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Featured Works vs Doctrine

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by iam1me, Aug 26, 2018.

  1. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Actually, I believe the answer hinges on what is meant by "salvation." That's a word that is thrown out there a lot but that most people don't stop to try to understand. We are all "saved" from the permanence of death. 1 Corinthians 15:22 makes that pretty clear. It states: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Therefore, Jesus Christ made life after death a reality for everyone who has ever lived -- not just for evangelical Christians, not just for Christians as a whole or just for members of other Abrahamic faiths. Every Buddhist, Hindu, Jain, pagan, agnostic and atheist will be resurrected. You don't even have to "confess Christ" to be raised from the dead, much less perform any "good works" or anything else.

    A great many Christians believe that only a few souls will be saved, and of course they will all be Christians. They believe that everyone who is not a Christian (or sometimes even the right kind of Christian, i.e. part of the right denomination) will be sent to hell to suffer throughout eternity. To me, that's utter nonsense.

    All who are resurrected will live again forever; the resurrected body is no longer subject to death, old age, illness, injury or anything of the sort. But living forever is not what the Bible means when it speaks of "Eternal Life." Eternal life refers to the fullness of salvation, and I would agree with you that our works are definitely going to be taken into account when we are judged. Jesus told us that He will reward every man according to his works. How any Christian can argue against that is beyond me. The greater one's commitment and faithfulness, the greater the reward. Paul spoke of varying degrees of glory that the resurrected may attain. This is what I personally believe.
     
  2. Prestor John

    Prestor John Well-Known Member

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    The LDS Church believes and teaches that salvation occurs in two parts,

    1.) Salvation from physical death (a bodily Resurrection) which is promised to all and will be universal in it effect no matter how good or evil they are.

    2.) Salvation from spiritual death (sin) which is conditioned on one's the personal relationship with Christ based on worthiness and repentance.

    Everyone (save those who commit the unpardonable sin) will eventually be forgiven of sin, however, based on what we become in this life (showcased by what we do) we cane receive forgiveness of sins in this life, which can improve our progress to progression.

    If we do not live a life of righteousness and repentance in this mortal life, we will still have opportunities to change our behavior in the spirit afterwards, before the Resurrection and Final Judgment, but the process will be impaired without the benefit of our physical body.

    So, in a nutshell, everyone will be Resurrected and will one day be forgiven of sin, but when these things occur depends on how we choose to live our lives.
     
  3. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    Only faith counts by the New Covenant, along with repentance.

    Works however stand as a witness that "your faith is correct". Without works no one (including yourself) can tell whether your faith is the faith demanded by the covenant or not. Faith without works is dead simply means if your faith is not reflected by your works, it's a dead faith.

    That said, "Works" usually refers to how well you obey the laws. It has the meaning that even under the New Covenant, you shall not sin at will. If you continue to live by faith, you will go towards holiness. How holy you are may thus reflect how good or strong your faith is.
     
    #43 Hawkins, Aug 28, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
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  4. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    A good way to summarize it is this....

    If you do not do good works, God will not give you the free gift of eternal life.
    Works do not earn it -but they are a requirement.


    We were cut off from eternal life because of evil works.
    Allowing evil works into eternity would cause unimaginable misery. When God perfects us, he will allow us to create without conflict throughout the the universe.

    While a person might do some good works, however -and then be known by God to be willing -even salvation from sin is a gift from God.
    The carnal mind is enmity with God. Only with the gift of God's own spirit can we be empowered to overcome sin and keep both the spirit and letter of the law.
    It is defined as a spirit of power, love and of a sound mind. It is first with one as God calls them -and then in one if they truly repent and turn from sin themselves as able -are baptized -and God grants it at the laying on of hands of his ministry.
     
  5. Agent

    Agent Member

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    He who endures to the end shall be saved.
    The prevalent messages are: salvation by faith or salvation by meditation.
    The peace and safety message is what is being preached by our daily prophets. "No destruction shall come upon you" Churches post up on their parking lot signs: "Jesus is coming back" Pack your bags here! While they are preaching peace and safety destruction comes upon them like woman in travail.
    [9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 cor 6
     
  6. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    The Holy Spirit will cause miracles and such to happen. These are of course Gods doing, not ours. These aren't what we are judged on.


    Matthew 25:31-46
    When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

    37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

    40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.

    41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

    44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

    45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

    46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”​
     
    #46 iam1me, Aug 29, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  7. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    SInce Jesus died for the sins of man, and since you believe nothing is required of us - why then is there a Judgement and Second Death?

    You are looking at isolated proof texts rather than considering what the whole of scripture says on the topic. Even Paul says that eternal life is our reward for our good works.
     
