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Works vs Doctrine

74x12

Well-Known Member
There is something required of us, trust, in Jesus. Not everyone has this trust, and those who trust go to a feast for judgment, not the second judgment, second death, Hell, so when people emphasize works this much, respectfully, I question whether they trust Jesus or themselves for salvation, which is not actual salvation.

I see easily where it looks like works are required in texts, but how can believing works not be proof texting, since the same Paul said "of grace, NOT OF WORKS"? To be honest, how can I say "the whole of scripture shows works" when there are many verses (over 150) that say trust/believe Jesus for salvation, and quite a few verses that say NOT OF WORKS?

Just think, for example of the OT verses that say trusting God is IT.
It's impossible that works save anyone or Jesus died in vain. He shouldn't have died because our own works save us.

Jesus did not die in vain. He died because only He could save us. He was our only hope. The works of God are to be performed in obedience to God because God appointed us to do good works and by these works we bear fruit. The point is that Christians are the only light of the world. So that's why we do good works because we are testifying to the world the goodness of God.

It's not we who can do anything, but the Light of God who shines through us as a lamp does not burn by itself. But you put oil in the lamp and a flame on the wick so the lamp gives Light. So to for us, the Light of God shines from us and we are nothing without Him.

Every fruit of the Spirit: Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance. All of them are perfected in works. For example faith without works is dead. And the scripture says let us not love in word(only) but in deed(action) and in truth.

But it is not our works that truly save us. It's the unmerited favor of God. Even the mercy and clemency of God who forgives our sins and separates them from us as far as the east is from the west. And the work of the holy Spirit(who is God) inside bearing the fruit of the Spirit.

This saves anyone.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
I agree with #1. I think it would be difficult to reconcile #2 with the scriptures, however. The scriptures are also consistent in teaching that a persistent life of good works results in eternal life, whereas a sinful, selfish life results in punishment and death.
Why do you believe that #2 is not consistent with scripture?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Many protestants tend to believe that salvation is not something to be earned, not something with any requirements on our end whatsoever. However, a comprehensive reading of the scriptures makes it clear that eternal life is a reward for our good works - and that without these works ones faith is meaningless.
The scriptures make it clear that individuals are saved by grace, it is a gift...

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph. 2:8-9

And that those who are saved will walk in good works...

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Eph. 2:10
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The word for "love" as used in the gospels is "agape", which is difficult to translate from Koine Greek to English because there's no such single word in English that covers it. It's sorta like you live out love-- iow, it's an active noun-- not just have love (passive).
 
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pearl

Well-Known Member
The word for "love" as used in the gospels is "agape",

agape is the fundamental Christian metaphor for the Mystery that is God.

Agape is a purely other-directed love, a love that seeks no response and demands no return, a love centered totally on the beloved, a lover with all the passion of a true love. The reception of the Song of Songs in the canon of sacred Scripture was explained by the idea that these love songs ultimately describe God's relation to man and man's relation to God.

it's an active noun-- not just have love (passive).

1John 4:8, God is love.

The scriptures make it clear that individuals are saved by grace, it is a gift...

We are the recipients of this 'gift' through God' grace, not through any merit of ours.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Many protestants tend to believe that salvation is not something to be earned, not something with any requirements on our end whatsoever. However, a comprehensive reading of the scriptures makes it clear that eternal life is a reward for our good works - and that without these works ones faith is meaningless.

Worse still, the thing that most protestants do hinge salvation upon is doctrine. You must accept their particular set of core doctrines for salvation. With doctrines like the Trinity - you aren't even required to understand the doctrine - just assent to it. However, the scriptures present no such list of doctrines but rather, again, bases the Judgement off of our deeds.

Consider the following passages:


James 2:14-20 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that r]">[r]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Romans 2:6-11 [God] will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Matthew 16:24-27 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

Matthew 7:21-27
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”


Luke 6:43-46
“No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Luke 13:6-9 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”
There are many more such verses, but the above is a good sampling of the consistent teaching of the scriptures on the matter. That is not to say that there are no scriptures which (when take out of context) would not give the opposite impression. Most such scriptures stem from not reading Paul thoroughly. Note that the Romans 2 passage above is from Paul - he maintained along with everyone else that works are required.

If you disagree with the notion that works are what result in salvation - but would assert that doctrine or something else is what secures one's salvation - please explain your view on the above scriptures and explain why you think differently.
Too many Christians look at salvation as a “not-yet” thing. I think it’s more of an “already” thing. God has already saved us. And those of us who believe that act like it. Nothing “brings” salvation; it’s already been brought.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
That is an incorrect summary. The scriptures are explicit that eternal life is a reward for our deeds.

