1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured World Peace and Religion

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Ponder This, May 3, 2019.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    9,389
    Ratings:
    +2,112
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Why do you think that? :confused:
    I don't think they can or should. That needs to remain secular.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    16,370
    Ratings:
    +11,600
    Religion:
    None
    Is it your belief that god created man deliberately faulty, in which case he is malevolent, or that he is not all knowing and made an error?

    Precisely
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    9,389
    Ratings:
    +2,112
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    It is my belief that God created man good and after we are born we differentiate ourselves (become good or bad) by the free will choices we make and ensuing behaviors. God has nothing to do with our choices, that is why it is called free will.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    16,370
    Ratings:
    +11,600
    Religion:
    None
    And you are welcome to your belief

    Still not answered the question. Are you saying god created man deliberately faulty by giving them free will and thus the means to defy him or that he made an error in design in allowing humans free will do defy him.

    Remember we are talking of a jealous god who craves worship.
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    9,389
    Ratings:
    +2,112
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    God did not create man faulty just because man has the ability to choose. If we did not have free will we would not be able to choose to do anything so we would be like programmed robots.

    Why wouldn’t God want humans to have a choice to defy Him or not defy Him? Nothing whatsoever can either increase or diminish the things God possesses. As such, God only wants us to worship Him for our own benefit. God needs nothing from us since God is fully self-sufficient.
    I am not talking about that God. The God I believe in is not jealous and He does not crave worship. In fact, He does not even need anyone worshiping Him.
     
  6. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,509
    Ratings:
    +2,500
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I'll share the thoughts of the late Hitchins:

    "There is nothing a theist can do that is perceived as good, that can't be done through secular means.
    There are many things a theist can do that is perceived as bad, that could only be done in the name of some god
    "
     
  7. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,509
    Ratings:
    +2,500
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I'ld say that that is true for fundamentalism in any ideology - not just religious ones.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  8. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,509
    Ratings:
    +2,500
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Are you kidding me?
    You must be.....

    "Nobody gets to the Father except through me"

    ...to name just one example.

    No, the religions themselves, say that.

    Then this god amuses himself with sowing confusion by revealing mutually exclusive religions that contradict one another.

    They really really aren't.
    Just like episodes of star trek, don't fit in the books of star wars.
     
  9. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    16,370
    Ratings:
    +11,600
    Religion:
    None
    Therefore he created them faulty, the ability to choose is not beneficial for a god

    Because he is a god and demands worship


    Ahh so you have a different god?
     
  10. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Messages:
    8,586
    Ratings:
    +6,626
    Religion:
    Christian
    Interesting. I've never thought about it outside the religious realm. Do you have an example?
     
  11. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,509
    Ratings:
    +2,500
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Sure. Take marxism.

    You can be a "communist extremist" and end up like North Korea.
    Or you can be a socialist in a democracy, which is basically also founded on core Marxist ideas. A "moderate communist" if you will. If it were upto them, a CEO earning millions per year should divide his pay by 10 and give all his employees a raise with the money.


    You can be an "capitalist extremist" and believe that no market should be regulated, that anything goes to make money and there not being anything wrong with monoplies.

    You can also be a "moderate capitalist" who thinks it's very okay to be succesfull and filthy rich, but also think there should be regulation, healthy competition etc.


    You can even be an extremist vegan and demand that nobody around you eats anything other then plants, or just be extremely intolerant of those who consume animals one way or the other. Imagine such a vegan being a dictator. Farmers would be prosecuted. Meat lovers would be considered murderers, etc.

    It sounds ridiculous perhaps.... But to me it really doesn't sound more ridiculous then living in an islamic theocracy and being punished for daring to drink a alcoholic beverage. How would that be different from living in a vegan dictatorship and being punished for eating chicken? :)
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. joe1776

    joe1776 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2017
    Messages:
    2,830
    Ratings:
    +984
    Religion:
    None
    I'm not a fan of religion but this quote won't hold up logically, IMO.

    If religion didn't exist, the same amount of people would still be doing their dirty deeds in the name of racism, nationalism or tribalism. Religion just gives them another pretext to satisfy the arrogant need to prove themselves superior to others.
     
    #52 joe1776, May 8, 2019
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    9,389
    Ratings:
    +2,112
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I’ll share some of my thoughts, some food for thought:

    There are some things a theist can do that are perceived as good that can't be done through secular means, because more good is possible with the assistance of God.

    There are some things an atheist can do that are perceived as good that can be done through secular means, because belief is not necessary to be a good person.

    There are some things a theist can do that are perceived as bad that could only be done in the name of God.

    There are some things an atheist can do that are perceived as bad, because an atheist has no fear of God.
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    9,389
    Ratings:
    +2,112
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    You are correct. The religions say that but the reason they say that is because God wanted the people reading the scriptures of those religions to go to God through the Messenger/Prophet who revealed those scriptures; and in the dispensation of Jesus Christ that was Jesus. Jesus was “the Way” that God wanted people to use back then...

