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Works Salvation?? Revelation 20:12

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Shemiyah, Aug 20, 2019.

  1. Shemiyah

    Shemiyah New Member

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    Revelation 20:12

    Ok so here we are at the judgement, and everyone in this verse is judged by what they had done. Not judged by their faith or professed belief. Is this works salvation. Then you look in Romans 2:6 and Romans 2:7 and you see that there is a judgement according to works. Paul even asserts that those who do good, patiently hope for immortality. Is this works salvation?

    Ecclesiastes 12:14

    Please let me know what you think.
     
  2. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    In a sense it is; but keep in mind that Revelation 20:12 is the second resurrection. Not the first one. Whoever is in the first resurrection would have already been saved at this point. They are not saved by "works" but instead by "fruitfulness". God wants people to be fruitful by the holy Spirit He gives. So if you receive the Spirit; then God expects you to have fruit to show for the investment He has made.(Galatians 5:22-23)

    However, there is no doubt that works are involved. As no fruit of the Spirit is perfected without works. For example faith without works is dead. (James 2:20) And we should not just love in word but in deed also. (1 John 3:18) So if people who have been given the holy Spirit want to be fruitful then they do works to perfect and bring out the fruitfulness. But as Jesus said, without me ye can do nothing. There is no fruit of the Spirit without the holy Spirit. That's how it's all salvation by unmerited favor from God. Which is salvation by grace.

    As for the people in Revelation 20:12. That's another story. This is all the dead. They don't necessarily have the Spirit and they will be judged differently. That doesn't mean all will be lost. God is very merciful after all. In fact no one can be saved without God's mercy. So no one will be saved by anything but grace.
     
  3. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
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    Confusing, ain't it?
     
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  4. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Technically no. Faith and works go together. But, you can have works without faith, which is ego-driven. That ego-driven "salvation of works" imagines that it's what we do that saves us, not who we are on the inside. But who we are on the inside, will naturally of its own bear fruit. You don't "do fruit", you bear fruit. You don't "do works" to get something. You have something, and therefore you do something.

    One can have the outside, but without the inside, it's not a reflection of who we truly are. It's a facade.
     
  5. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Combination of faith and works.
    James 2:14-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Faith Without Works Is Dead."
    14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 CIf a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

    This is a tough passage for me to deal with here in American culture.
     
  6. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    Its probably nothing like that. You are either dead in your sins or alive in Christ. Eventually everyone is expected to come to Christ, hence death gives up the dead that are in it for a final judgment after much patience on the part of the saints. Making this about an afterlife is probably not the intention. Consider how wacky the symbols are if you literalize them -- a lake of fire, for instance or a woman wearing the sun for clothing. Don't pack too much viking afterlife stuff into it. This about morality, and its about doing the right thing.
    Hence its religious.

    "They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. " (Rev 12:11 NIV) That's opposite of trying to obtain an afterlife. If you view repentance as resurrection then you can accept this. If you don't then you're going to have a very difficult time making sense of Revelation 12. I know its confusing, but the passage here directly alludes to self denial.
     
  7. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    @Shemiyah

    I see Faith is worthless without deeds. Hollow, pointless.

    Faith required deeds and likewise deeds require us to acknowledge God, the giver of all that is good.

    Regards Tony
     
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  8. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    No, it is not.

    Works, whatever they may be are not the means of salvation, but rather the inevitable results of salvation.

    These verses were not intended for the general population, who will be judged by followers of Christ/not a follower of Christ.

    Bill Gates could spend his entire fortune on doing wonderful things for the poor and needy, if he isn´t a Christian, it means nothing in his judgement.

    I on the other hand will be judged on my works, i.e. the fruit of my Christianity. This doesn´t mean necessarily, major endeavors.

    It means how did my Christianity display itself. A smile to someone at the right time could be a work, or helping me, now that I am up there, across the street could be a work.

    I may be reminded in my judgement of someone along side the road with their car hood up, and I was in a hurry, and didn´t stop to help.

    Salvation is a free gift that comes by faith alone. With it comes the Spirit to guide and lead.

    A surly angry Christian who never smiles, never compliments, and just complains may very well have not had the right heart condition in the first place to be a real Christian. Of Course only God decides, no one else.

    If you cut your calories intake by 50%, it is inevitable that over time you will lose weight.

    If you truly are a Christian, it is inevitable that the Spirit is active in you, and your behavior reflects this.
     
  9. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    Then many that are not Christain already have a great salvation. As many do selfless deeds for all humamity, far beyond what many Christains choose to do.

    You have said above, they do them as they are the result of salvation?

    Regards Tony
     
  10. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Yes, C
     
  11. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Believers already have salvation and eternal life through Jesus and His work on their behalf. They will receive rewards for their works done in Christ.

    Only those who reject salvation offered in Christ are judged and punished to various degrees according to their works.

    What is the Great White Throne Judgment? | GotQuestions.org
     
  12. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    No, it's still specific, in other words, works , in one context, faith, in another context, the faith should be guiding the 'works', and you have to know what the works are. In other words, unless you have read and studied the bible in a detailed manner, just 'general works', is merely guessing at things.

    It's like judaism, except you don't have a rabbi.
     
  13. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    To say salvation is through Jesus alone is making a judgement. It is also saying one knows God's will for each person that has not accepted Jesus.

    Then we can consider what is the 'Name' we are to look for to find God and the offered salvation, that name is 'Christ'. This is who Peter said Jesus was.

    Regards Tony
     
  14. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Of course it is making a judgement, the same one that Christ made. Gods will for every person is that they be saved through Jesus Christ.

    There is no other way
     
  15. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    Says shmogie

    Personally, I do not read the Bible with that interpretation.

    Regards Tony
     
  16. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    I don't believe you actually can read it in that manner, except jesus 'no one comes to the pater except through me '. But, notice how that is sort of different
     
  17. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    As is your right
     
  18. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    I think its based on a bad interpretation of some gospel passages. All of the enlightenment period gains are of no benefit when people let others lord it over them and be authorities on the bible. Its because a lot of people claim to be authorities and to have correct views of the scriptures, mostly rooted in the acceptance of a runaway authoritarian preaching style. I could hang up a shingle and live very well. Its a way to make money and get respect and to live off of donations. You just say what you think people want to hear, assure them that you are genuine and correct that they are, too; and then you rake in the money.
     
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