaching that is the same in Christianity and the Baha’i Faith:

Matthew 7:3-5 Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while there is still a beam in your own eye?You hypocrite! First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

Here is another important spiritual teaching that is the same in Christianity and the Baha’i Faith:

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

“Thine eye is My trust, suffer not the dust of vain desires to becloud its luster. Thine ear is a sign of My bounty, let not the tumult of unseemly motives turn it away from My Word that encompasseth all creation. Thine heart is My treasury, allow not the treacherous hand of self to rob thee of the pearls which I have treasured therein. Thine hand is a symbol of My loving-kindness, hinder it not from holding fast unto My guarded and hidden Tablets….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 322

“It is established in all the prophetic cycles and it is renewed in every age

; religion teaches faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......”

Good job ignoring reality once again.
You really do live in your utopian world of make-belief do you?

I just proved my point above. I am living in reality, and what I have are the ACTUAL scriptures to back me up. You are right that religions contradict each other, but THAT is because humans changed them. C’mon, I know you can figure this out, atheists are very smart. You just have to apply yourself and try to think differently than you always have, given the NEW information I have presented.

Over here in actual reality, I see religion being divisive, poisonous, dishonest, corrupt, oppressive towards women, homophobic, unethical/immoral,...

Ignoring those aspects won't make them go away.

You are now in another ball park. AGAIN you are talking about what humans have done to change the original religions of God. So what you are talking about is what people do, not what the revelations from God actually teach.

You may start your excuses again now about how that is not religion but the people having false beliefs about it, while completely and utterly ignoring that all those things are right there in the scriptures - really not up for any "interpretation" whatsoever.

I will give you that there are some things in the Bible that are not what we should be following in this new day, such as oppression towards women and homosexuals, slavery, etc. That is one reason why we needed a NEW religion, humanity was sorely in need of an update.

“Religions build upon each other, like successive chapters in a book, each one leading up to the next.
They only appear to contradict each other because man has corrupted the true meaning of the scriptures over time, as noted above.”

And you have access to the "uncorrupted" originals or something? So who died and gave you all this secret information that apparently nobody else in the world has access too?

The problem is we do not have any original writings of any Prophets/Messengers of God that preceded Baha’u’llah so we only have what men wrote, men who were inspired by God... Then of course there have been transcription and translation errors so the Bible is even further removed from representing the will of God. Yes, the Bible has been corrupted in certain instances and that is one reason why we needed a new revelation from God.

“It is the man-made doctrines and dogmas that contradict each other, but you cannot blame God for that, since humans have free will and they mess things up every chance they get.”

Typical apologist....

"Everything I don't like, I'll blame on humans. And everything I like, I'll attribute to God".

That is because I am logical. An Infallible God cannot make any mistakes, only fallible humans can make mistakes.

Typical atheist....

"Everything I don't like, I'll blame on God or religion. And everything I like, I'll attribute to humans who don’t believe in them".

 

[Trailblazer]

Ahh, apologetics, nor what the bible says but what one person (or a small group) thinks it should have said.

No, the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is not exactly what the Bible says because it is a new revelation from God.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Religion has been responsible for creating peace and for disrupting peace.
in 1914, during World War I, there was a cessation of hostilities as people from both sides celebrated Christmas together. Some even refusing to go back to fighting each other.
In the 2018 Olympics, North and South Korea joined together to compete as a single team.

Emperor Theodosius was the last Roman Emperor to rule over a united East and West Roman Empire.
He declared Nicene Christianity to be the official state church of the Roman Empire, he allowed the temples of the old religions to be destroyed, and he banned the Olympics because they were pagan. Historians use his death to mark the beginning of the Middle Ages.

When we consider that religion is the basis of a common bond among people. It seems that World Peace hinges upon religion. Religion will either Save the World or it will Destroy It.

Thoughts?

I don't believe world peace is feasible or desirable. The most important deities of my religion are war deities, among other spheres of influence. It's just part of life and I am fine with conflict.

 

[ChristineM]

No, the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is not exactly what the Bible says because it is a new revelation from God.