Romans 2:6-11 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”a]">[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

I did not contradict those verses
 

iam1me

Active Member
Too many Christians look at salvation as a “not-yet” thing. I think it’s more of an “already” thing. God has already saved us. And those of us who believe that act like it. Nothing “brings” salvation; it’s already been brought.

I would say it's the inverse: far too many Christians think that salvation is a done deal, and they don't need to worry about a thing. The scriptures tell us something quite different, constantly telling us to persevere so that we maybe saved.

Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
 

iam1me

Active Member
I did not contradict those verses

You asserted the following:

If you do not do good works, God will not give you the free gift of eternal life.
Works do not earn it -but they are a requirement.

The underlined portion is incorrect. Eternal life is explicitly the reward for our good deeds - that is why in Romans 2:6-11 it says that God will repay us for our deeds.

This is emphasized all the more in the parable of the Sheep & the Goats (Matthew 25:31-46) where Jesus tells us that whenever you did (or did not) do something to help one in need, you were doing it for him. This is the basis upon which eternal life is bestowed - it is not an unearned gift. Mercy, forgiveness, adoption, etc - these are gifts that we did not earn.

It is good and proper to recognize the gift of Christ's sacrifice and the New Covenant - to recognize that we are not forgiven because we earned forgiveness. However, Christians take this to the point of absurdity by removing themselves from the equation entirely, saying that there is nothing left for them to do. They even argue against doing good works - as if you were saying that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient or the like - and so they twist the scriptures and the teachings of Christ to justify doing nothing.

Christ was clear from the get-go...

Mark 8:35 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.

Christ died for all to provide us with the means and guidance for salvation - that narrow path. Yet the churches today have veered off of that path, onto the broad path with lots of pockets. Salvation is easy, they say - nothing is required but your weekly tithe and assent to whatever doctrines we tell you (which won't include actually helping people). Hence they are largely the stooges of the Conservative Party now and back that idiot Trump - even going so far as to compare him to Christ?! They have eyes, but do not see. Ears, but do not hear.
 
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iam1me

Active Member
There is something required of us, trust, in Jesus. Not everyone has this trust, and those who trust go to a feast for judgment, not the second judgment, second death, Hell, so when people emphasize works this much, respectfully, I question whether they trust Jesus or themselves for salvation, which is not actual salvation.

I see easily where it looks like works are required in texts, but how can believing works not be proof texting, since the same Paul said "of grace, NOT OF WORKS"? To be honest, how can I say "the whole of scripture shows works" when there are many verses (over 150) that say trust/believe Jesus for salvation, and quite a few verses that say NOT OF WORKS?

Just think, for example of the OT verses that say trusting God is IT.

Faith in Jesus, faith in God - these are meaningless and cannot save you unless accompanied by corresponding action. Faith without works is dead (James 2).

Paul declares that eternal life is our reward for our good deeds, which God repays us for (Romans 2:6-11).

To be sure - nothing we did or can do can earn Christ's sacrifice or the love, mercy, and forgiveness that we have been shown. You are correct in this. However, you have focused so hard on those passages that you have blind yourself to the equal truth that we are judged upon our deeds. Eternal life is the reward for our own deeds - salvation is contingent upon us.

The churches have twisted the scriptures by focusing on grace to the point of absurdity - effectively dissuading people from Christ's teachings and instructions. They act like to carry out God's will is some form of blaspheme, using twisted logic to argue that to do so is to dishonor Christ and his sacrifice - to render it meaningless. It is a sad state of affairs.

Matthew 16:25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Faith in Jesus, faith in God - these are meaningless and cannot save you unless accompanied by corresponding action. Faith without works is dead (James 2).

Paul declares that eternal life is our reward for our good deeds, which God repays us for (Romans 2:6-11).

To be sure - nothing we did or can do can earn Christ's sacrifice or the love, mercy, and forgiveness that we have been shown. You are correct in this. However, you have focused so hard on those passages that you have blind yourself to the equal truth that we are judged upon our deeds. Eternal life is the reward for our own deeds - salvation is contingent upon us.

The churches have twisted the scriptures by focusing on grace to the point of absurdity - effectively dissuading people from Christ's teachings and instructions. They act like to carry out God's will is some form of blaspheme, using twisted logic to argue that to do so is to dishonor Christ and his sacrifice - to render it meaningless. It is a sad state of affairs.

Matthew 16:25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.

Salvation is described as a gift, and the gifts of God are irrevocable (Romans 6, 8). Christians ARE judged for their deeds on Earth--chastised/Hebrews 12 and for rewards/loss of rewards, but they are not naked and ashamed before the Great Throne of Judgment.