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  8. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    We are supposed to be spiritual Jews.

    Romans 2:29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

    Romans 11:11-21 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
     
  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    The Holy Spirit will cause miracles and such to happen. These are of course Gods doing, not ours. These aren't what we are judged on.


    Matthew 25:31-46
    When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

    37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

    40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.

    41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

    44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

    45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

    46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”​
    [/QUOTE]

    The scripture quotes and bold doesnt help. Thats like bolding something in foreign language and hoping I get it by making it stand out (or yelling to a deaf person: can you hear me)

    Can you rephrase that scripture. Im not sure of your point. That, and I think you missed a quote function?
     
  10. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    I did mess up the quotes - fixed now :)

    That scripture is talking about the Judgement, and what we are judged upon. Of those that are rewarded, it says these are those who helped those in need. When they saw someone hungry they fed them, when someone was naked they clothed them, etc. Love is the most important concept in Christianity - so much so that God is said to be love. So those who lived their lives doing good - loving the Lord and one's fellow man in truth and action - these are recognized and rewarded. When someone helps another in need - Jesus equates that to doing these things for him.

    Similarly, Jesus equates NOT helping those in need, equates harming them, to doing those things to Him. These greedy, selfish individuals lived their lives for themselves, and so are punished.

    Thus eternal life or death are determined by our deeds in life.
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Yes... I never said otherwise. Can you narrow down which quote of mine you're referring to?
     
  12. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    I'll have to disagree with the idea that everyone gets eternal life. In the first place, eternal life is explicitly taught to be the reward for good deeds (example: Romans 2:6-11). In the second place, Jesus tells us that hell is a place where God destroys both body and soul:

    Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
  13. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    I wasn't correcting you - I was just explaining the verse since you said you were unclear about what it said.
     
  14. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    I agree with #1. I think it would be difficult to reconcile #2 with the scriptures, however. The scriptures are also consistent in teaching that a persistent life of good works results in eternal life, whereas a sinful, selfish life results in punishment and death.
     
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I'm lost on what we are comparing or contrasting. The Bible does say works and salvation are interelated. I see them as part of a salvational lifestyle.

    That's how I would see them. Outside of that, I forgot our points. Not good at keeping up of top much time passes. Not intentional just a brain thing.
     
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  16. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    Faith is a gift. Someone born in a non-Judeo/Christian community should not be condemned for not being born into the right family. Nor should one who was born into a Judeo/Christian culture be rewarded for being born into the "right" family - which would be favoritism. Since people naturally tend towards the belief systems they are raised with - it would be very problematic if this were the basis by which we are judged. Afterall, favoritism is a sin.


    James 2:9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

    Colossians 3:25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.

    Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism


    Doing good, on the other hand, is a universal concept that all are capable of.


    Romans 2:12-16 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
     
  17. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    That is an incorrect summary. The scriptures are explicit that eternal life is a reward for our deeds.

    Romans 2:6-11 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”a]">[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
     
  18. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    We are supposed to be Spiritual Jews, with the Law written on our hearts and minds.
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Most people are looking at the fleshly nation of Israel to inherit the blessings of the Kingdom, but according to Paul, they are in for a bit of a shock...

    "Circumcision is, in fact, of benefit only if you practice law; but if you are a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 If, therefore, an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the Law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision, will it not? 27 And the physically uncircumcised person will, by carrying out the Law, judge you who are a transgressor of law despite having its written code and circumcision. 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people." (Romans 4:25)

    Paul called Jewish and Gentile Christians "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) showing that God had changed the definition of what it meant to be "Jewish". It was obedience to the Law and its principles that made a person's worship acceptable yo God no matter what nationality they are.

    "God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” (Acts 10:34-35)

    It isn't a gift for which one has only birth or faith to qualify....it requires obedience to all of Christ's teachings and works to back them up.

    As James wrote....."So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.
    18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works. (James 2:17-18)
     
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  20. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    There is something required of us, trust, in Jesus. Not everyone has this trust, and those who trust go to a feast for judgment, not the second judgment, second death, Hell, so when people emphasize works this much, respectfully, I question whether they trust Jesus or themselves for salvation, which is not actual salvation.

    I see easily where it looks like works are required in texts, but how can believing works not be proof texting, since the same Paul said "of grace, NOT OF WORKS"? To be honest, how can I say "the whole of scripture shows works" when there are many verses (over 150) that say trust/believe Jesus for salvation, and quite a few verses that say NOT OF WORKS?

    Just think, for example of the OT verses that say trusting God is IT.
     
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