Nope, a new (ish) apologetic

And you said
"No, not a different God, just a different understanding of the Bible and a new scripture that clarifies what the Bible really meant...

You even describe it as apologetics

 

[dfnj]

Whether or not religion existed or not it would be EXACTLY the same song:

Let's face it, peace sells:

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Pretty much anything we do we get assistance with if we ask and we have faith in God, even though we cannot see that assistance.

So you claim.

No, not at all, because being a good person is still possible even if we do not get assistance from God.

Which literally means that gods or belief in gods, is not at all a requirement to be and act good. The point exactly.

There are some things an atheist can do that are perceived as bad, because an atheist has no fear of God.

If you don't do certain things out of fear of punishment, then you are not acting morally.
That's what I call a corrupt motivation.

You are correct, if the only reason we are good is because we fear God that does not say much about our morals.

Right. So why are you even mentioning it?

That does not compute. If one is religious and fears God, it is more difficult to be bad because there are consequences for one’s actions.

You JUST agreed that having that as a motivation to not do bad, has nothing to with morality.

Conversely, if one is not religious and has no fear of God, it is easier to be bad because there are no consequences for one’s actions.

Actually, there ARE consequences. And they are infinitly more real. Like jail time etc.
You fear imaginary after-life punishments. The boogey man under the bed.

Take a baseball bat, go out and start smashing random people's face in. See what happens.
I guarantee you there will be consequences for you. And I guarantee you that your god won't have anything to do with them.

My point was that “some people” do not need the fear of God to be good and that is why belief is not necessary (for everyone) in order to be a good person.

And those people, I will call moral.
Those who don't do bad because they fear big brother is watching, is what I call immoral people.
Yes.

But belief is necessary for “most people” to be good people

Is it?
Reality seems to disagree with that.
For example, why is that atheists are so completely underrepresented in prison, compared to the "free" population?

If your statement was correct, I'ld expect to see a disproportional HIGH number of atheists in prison. But the reverse is true.....

, because fear of God is the only thing that will keep them in line.

So most people are psychopaths who are utterly incapable of moral reasoning and who require an authority to fear and who's commandments must be followed?

Seriously?

 

[Trailblazer]

Nope, a new (ish) apologetic

And you said
"No, not a different God, just a different understanding of the Bible and a new scripture that clarifies what the Bible really meant...

You even describe it as apologetics

What does that mean, apologetics?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

But belief is necessary for “most people” to be good people, because fear of God is the only thing that will keep them in line.

As a small sidenote on this one..............

Salah Abdeslam and Abdelhamid Abaoud were bad news.
Small crumb street criminals. Dealing in weed, speed and xtc. Being nasty with and to girls. Got into fights out of boredom. Robbed people in the streets. Stuff like that.

Then they found "faith" and started believing and fearing god.

This fear of god then turned them into ISIS soldiers. I don't think I need to explain what happened next. These were the plotters and part of the squad of the Paris attacks. Some of their friends, who pretty much have the same story, were part of the squad that did the attacks on Zaventem and the subway in Brussels.


And these guys (except salah, he's in jail) ALL died completely believing they were acting out their moral, ethical, religious duty.
They feared their god and believed.

And that was the result.

Yey religion and blind faith?

 

[wandering peacefully]

Religion has been responsible for creating peace and for disrupting peace.
in 1914, during World War I, there was a cessation of hostilities as people from both sides celebrated Christmas together. Some even refusing to go back to fighting each other.
In the 2018 Olympics, North and South Korea joined together to compete as a single team.

Emperor Theodosius was the last Roman Emperor to rule over a united East and West Roman Empire.
He declared Nicene Christianity to be the official state church of the Roman Empire, he allowed the temples of the old religions to be destroyed, and he banned the Olympics because they were pagan. Historians use his death to mark the beginning of the Middle Ages.

When we consider that religion is the basis of a common bond among people. It seems that World Peace hinges upon religion. Religion will either Save the World or it will Destroy It.

Thoughts?

