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Work out your salvation

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Bdkimmel61, Jun 24, 2004.

  1. Bdkimmel61

    Bdkimmel61 Member

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    In todays mainstream churches I see a leaning towards accumulation and fine living.

    I have attended only a few of the mainstream churches because of the falseness (as I see it) of the message.

    My question is in connection with the instruction for us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling as in Phil. 2:12.

    Question: After having been saved why is it that our salvation must be worked out? It would seem to me that the working out of our salvation is in the belief of the heart and once established need no further address.I am convinced that our salvation was obtained on the cross by way of only one sacrifice.How is it that we must work out our salvation then?
     
  2. Tom Davidson

    Tom Davidson Member

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    Because man is still free to sin.
     
  3. Bdkimmel61

    Bdkimmel61 Member

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    Okay. That causes another question though.

    Does G_D know our every deed,word and thought before we make or say them?
     
  4. Tom Davidson

    Tom Davidson Member

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    Yes and No.

    No, because then the deed, word or thought would necessarily pre-exist our making them, in which case we would not be free, we would be subject to some order of predestination. In fact we'd be like clockwork people, or better, and 'organic program' that runs and can do nothing other than what is programmed.

    Yes, because God has defined the limits of our possibilities, as He has determined all things. Therefore every deed, word and thought pre-exists as a possibility, but we are free within those constraints, in the same way we are free within the confines of the laws of nature.

    Sin, for example, was a possibility with no actuality in Eden - it didn't exist, and the Primordial couple were without sin. By their free act, sin was introduced into the world, and the world was changed.

    The question revolves around the idea of 'freedom'. A dog is free, for example, but conditioned according to its nature. The human is the only creature who can actually examine his own nature, and who can therefore do something 'un-natural', that is counter to his nature, which is what sin is.

    In the end the only real freedom is the choice to accept or deny God.
     
  5. Bdkimmel61

    Bdkimmel61 Member

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    Not to be combative but a yes and no answer is not factual.

    That answer is appropriate when applied to mans knowledge of anything but not to G_D.Here again is one more reason I do not attend a Church.

    In one breath is a yes and in the next a no for an answer on the omniscience of G_D.G_D HIMSELF does not answer us in a such a manner.HE is not a G_D of confusion.

    Your final statement is that in the end our sole choice is that of accepting or denying G_D. To that I respond whole heartedly with agreement.

    My reasoning is based on Isa.45:7, Pro. 16:4,G_Ds own admition that HE caused the hearts of men to change and the Psalmists many statements that G_D knows our every breath,word,thought and deed.

    My defense is that which says the G_D I know and trust is in the process of training me according to HIS will for me, which is my most fervrent desire.

    I would ask any who say that Free choice is absolute to answer this;

    Considering that JESUS was foreordained (by HIS OWN WORD) to pay the sacrifice,then:

    ' If G_D ask you to serve HIM by the selling of HIMSELF for 30 pieces of silver would you do it? '

    The point to that queston is that according to JESUSs own words; "If they knew, they would not do this thing.", that no one would willingly sell our LORD and SAVIOR, but!!!!, that according to HIS plan and foreknowledge of the true nature of man prior to the creating of the creation G_D KNEW exactly what man (both as a species and as individuals) would do.

    To say that G_D knows everything and then to say "well not completely" leaves many a seeker without a way of understanding and coming to know G_D.

    As I teach I must consider that (according to the words of JESUS) in my mind,heart and spirit I (we) will never know all.As beings of substance I (we) will always have misunderstanding and debate, but that reason is a gift from G_D and a request from G_D (not in asking but in teaching us) that we must follow backwards to the truth.

    Truth is not something waiting to be found.Truth was,is and will be.
    Truth does not get created or come by way of mans search.Truh just is, as G_D is, for G_D is truth.

    I know that you understand that concept Tom and I write it to say this;

    As 1 John 1:1 says; In the beginning was the word........

    That word was and is all that has happened,been said, been created etc.etc for nothing was created that was not created for HIM,by HIM and through HIM. Even to the invisible which pretains to all thought and prophetic utterance of any nature.

    It is for that precise reason that it is written " work out your salvation with fear and trembling".In so doing we acknowledge that G_D in all HIS sovereignty can do as HE wills with our bodies,minds and spirits.

    HE can use us to sell JESUS for 30 pieces of silver, HE can cause our eyes to be blind, HE can send confusion that we will not see the truth regardless of our desire for all things are a gift by HIM, for HIM and through HIM both visible and invisible.HE can cause us to retain HIS people as HE did with Pharoah, HE can send us out to slay others and the list of HE CAN goes on and on.

