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Featured Works vs Doctrine

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by iam1me, Aug 26, 2018.

  1. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Your argument is clearly refuted by two passages of scripture (besides the other verses and passages that also disagree with your view.)

    First of all in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 we find that some people will be saved even though their works (good deeds) were burned up. Because those works were not worthy. However the person themselves will still be saved by fire. So that is salvation without works. That is salvation by the pure mercy/goodness of God.

    Secondly, of course the thief on the cross was saved without any work other than believing in Jesus and being sorry for his sins. (Luke 23:43)
     
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  2. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    But from what you're saying, it sounds like you actually agree with #2. It seems to me that you and Prestor John are saying much the same thing.
     
  3. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    Since Jesus died for all, and this is a gift that isn't established via our works, then (if we understand salvation in the simple terms above) everyone should be saved period. There should be no Judgement or Second Death. But there is a Judgement and Second Death - so proof texting verses like Ephesians 2:8-9, ignoring all the other verses on the matter, is going to only give you a partial understanding of the matter.

    I've addressed these verses by pointing out the distinction in what the gift of God is here. It is mercy, forgiveness, justification, etc. Christ, through his sacrifice, gave us the New Covenant through which we can be saved. This is indeed a gift that we cannot earn - but this isn't the end of the story. Salvation, eternal life, scripture is very clear that we must persevere in doing God's will to receive these - and I've provided plenty of scripture on this that is simply being ignored.

    Indeed, God is merciful. However, let us be clear that in the context of this verse that one had to present what they had built to be tested. This is distinct from someone who never built anything.

    Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
     
  4. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    I've quoted a number of verses that explicitly state that eternal life is the reward for our good deeds, for doing God's will. If you disagree then you need to address those scriptures - not blindly ignore them.

    Then why isn't everyone saved? Jesus died for all. Under your over simplified view, this should be the end of the matter.
     
  5. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    Presetor John is saying that - in the end - everyone is saved. This is inconsistent with the scriptures which teach that there is a Judgement and Second Death.
     
  6. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    You can't refute scripture by quoting scripture. You must take all scripture into account - not ignore the parts you don't like. I've addresses this by pointing out that what Christ did was to establish the New Covenant through which salvation is made possible. This is a gift we did not earn, but it doesn't guarentee salvation in and of itself. Else everyone would be saved and there wouldn't be a Judgment and Second Death.
     
  7. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    You're directly contradicting scriptures like 2 Timothy 1:9. All scriptures must agree together. So, I think that obviously you don't understand those scriptures as well as you should.
    Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of Lights ... (James 1:17)
    So that means that whatever goodness you do have is from God. A gift. And it is therefore given by grace. So what good thing do you have that you haven't received? (1 Corinthians 4:7) So no one can boast that their own works have saved them.

    You claim that our good works save us. Well then we are in trouble because according to the scriptures no one does any good. In fact we've all gone out of the way and become unprofitable. (Romans 3:12) We are in trouble.

    And all our righteousness is as filthy rags. (Isaiah 64:6) Filthy rags are no fit ransom for your soul. The ransom of our souls is precious. (Psalm 49:8) So the only way to be saved is to repent. No amount of good deeds can save someone who turns away to sin. (Ezekiel 18:24)

    Only the mercy and forgiveness of God can save you. (Psalm 103:10)
    You are the one contradicting scripture (Ephesians 2:8-9). I do not ignore any of those other verses. However I keep them in context with other scriptures and in agreement with them. You are not acknowledging how the thief was saved on the cross. Secondly you're ignoring how some people's works will be burned up and yet they will be saved.

    That doesn't mean obedience to Jesus as Lord is not necessary and that doesn't mean we shouldn't live a holy life and repent of our sins. However, as some people take the doctrine of salvation by grace to the extreme and say that all people are saved and that sinners are okay with God. And others claim you just need to believe and then go on living in sins and you'll be saved. That's completely wrong.

    BUT, some people take it to the opposite extreme; which is what you're doing by saying that our good works save us. You can't show up to the wedding with any old clothes on. You must have the wedding garment. (Matthew 22:12) That is trusting in the righteousness that Jesus' own blood provides. Not trusting your own works to save you. Either you trust in Jesus or you don't. Anything more than the blood of Jesus and the operation of the holy Spirit is pride.