Neither save nor destroy. Just like the past 3,000 years. Where are we now with religions? That amount of time should be some indicator of its success in bringing world peace no? Are we there yet?

 

[wandering peacefully]

If God has no say in the matter, then all of us are lost.

It is precisely that we are arrogant enough to believe we know what World Peace looks like, that we choose charming sociopaths to lead us.

The parable of the wicked tenants explains that all earthly rulers are in place because we have treated God as on vacation, rather than the true ruler of our lives. God's rule is not a theocracy but a benevolent constitutional anarchy.

When God rules, we understand how to govern ourselves.

You people are scary. Whose gods and rules are we all going to follow? Who gets to decide which gods and rules...yikes!

 

[ChristineM]

What does that mean, apologetics?

Those using apologetics see at as meaning reasoned argument to justify a religious point.

What i see is moving goalposts, using a time machine and even out and out misrepresentation of the point

 

[Ponder This]

What do you mean by that?

Some religions don't have gods.

If correctly understood Religion bonds humans to unity, peace and justice; if not correctly understood it is the fault of the vested individuals not of the Religion itself. Right, please?

Cults can be religions too though, right?

"There is nothing a theist can do that is perceived as good, that can't be done through secular means.
There are many things a theist can do that is perceived as bad, that could only be done in the name of some god"

So Secular Christmas and atheist Communism is definitely not bad?
Hitchens was clever, but even he made hyperbolic statements of absolutes.

It cannot be allowed to destroy the World. This is achieved by subjecting Religion to the highest levels of scrutiny and sift out the false from the true. That God exists is undeniable, but over and above that, religion should not play a part in the detailed considerations of what is required for World Peace because God has no say in the matter.

It may not be logical to give consideration to religion, but it may be true that religion will influence the result regardless of whether or not we give it consideration.

Neither save nor destroy. Just like the past 3,000 years. Where are we now with religions? That amount of time should be some indicator of its success in bringing world peace no? Are we there yet?

I'm not sure I see why '3000 years' is considered to be of importance to you. Doesn't it make more sense to consider each event towards or away from Peace throughout History than to give an arbitrary amount of time for the achievement of success or failure? By the 3000 year measure, we must reject a lot more than 'religion'. I suppose we can add the invention of the wheel to the list of ideas that failed to bring about World Peace...

 

[Shantanu]

It may not be logical to give consideration to religion, but it may be true that religion will influence the result regardless of whether or not we give it consideration.

That is true: Religion will influence the result but it will be for the benefit of all once the true facts about God are out in the open. I will change my mind and attend the appointment of 28 June 2019, 9.30 am with my Consultant Psychiatrist and show her all my Case Files where I have accurately recorded my correspondence with God as an Entity who is truly benevolent and wishes to help humanity through His interjections into people's lives. He is a living Entity in my experience.

 

[wandering peacefully]

Some religions don't have gods.



Cults can be religions too though, right?



So Secular Christmas and atheist Communism is definitely not bad?
Hitchens was clever, but even he made hyperbolic statements of absolutes.



It may not be logical to give consideration to religion, but it may be true that religion will influence the result regardless of whether or not we give it consideration.



I'm not sure I see why '3000 years' is considered to be of importance to you. Doesn't it make more sense to consider each event towards or away from Peace throughout History than to give an arbitrary amount of time for the achievement of success or failure? By the 3000 year measure, we must reject a lot more than 'religion'. I suppose we can add the invention of the wheel to the list of ideas that failed to bring about World Peace...

That is around how many years organized religions have been around. Probably longer like 5,000 years starting with Hinduism.

You are the one who asked about religions bringing world peace. I was just obseving that has been a long time if it was religion which would bring world peace. Still waiting so it's fairly obvious that it is in no way, shape or form going to bring world peace.

You didn't ask about wheels.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Religion does not do that, religious people do that.

I agree.

Dividing the world into "us v. them" is a human instinct, which some have stronger than others. As Jonathan Swift intimated, if we don't divide by religion, politics, class, race, nationality, or ethnicity, we would start dividing by which end of the egg we crack.