Salvation is a gift. Gifts are unmerited. The gift was given by a dead testator, now resurrected, and may not be returned.

James 2 is the passage I hear most pushing works--but is describing living FAITH and dead FAITH, because FAITH saves with NO WORKS. I've never met a brother who presses works who could explain this passage from Romans 4:

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who DOES NOT WORK but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness...

Paul here quotes David to say someone who trusts Christ WITH ZERO WORKS, WHO DOES NOT WORK, has faith and righteousness, the rest of the quote is "how blessed are those with forgiven sin" from Psalm 32.

ZERO WORKS, not some, NONE.

You feel I'm proof texting because the Bible says salvation is NOT of works and can be had with NO WORKS. Our merciful God saves people on their deathbeds without works, He really does.

He gives us a permanent "indescribable" gift and full assurance. I offer people a 100% opportunity to be saved, not a temporary band aid on a sinner's best efforts.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
You asserted the following:

If you do not do good works, God will not give you the free gift of eternal life.
Works do not earn it -but they are a requirement.

The underlined portion is incorrect. Eternal life is explicitly the reward for our good deeds - that is why in Romans 2:6-11 it says that God will repay us for our deeds.

This is emphasized all the more in the parable of the Sheep & the Goats (Matthew 25:31-46) where Jesus tells us that whenever you did (or did not) do something to help one in need, you were doing it for him. This is the basis upon which eternal life is bestowed - it is not an unearned gift. Mercy, forgiveness, adoption, etc - these are gifts that we did not earn.

It is good and proper to recognize the gift of Christ's sacrifice and the New Covenant - to recognize that we are not forgiven because we earned forgiveness. However, Christians take this to the point of absurdity by removing themselves from the equation entirely, saying that there is nothing left for them to do. They even argue against doing good works - as if you were saying that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient or the like - and so they twist the scriptures and the teachings of Christ to justify doing nothing.

Christ was clear from the get-go...

Mark 8:35 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.

Christ died for all to provide us with the means and guidance for salvation - that narrow path. Yet the churches today have veered off of that path, onto the broad path with lots of pockets. Salvation is easy, they say - nothing is required but your weekly tithe and assent to whatever doctrines we tell you (which won't include actually helping people). Hence they are largely the stooges of the Conservative Party now and back that idiot Trump - even going so far as to compare him to Christ?! They have eyes, but do not see. Ears, but do not hear.
God will repay/reward/recompense for deeds accordingly as he sees fit, but that is not the same as our deeds earning that which God will freely give -he does not owe us those things -we could not rightly demand those things of him.

As written, we are justified by works -not by faith alone.

If you wish to enter life, keep the commandments, but by attempting to keep the commandments we can not save ourselves even from unrighteousness -and we certainly cannot make ourselves live forever. We supply little more than willingness and what effort we can. God must even enable us to turn from sin to any great degree. If we thirst for righteousness, we can begin, but he will satisfy us with it. If we repent, his spirit by which he called us to repentance in the first place will be in us at baptism and laying on of hands of his ministry -which enables us to know and do more than our carnal mind was able.

We must do the good works we can -they are required -and they will be rewarded -but they themselves earn only what good they do -the greater reward is a free gift from God.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You feel I'm proof texting because the Bible says salvation is NOT of works and can be had with NO WORKS. Our merciful God saves people on their deathbeds without works, He really does.
I don't believe in "rocking-chair religion", nor do I believe Jesus ever did. The gospels are clearly a call to action, especially well cited in the Sermon In the Mount and in Jesus' Parable of the Sheep & Goats (Matthew 25).
 

iam1me

Active Member
Why do you believe that #2 is not consistent with scripture?

The scriptures make it clear that eternal life is our reward for good works - in contrast to those who are condemned and punished by being cast into hell/the lake of fire. Jesus tells us that both body and soul are destroyed there.
 

iam1me

Active Member
Salvation is described as a gift, and the gifts of God are irrevocable (Romans 6, 8). Christians ARE judged for their deeds on Earth--chastised/Hebrews 12 and for rewards/loss of rewards, but they are not naked and ashamed before the Great Throne of Judgment.

Salvation is a gift. Gifts are unmerited. The gift was given by a dead testator, now resurrected, and may not be returned.

James 2 is the passage I hear most pushing works--but is describing living FAITH and dead FAITH, because FAITH saves with NO WORKS. I've never met a brother who presses works who could explain this passage from Romans 4:

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who DOES NOT WORK but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness...