    So in conclusion yes the judgment will be based on people's deeds. And everyone will reap what they sow, but without the mercy and forgiveness of God then people's sins cannot be blotted out. Salvation will always only be by grace and mercy of God.
     
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  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I like that, rocking-chair religion. I called it couch potato.
     
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  9. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    My position actually factors into account all of these scriptures, while you are simply ignoring them. You choosing one set of scriptures over another rather than seeking to understand that there is both grace and works at play - and eternal life is the reward for our works. 2 Timothy does not contradict my position in the least, for I full accept the fact that Christ has made salvation to us by grace. You take this and over apply it - however - asserting that therefore nothing else is required of us. But this contradicts everything said in the scriptures concerning the Judgement.


    God gave us freewill and instructed us in what is right. In this sense all our good deeds are made possible because of God. However this does not change the fact that they are freewill decisions and worthy of merit. Hence God says he will repay us for our deeds - with a life of good deeds and righteousness resulting in eternal life.

    That passage doesn't say that no one at all ever does good, has done good, will do good, or that they cannot do good. It is lamenting how people in general, and the Jewish people specifically at a particular point in time, had become utterly sinful and useless. The scriptures often speak in hyperbole. However, the scriptures themselves provide many examples of good people who - in general - do good things. King David was even said to be a man after God's own heart.

    Furthermore, God tells us that we are fully capable of doing good

    Deuteronomy 30:11-14 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.​

    If you have the Holy Spirit and you study God's Word, then you will know what is righteous and good in God's sight. And that is love - love for God and love for your fellow man. This is our very purpose - to do good deeds.

    Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    The scriptures are also very clear that your faith without deeds is dead and cannot save you (James 2)

    Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    1 John 4:7-8 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

    1 John 4:20-21 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

    Indeed it is only through God's mercy and forgiveness that we are saved - and these are gifts granted through Christ and the New Covenant established with his blood. But eternal life is the reward for our good deeds that God repays us for (Romans 2:6-11), and this is a promise which we must persevere to receive.

    Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

    You are cherry picking. You select a set of verses that you think teach one thing and use them as a justification for ignoring everything that contradicts your position.

    And I have not ignore the fact that some people's works will be burned up and yet be saved. I addressed that by pointing out a simple fact: those who had their works burned up still had works to present for testing. This is very distinct from one who does nothing. To such people Jesus tells us what he will say to such people: ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    You have taken things to an illogical and unbiblical extreme by trying to deny the fact that eternal life is the reward for good works -which scripture explicitly states many times, and exhorts us to persevere so that we may receive what is promised.

    No one suggested that salvation is purely based upon people's deeds - of course it is all only made possible through Christ in the first place, through God's grace and mercy. You are taking this to an extreme, however, to deny the fact that eternal life or damnation is determined based upon one's deeds.
     
  10. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    No one does any good and all are in need of a Savior. He even claims (quoting from the Psalm) that no one even seeks God. (Romans 3:11) Neither Jew nor gentile. (Romans 3:9) So even if you seek God it is because God found you first and put that desire in your heart. (John 6:44) The desire for God is the holy Spirit knocking on the door of your heart. It's not you! (Revelation 3:20)

    Adam and Eve did not seek God after they sinned. They hid themselves because of shame and God found them to reconcile them to Himself. It has ever been this way since the beginning.

    "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

    "John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven." (John 3:27)

    A man can receive nothing from God unless it's given to Him from heaven. That is the grace of God. Whoever has any good thing. Whether a man repents of his sins or believes in Jesus or whatever good and spiritual thing he does. He has received that from God.

    Yes the Word of God was in their hearts in Deuteronomy 30:11-14. As in God had planted His good seed there. What comes of the seed is that it grows. This is the goodness and grace of God. This is how a man could become fruitful in the old Testament. By meditating on the Law day and night. Therefore, he would be a tree that brought forth it's fruit in his season. So again it is not them, but the Word(the Law) doing it's work inside of them. This is God's work. It is because God spoke and His doctrine dropped down like the rain, His speech distilled as the dew. So you bore fruit oh Israel. (Deuteronomy 32:2)

    Psalm 1:2-3
    But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
    But is love for you only a command? It is possible to do good deeds without having true love. Even to give your own body to be burned and not truly love. (see 1 Corinthians chapter 13) That is why people should draw near to God and let Him change their heart and fill them with His love. Then they will not need a command "Love thy neighbor as thyself" because they will be filled with God's own Love itself and so they will be a Law unto themselves and they will do good deeds by the Love of God in their heart without needing a commandment.