    But later Muhammad was “the Way” and now Baha’u’llah is “the Way.” There is a good reason why God wants us to use the newest Way in every new age. One reason is because the older religions become corrupted by man over time...

    “This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

    The other reason is because the new religion has a new remedy that humanity needs for the particular problems that exist in the new age.

    “The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

    No, the great religions do not contradict each other at all. They all have the same spiritual teachings because the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things does not change over time. It is established in all the prophetic cycles and it is renewed in every age; religion teaches faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

    Religions build upon each other, like successive chapters in a book, each one leading up to the next. They only appear to contradict each other because man has corrupted the true meaning of the scriptures over time, as noted above.

    It is the man-made doctrines and dogmas that contradict each other, but you cannot blame God for that, since humans have free will and they mess things up every chance they get.
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    9,389
    Ratings:
    +2,112
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    No, not a different God, just a different understanding of the Bible and a new scripture that clarifies what the Bible really meant... The quotes below say it all in a nutshell....

    It does not affect God if we choose not to worship Him. Baha’u’llah made it perfectly clear that God had no needs since God is self-sufficient, thus God cannot have a “need” to be worshiped.

    “This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

    “Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess.” Gleanings, p. 148

    “Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166


    God does not demand worship, God enjoins us to worship Him, and that is only for our own benefit, not for God’s benefit.

    “Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 140

    “The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260
     
  16. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2019
    Messages:
    823
    Ratings:
    +613
    Religion:
    None
    It seems to me that "maintaining cultural borders" is also a form of control. Cultures naturally shift, interact, and blend all the time. There is no need to wall them off from each other.
    Your analysis also ignores the increasing secularization of cultures, which is likely to continue (and renders statements like "Europe and America is Christian" rather odd and out of date).
     
  17. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,509
    Ratings:
    +2,500
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Example?

    This seems to directly contradict the previous statement.

    If the only reason that you don't murder someone is because you "fear" big brother is watching you, then that is pretty disturbing...

    And it also seems to directly contradict the previous statement where you said that belief is not necessary to be good. If being religious is not a requirement for being good, then why would not being religious make it easier to be bad?

    It makes no sense. Can't have one without the other.
     
  18. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,509
    Ratings:
    +2,500
    Religion:
    Atheist

    Nowhere in the any scripture does it say anything like that. It's just what YOU believe / claim. And I can guarantee you that the vast majority of actual followers of these religions, would disagree with you. Heavily.

    Uhu, uhu....
    I guess that's why Islam is so fond and supportive of apostates, who leave islam exclusivity and why muslims love the Baha'i so much. :rolleyes:

    You seem in denial.




    They really, really, really, REALLY... don't.

    Even within the denominations of a single religion, like christianity, there will be fundamental differences.... like "salvation through faith" vs "salvation through works" vs "salvation through faith + works".

    Good job ignoring reality once again.
    You really do live in your utopian world of make-belief do you?

    Over here in actual reality, I see religion being divisive, poisonous, dishonest, corrupt, oppressive towards women, homophobic, unethical/immoral,...

    Ignoring those aspects won't make them go away.

    You may start your excuses again now about how that is not religion but the people having false beliefs about it, while completely and utterly ignoring that all those things are right there in the scriptures - really not up for any "interpretation" whatsoever.

    And you have access to the "uncorrupted" originals or something? So who died and gave you all this secret information that apparantly nobody else in the world has access too?


    :rolleyes:


    Typical apologist....

    "Everything I don't like, I'll blame on humans. And everything I like, I'll attribute to God".
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,509
    Ratings:
    +2,500
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Not to mention that in this information age, where the whole world (most of it anyway) has practically all human knowledge at their fingertips, accessible with but a few mouseclicks and where interaction with just about anyone somewhere on the planet is only but a few mouseclicks away.... it is utterly IMPOSSIBLE to "wall them off" from each other. Unless you build a "digital wall" like they did in China.

    And even there, you can not escape the influence of other cultures. There's trade, travel, etc.

    An eventual one-world culture is, imo, simply inevitable.
    The mistake I fear, is to think that it's a "cultural war" and that people think competitevly about it. As in "my culture must be that one global culture". I'ld say that's a wrong way to look at it. There's no need to "force" anything. It will all go naturally. As you say, cultures naturally shift and blend.

    So the one world culture that would inevitable surface at some point, is going to be one that currently does not exist. Or not in that form at least. It's going to be one that is the result of all that blending, shifting and interacting. One that will naturally surface out of it. This is a process that takes a long time too. I don't expect it to happen in my lifetime.

    Yup!
     
  20. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    16,370
    Ratings:
    +11,600
    Religion:
    None
    Ahh, apologetics, nor what the bible says but what one person (or a small group) thinks it should have said.
     
Loading...