Paul here quotes David to say someone who trusts Christ WITH ZERO WORKS, WHO DOES NOT WORK, has faith and righteousness, the rest of the quote is "how blessed are those with forgiven sin" from Psalm 32.

ZERO WORKS, not some, NONE.

You feel I'm proof texting because the Bible says salvation is NOT of works and can be had with NO WORKS. Our merciful God saves people on their deathbeds without works, He really does.

He gives us a permanent "indescribable" gift and full assurance. I offer people a 100% opportunity to be saved, not a temporary band aid on a sinner's best efforts.

You are proof texting because you are ignoring the wealth of scripture that contradicts you - including from Paul, such as Romans 2:6-11. Here are some additional passages that I don't think I have previously cited in this thread:


1 Corinthians 9:24-27 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

1 John 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 2:25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

Furthermore, you have a problem by asserting that faith is the basis for the Judgement: favoritism. What about all the people who never heard of Christ? What about all the people who were not given the Law or the prophets? What about those who were not raised in Christian households? Why should one who was fortunate enough to be raised in a household with the right beliefs be blessed with salvation from the get-go while everyone else is condemned?

This is nothing more than favoritism - which is a sin. There is no favoritism with God.
 

iam1me

Active Member
God will repay/reward/recompense for deeds accordingly as he sees fit, but that is not the same as our deeds earning that which God will freely give -he does not owe us those things -we could not rightly demand those things of him.

No where is eternal life described as a free gift - it is always described as a reward for our own good deeds.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

1 John 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 2:25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

As written, we are justified by works -not by faith alone.

If you wish to enter life, keep the commandments, but by attempting to keep the commandments we can not save ourselves even from unrighteousness -and we certainly cannot make ourselves live forever. We supply little more than willingness and what effort we can. God must even enable us to turn from sin to any great degree. If we thirst for righteousness, we can begin, but he will satisfy us with it. If we repent, his spirit by which he called us to repentance in the first place will be in us at baptism and laying on of hands of his ministry -which enables us to know and do more than our carnal mind was able.

We must do the good works we can -they are required -and they will be rewarded -but they themselves earn only what good they do -the greater reward is a free gift from God.

Eternal life is consistently taught by scripture to be the reward for good works. You are mixing two distinct concepts in scripture: eternal life and forgiveness/justification/mercy/etc. One is a reward for our good deeds while the other is given as a gift. The gift of forgiveness is given to us through Christ - by means of his sacrifice and the establishment of the New Covenant - something we most definitely did not earn. This in of itself - however - does not an individual will be saved. Hence there is still a Judgement and Second Death.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
The scriptures make it clear that eternal life is our reward for good works - in contrast to those who are condemned and punished by being cast into hell/the lake of fire. Jesus tells us that both body and soul are destroyed there.
I know of no scripture that claims that the the body and soul of the wicked would be destroyed. Could you share where you found that information?

Eternal life is a gift from God to the righteous. Righteousness is weighed by the change that has come over the penitent. No one can become penitent without having a personal relationship with Christ.

It is through repentance, observance of sacred ordinances, and living after the example set by Christ that leads us to eternal life.
 

iam1me

Active Member
I know of no scripture that claims that the the body and soul of the wicked would be destroyed. Could you share where you found that information?

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Also, you have a problem if they are not destroyed. For if they are not destroyed then that means that they too received eternal life (or are already eternal?) - which is supposed to be the reward for those who do good.

Eternal life is a gift from God to the righteous. Righteousness is weighed by the change that has come over the penitent. No one can become penitent without having a personal relationship with Christ.

It is through repentance, observance of sacred ordinances, and living after the example set by Christ that leads us to eternal life.

Eternal life is not a gift - it is a reward given for our good deeds. It is what is promised for doing God's will.

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Romans 2:6-11 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

1 John 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 2:25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
 
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Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Also, you have a problem if they are not destroyed. For if they are not destroyed then that means that they too received eternal life (or are already eternal?) - which is supposed to be the reward for those who do good.



Eternal life is not a gift - it is a reward given for our good deeds. It is what is promised for doing God's will.

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Romans 2:6-11 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

1 John 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 2:25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

There are so many more verses which say pretty much the same.

Good works are required -ceasing evil works is required -but salvation is a gift.

EDIT: Those whose works were not good may also receive eternal life after they die when they become willing to do good works....

1 Cor 3:13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 
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74x12

Well-Known Member
Eternal life is not a gift - it is a reward given for our good deeds.
:confused: I'm sorry but that's not Biblical. You can't just say something that clearly contradicts the scriptures. (2 Timothy 1:9)

It is what is promised for doing God's will.
True, but I think you're missing the point. The entire act of salvation is by grace of God: from beginning to end.
 
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