    Because if someone gives their body to be burned and has not love; it was vain according to the scripture.
    Look at the thief on the cross. He had nothing. Only faith in Jesus and he was sorry for his sins.

    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

    I think you're misunderstanding those verses slightly. Again this goes back to being fruitful. (Matthew 13:18-23)

    God looks for return on His investment. (Matthew 25:26-27, Luke 13:7) The fruits of the Word. The fruits of the holy Spirit. But in no way are we supposed to believe our own works is what save us. Then we are building the tower of Babel. Just as it's silly to think we can build our way into heaven with a tower. So it's also confusion(babel means confusion) to think our own works can save us.

    The fruit of the holy Spirit are indeed developed through works. Because all fruit are grown through works. Like as you keep saying faith without works is dead. And the scripture says "let us not love in word, neither in tongue but in deed(action) and in truth." So people should do works with that aim in mind. To develop what God has given them. To develop the fruit of the Spirit. But it's never to be said that our works save us. It's only God's mercy and grace. Without that we may not be saved.

    All I'm saying is that no one can be good enough and earn salvation. That we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) So our works; even the best ones cannot save us. Only God's mercy.

    It's self righteousness to believe we save ourselves through our own works. Because we're not trusting in God but ourselves. You don't earn your way to eternal life. You don't rely on yourself for salvation. Only God.

    So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)
     
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  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    What about works of man within the salvation of god?

    Scripture seperates works in two: righteous, that done with god as the "motor" and works of man-unrighteousness. The verses you (all) speak of is the latter. Scripture, in the light of faith-salvation-deeds-grace, or righteous is the works of god through man, the former.

    So how is works apart from salvation when those works originate from god and not man?
     
  12. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    You ignore the context in which critical verses like this appear - and thus your interpretation is uninformed. Repeating an uninformed view point it doesn't make it true. I've already addressed this fallacy - go back and see my previous post.

    This is true. It is equally true that there is no favoritism with God. This means that everyone will be judged fairly and equally. This means the damned had just as much ability and opportunity to be saved as those who were actually saved.This includes those who never heard of Christ.

    Already addressed this. God has given us freewill and knowledge of right from wrong (this includes non-believers as seen in Romans 2:12-16). From these we may choose to do good or evil - God has given us this choice (Deuteronomy 30)

    The seed, which is God's Word, may be plucked out of people's hearts and/or made barren. An individual must choose of their own volition to persevere in the faith, to continue to grow and ultimately receive that which is promised.


    Matthew 13:18-23 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”​

    So you see, it is not simply a matter of receiving God's Word - which is shared to all - but also of the individual who receives God's Word. It is on the individual that receives God's Word that determines whether or not the seed will produce fruit.


    John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.

    1 John 5:2-3 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome

    Jeremiah 31:33 This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.


    True repentance is itself a crucial act, a work, that we must do. Being the final act of the thief this was all he could do - and God accepted that. This is distinct, however, from one who goes to church their entire life and still does nothing. You must persevere in doing God's will to receive that which is promised.

    You need more than words to come to Him. If all you have are words - then you do not know God.


    James 2:18-20 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?​

    Until you acknowledge that the scriptures declare the eternal life is the reward for good works - you are simply being intellectually dishonest, cherry picking the scriptures as you please. Only when you have properly accounted for these verses can your interpretation carry any meaningful weight.

    No one has asserted that our works are sufficient for salvation in and of themselves. You, however, are denying that they serve any role in our salvation - even trying to say that if we do do good works, we aren't really the ones doing them. So you remove all personal responsibility or need for perseverance from your theology - a complete and utter contradiction of the scriptures.
     
    #92 iam1me, Sep 2, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
  13. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    While you are correct--the admonition that pure religion is helping widows and orphans comes to mind--you are talking about religious practice, good religion, not salvation. Salvation is from my armchair and Christ's cross, not I save myself and Jesus died in vain.
     
