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Featured Works or Grace

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Acer21, Oct 21, 2018.

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  1. Baptism

    1 vote(s)
    7.7%
  2. Faith in Jesus is sufficient

    4 vote(s)
    30.8%
  3. Faith plus Works

    1 vote(s)
    7.7%
  4. Must join a Church or Organization

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Must be "better" than before

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Must be a "good person"

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Evangelism

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. other

    9 vote(s)
    69.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I understand it. I see human sacrifice as barbaric. Many Pagans killed people to atone for their sins to please the gods. I understand OT animals since animals are also food and something of value given to atone for sins.

    If it were the "final animal" that, I get. But final human??

    I can't imagine jesus laying out on the table and people during him up and eating him after the meal is blessed. But, well, some denominations do it. It's a perfect example of Christian faith, consuming gods flesh and blood as a literal atonement.

    I understand it because I used to be Christian. I don't speak as other christians because I wasn't around christianity until almost recently. I was Christian for four years of my adult life. Since I read the bible and understood the faith, that knowledge and experience gave me reason to leave the faith. It has its pros but it's human sacrifice is a huge turn off.

    I hope you arent one to think only christians can understand the bible. It's a very easy read for the point. Not all are drawn to human sacrifice, so..
     
  2. Acer21

    Acer21 New Member

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    hmmm...your answer regarding faith vs. works is an interesting one, given that you seem to be expressing a complete lack of faith in Christ.

    I would argue that you were never a Christian if you do not believe in Christ for salvation.
     
  3. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    Not by any means.

    On a human it would not be, especially a Jewish male who is required to have it done, but on an animal sacrifice it would be considered a blemish because the animal would be damaged in some way and therefore not appropriate. Not that any of this matters, because a human sacrifice is not acceptable anyway.

    First you have to prove the resurrection; second you have to contend with all the other resurrecting god stories and what makes them any less gods.
     
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  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I knew it. I wanted to be honest but didn't want to throw the conversation. Not all christians have the same language. Thinking and reflecting on how christ is and what you learn makes it more personal than trying to talk like the rest. It's highly less personal when you have to conform to others just be to considered Christian. I'm glad the denomination I was in did not see one Christian over another. That's totally off and never did like that.
     
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I was enjoying the convo to. Shrugs.
     
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  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    @Rival

    Wah? This is the farthest I've gone without judging. Guess I put my chickens in before it hatched (or however you say it)
     
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  7. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I believe the scriptures indicate that faith alone in Jesus Christ's sacrificial death/resurrection is sufficient. Works do not earn, nor keep salvation, yet good works result in the lives of those saved by Jesus.
     
  8. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    It depends upon what is meant by "salvation." Jesus Christ's Atonement "saves" all who have ever lived, in that all will be resurrected. Death is not the end for anyone. Those who have accepted His sacrifice on their behalf will not be made to pay the price for their sins, provided they have repented of those sins. They will be judged clean and worthy to enter Heaven in the First Resurrection, which takes place at the beginning of Christ's millennial reign here on Earth. The rest will be made to pay for their own sins until the end of the Millennium, by which time they too will accept Him and be allowed to enter into Heaven. All will be rewarded "according to their works." So works are not necessary to be "saved" from the otherwise permanence of death, but will determine one's heavenly reward. It is only logical that the greater the commitment and faithfulness to Jesus Christ, the greater one's reward will be.
     
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  9. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    The way i look at this is that Jesus does the saving. He paid the price.

    This sacrifice is credited to everyone, even the ignorant and even those who know about it, but dont understand or accept it.

    This sacrifice will save the ignorant, the ones who dont understand it, nor accept it, and will save those who do accept it.

    The only ones it will not save are those who dont repent of there evil ways.

    Let me illustrate: solders go to war to purchase freedom for the people of our country. The people of the country recieve the benifit of that sacrifice whether they accept it or not, whether they understand it or not, whether they know why the war even began or not.

    The only ones that dont benefit from this are those who commit crimes within the country that was made free from the sacrifice, because then there freedom will be taken away by being put in prison.

    So, what did Jesus purchase? Saving or freedom from what? Hell and the second death and the power of sin.

    Thats how i illustrate it.
     
  10. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Faith is the horse of salvation that should carry the cart of love works. You don't have the horse of salvation pushing the cart of love works.
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever heard the term ( A person actions speak louder than words)

    So it is with works ( by a person works will speak louder than words)
    Works and Actions are exchangeable
    By a person Actions will speak for itself.
    By a person works will speak for itself

    By a person actions will speak who they are.
    By a person works will speak who they are.
     
  12. Acer21

    Acer21 New Member

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    Are we talking about the Christ of the Bible, or somebody else?
     
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I was reffering to this. Its highly rude to assume or state I was never christian especially only after a few posts. Religion is a highly personal issue. A lot of things I learned from christianity helped me understand by the belief and the spirtuality I uphold today. I dont mind talking about the bible, christ, and god; I dont like my points and opinions judged based on whether I was a real christian rather than the topic itself.

    I didnt mind conversing with you until you made tha comment.
     
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  14. Acer21

    Acer21 New Member

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    Unveiled Artist,

    Part of being a Christian is being in a relationship with God and Jesus. When you were a Christian for (4) years, did you have such a relationship? If so, why did you break communion with God and Jesus?
     
    #34 Acer21, Oct 22, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
  15. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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  16. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    I thought about voting for "good person", but that's debatable. If you can fill a need, fill it. If you can stop harm, stop it. Even villains can be nice to people. The Way is about doing what needs to get done as nature or God requires. You can be Light Side or Dark Side and still follow the Way, especially if you realize there is no light or dark, only the Way.

    Oswald Cobblepot in Gotham is a good example of using both sides to reduce harm and increase profitability and safety and such. It's a shame he was ousted as Mayor because Jim Gordon was so stuck on himself and his biases. #OswaldforPres

    Scripture also doesn't seem to have a good handle on what is actually beneficial and what isn't.

    Maybe the author misinterpreted what happened (given that nobody who wrote the texts was there, of course). The saved thief might have just done so out of desperation. The jerk thief probably did it because he could. Speculation, I know, but the saved thief was humble and acknowledged what happened. Is he saved because Jesus got his ego stroked at that moment or is he saved because his heart was in the right place anyway?

    Indeed. Like, Vegeta got mad because Goku went Super Saiyan before him, the Prince of Saiyans. He tried to be nice like Goku, but he only mastered it when he accepted himself.

    Not per the Jewish characteristics of one. However, just because Jesus wasn't the anointed in a political sense doesn't mean he didn't have another mission to accomplish. You are a messiah if you give aid to a homeless person. I am a messiah if I say hi to someone who's had a bad day. You don't require divinity to be someone's savior.

    "My bad."

    Says the tribe dependent on food offerings to survive 'cause they weren't allowed to have jobs. They can't live off of "thoughts and prayers". God can, but they can't. All ancient temples involved being tourist traps to siphon off major parts of the economy on people who weren't really doing anything useful.

    But Jesus WAS blemished, physically and mentally. I don't care that the bible claims he was sinless. It is an unsupported assertion.

    Main Idea: Jesus was sinless.
    Supporting Detail: He dishonored his parents, breaking a major commandment, punishable by death.
    Supporting Detail: Well, he broke the Sabbath, breaking a major commandment, punishable by death.
    Supporting Detail: Wait, I'm getting to the sinless part. He, uh, assaulted people and didn't turn the other cheek.
    Supporting Detail: He was racist and had to be guilt-tripped into helping non-Jews.
    Supporting Detail: C'mon, God, help me out here. He, uh, vandalized/stole things that weren't his.
    Supporting Detail: He called people fools after saying the people who did that would burn in hell.
    Conclusion: You know what? Screw it.

    Why? Other people woke back up and two guys never died technically in the first place. Does anyone we bring back by CPR count as gods? Also, do you have Jesus' medical report? Can you prove he was definitely dead and not just assumed so? Remember that we've put bells in graves before up to at least the 19th century or whatever because apparently dead doesn't always mean dead.

    If the priests had been into that kind of thing, humans would've been acceptable. All the sacrificial stuff is just to pacify the priests. This is why Ankhenaton tried to shut down every temple but his. This is why Jerusalem forbade any other temple on its scale. God is omnipresent, right? Why should He care? Answer: He doesn't, and it's all about manipulating people to let priests leech off them.

    There is not a single ritual or location that God actually REQUIRES. Jesus and Samuel and perhaps a few others also noted this. Sacrifices like that have always been a political farce, which is why Samuel is more upset about Saul doing sacrifices. It was never about the meat, but about power.