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  14. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Pulling single verses out of context is proof texting. I see above single texts that are clarified for you once you use the referent text--this is NOT proof texting. For example, YES, do the will of God to be saved--which is said to be "for everyone to trust Jesus" or Revelation as it says "only overcomers are saved" and I John says "overcomers trust Christ for salvation." In both cases, the verses you are quoting actually mean "trust Jesus for eternal life". Hebrews 4 "entering the rest" means to "enter Jesus by trust" and "falling short" means "to not trust Jesus", etc., etc., etc.

    I'm not an exclusivist. Since both testaments teach trust in God is salvation, others as you mentioned can trust God for salvation. However, no one can trust in their works, because they're trusting themselves and not God to save.

    By the way, when there exist over 100 verses on a statement, it's not proof texting. The NT says over 150 times, over 90 times in John alone, to trust Christ, not ourselves, not our works, for salvation.
     
  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    But that's not what the Parable of the Sheep & Goats (Matthew 25) says, as the "Goats" do believe about Jesus but not in Jesus because they do not live out Jesus' message and they are condemned because of it, thus losing out on salvation.

    Again, the key to understanding this is "agape", which in Koine Greek is more than just mere belief. IOW, one is to live out of God's agape (love) and not just sit back singing some songs and saying some prayers while ignoring the teachings to have compassion and justice (fairness) for all. Again, Christianity, much like Judaism, was meant to be a lifestyle-- not just having p.c. beliefs. Those in the early Church often risked their lives to help others, such as those with leprosy, which impressed others to want to join such a group built on such compassion for others.
     
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  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    But then isn't that only doing this for selfish reasons? That's not what "agape" is, which is more along the line of having love in our hearts, not for selfish reasons but for the reasons of incorporating God's love into our very psyche. If we do that out of appreciation for God creating us and all, then we can just let the chips fall where they may and not just try to buy our salvation.
     
  17. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    I am not pulling these verses out of context. Rather, attempting to focus on verses that speak of trusting Jesus as the work of God is proof-texting, for you are attempting to isolate the work that we are to do to a mere mental task. However, the scriptures are extremely clear about what is actually being asked of us: love the Lord and love thy fellowman, just as Christ loved us. We must give our lives doing so. Faith without works is dead and cannot save you (James 2).

    Also trying to play the numbers doesn't help you - at the end of the day you are choosing to ignore a significant amount of scripture rather than attempting to come to an understanding that incorporates the whole of scripture. You are proof-texting.

    Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    1 John 4:7-8 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

    You also failed to address the issue of favoritism that is a fundamental problem with your position.
     
    #97 iam1me, Sep 5, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
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  18. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    The first rule of Bible interpretation is savor all verses. Atheists have the proof text problem, pulling verses out without any cross-references or immediate context.

    You are savoring some verses, though they are unclear, and not relishing hundreds of clear verses describing the gospel and atonement. The good news isn’t “you were striving to be saved by works, so trust Jesus, then strive for good works to be saved.”

    I witness frequently to people who say they are striving to be saved by works and don’t need Jesus Christ. The good news is Jesus sets us free from striving to perfect ourselves, free from the curse of the law, sin and death.
     
  19. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Unbelievers aren't saved by agape love. They are saved by the cross. God gave us self-preservation instincts, why deny them instead of embracing the cross?
     
  20. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand what you mean by "an issue of favoritism"? Please explain. Do you mean "favorite Bible verses"?

    The first rule of Bible interpretation is savor all verses. Atheists have the proof text problem, pulling verses out without any cross-references or immediate context. For example, Matthew 7 could be talking about believers who lost their salvation--although here their works weren't the problem. Matthew 7 could be talking about fakers who were never born again.

    You are savoring some verses, though they are unclear, and not relishing hundreds of clear verses describing the gospel and atonement. The good news isn’t “you were striving to be saved by works, so trust Jesus, then strive for good works to be saved.”

    I witness frequently to people who say they are striving to be saved by works and don’t need Jesus Christ. The good news is Jesus sets us free from striving to perfect ourselves, free from the curse of the law, sin and death.
     
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