    But does Christianity follow Christ? Remember the entire religion is based off the whims of people Jesus griped didn't understand him. It became quickly, like, his body was barely cold, the same problem with the biblical versions of the Pharisees: legalistic, pathologically attached to straining for gnats while swallowing rotting camel carcasses.

    I would argue empathy. :)

    Don't know about Unveiled Artist, but I have not abandoned God nor Jesus. I have abandoned the religion that clearly has no interest in listening to (E)ither.
     
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Human blood being the highest sacrifice isnt considered so in many religions. The highest sacrifice could be just giving up their religion or their god(s) for the wellbeing of another. THAT is true sacrifice. When you give up something, say a life, you dont expect to get it back. There are no strings attached. Human blood is human blood.

    Jesus didnt sacrifice himself because

    1. He didnt die
    2. He didnt give up what he most value: his relationship with god

    Any strong devotee can make the gesture of doing for others in his or her death. Usually, these people are considered saints, prophets, etc because of their devotion and direct connection to god. But they wouldnt consider themselves as a savior to all. That is only through the creator.
     
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  18. LiveByFaithNotSight

    LiveByFaithNotSight The Art Of Conversing

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    As a Jehovah's witness its False that we Preach Works equal Salvation. we have a balance view on Works and Faith. Explain by Apostle Paul and James.

    Our considering the context also helps us to understand what some have claimed is a disagreement between the apostle Paul and James. At Ephesians 2:8, 9, Paul says that Christians are saved by faith, not by works. He says: “You have been saved through faith . . . not owing to works.” James, however, insists on the importance of works. He writes: “As the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” (James 2:26) How can these two statements be reconciled?


    Considering the context of Paul’s words, we find that one statement complements the other. The apostle Paul is referring to the efforts of the Jews to keep the Mosaic Law. They believed that if they kept the Law in all its details, they would be righteous. Paul pointed out that this was impossible. We can never become righteous—and thus deserve salvation—by our own works, for we are inherently sinful. We can only be saved by faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice.—Romans 5:18.

    James, however, adds the vital point that faith in itself is valueless if not supported by actions. A person who claims to have faith in Jesus should prove it by what he does. An inactive faith is a dead faith and will not lead to salvation.

    The apostle Paul was in full agreement with this, and he often mentions the kinds of works that Christians should engage in to demonstrate their faith. For example, to the Romans he wrote: “With the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.” Making a “public declaration”—sharing our faith with others—is vital for salvation. (Romans 10:10; see also 1 Corinthians 15:58; Ephesians 5:15,21-33; 6:15; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:23-25.) No work, however, that a Christian can do, and certainly no effort to fulfill the Law of Moses, will earn him the right to everlasting life. This is “the gift God gives” to those who exercise faith.—Romans 6:23; John 3:16.

    Is anything more than faith needed in order to gain salvation?


    Eph. 2:8, 9, RS: “By grace [“undeserved kindness,” NW] you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast.” (The entire provision for salvation is an expression of God’s undeserved kindness. There is no way that a descendant of Adam can gain salvation on his own, no matter how noble his works are. Salvation is a gift from God given to those who put faith in the sin-atoning value of the sacrifice of his Son.)

    Heb. 5:9, RS: “He [Jesus] became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.” (Italics added.) (Does this conflict with the statement that Christians are “saved through faith”? Not at all. Obedience simply demonstrates that their faith is genuine.)

    Jas. 2:14, 26, RS: “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” (A person does not earn salvation by his works. But anyone who has genuine faith will have works to go with it—works of obedience to the commands of God and Christ, works that demonstrate his faith and love. Without such works, his faith is dead.)

    Acts 16:30, 31, RS: “‘Men, what must I do to be saved?’ And they [Paul and Silas] said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” (If that man and his household truly believed, would they not act in harmony with their belief? Certainly.)
     
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Why make it so complicated?

    Since faith is a foundation and source of righteous works, why not consider in expression works side by side with faith in salvation?

    How are righteous works separate from salvation but without it, faith (the source of salvation) means nothing?
     
  20. LiveByFaithNotSight

    LiveByFaithNotSight The Art Of Conversing

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    well I'll ask the question is your faith Alive if it doesn't move you to do righteous works? is saying I have faith proof you of your faith or is James correct in saying faith without works is dead? Faith must be alive my friend. I'm not making it complicated cuz I didn't write the bible but in my opinion this balance view the bible teaches is very simple and easy to understand when having proper context.
     
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