    Our choice is in saying, "YOUR will be done" and then allowing, that as flesh, we will indeed fail.

    Does G_D know everything? Most emphatically yes. HE even knows when we will fail after having believed, which is why HE says,Isa. 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.


    The problem we as beings of flesh have is that we cannot give up that right of decision so we maintain that we do have a choice.That only serves to appease our pride in that we have 'decided' to follow HIM when in truth It IS HE that chooses us.

    I have no desire to offend anyone but hope and pray that these few words G_D has revealed to me will at some point have an impact on someones life and surrender to HIS right and mighty will.
     
  6. Tom Davidson

    Tom Davidson Member

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    I agree that 'He chooses us' - but my point is we still have the right to refuse - to deny God.

    Look at the apostles - look at Peter - Christ knew what he would do, but did not stop him, and in the end when Christ said 'feed my sheep' He knew that was the last thing Peter wanted to hear, and he would not force Peter to do so.

    The acceptance or denial of God reflects upon acceptance of his Church - if you deny the church you deny God, for you deny the institution that He founded for man's salvation. It seems a shame that because man is bad you turn away from God (refer to the mote in thy brother's eye). I could easily say that your refusal of the church is your pride - the church is not a place of knowledge, of answers, it is a spiritual medicine and healing.

    If you look to the lives of the saints, they always humbled themselves before God, and before their fellow man.



    Thomas
     
  7. Bdkimmel61

    Bdkimmel61 Member

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    I understand what you are saying brother.I have not turned my back on the church though.When Jesus walked HE spoke against the pharisees.I am amoung many who follow Jesus and have rejected the mainstream organized churches.Our desire is to know G_D, to seek HIM and HIM alone.We do the ministry of helps to the widows and orphans but we do not claim membership in any one denomination.

    I/we do not turn our backs on the church because man is bad, we readily admit that we are also bad.What we do is follow the Spirit.To say that we have turned our backs on G_D because we deny the organized Church seems a bit judgemental considering that, with all the messages being taught in all the different denominations, one has no comparison except that of JESUS to follow.

    We also believe that according to mans agenda the organized church is fast becoming a one world church following those laws established by man so we choose not to serve her but to serve Christ by serving those in need.

    We do not believe that the acceptance of the gay agenda into the church is established by G_D, nor is abortion.

    The Disciples did humble themselves before G_D and man but not to the point where they accepted those laws that are against G_Ds law.In that they were all martyred save John.

    Thomas I am sure that you understand that there are many yet who will be martyred and they will not all be members of the established church.The sad thing is that it will be many of the established church who will be crucifiers of those martyrs.

    Remember that Satan comes at us as an angel of light (truth and knowledge) but he delivers lies that lead many into perdition.I understand that you could say that I/we are following that lying angel of light. I pray you are wrong in that though.

    In following JESUS we do not turn our backs on our brothers Thomas, we seek them out, not to change them but to deliver the message of the cross, not that of mans understanding.

    Sadly, as we deliver the message ( you can read the message if you like at www.tip.org ) we are asked to leave many churches, as we minister to the sick and dying we are also asked to leave many churches.We do not decide to leave, we are asked.The reason, the tax exemption of the church and the profit of the field of medicine.

    The TIP site is a teaching on the discernment of the prophecies of the Rev. in conjunction with the ancient prophets.This discernment disagrees with the teachings of many modern day self proclaimed prophets but does not claim to be a prophetic teaching, only a discernment of what has already been prophecied.

    The book of Daniel has been opened as I am sure you are well aware.TIP is sharing that message not for money, but for truth.It disavows the modern day self appointed prophets and their goal of profits.

    Please avail yourself of the opportunity to visit this site and follow your heart.

    In Christ I serve
     
  8. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    I was in South America a couple of years ago and I came across a young man that had a tiny little Bible with a date scrawled into the back page. I asked him what it was. He said that was the day he was saved. Some people seem to think that a mere expression of faith is enough to forever secure us a place at the right hand of God. THis is an apostate and completely false doctrine.

    Our salvation is not secured in us until our calling and election is made sure; and that happens to very few people in this life. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling because we can always lose the faith God has granted us. We can always turn our backs on Him and go the other way.

    We are ultimately saved by grace, but our desires and actions make us candidates for grace, not a weak profession of belief. We must constantly be pushing forward, growing in the faith and in our righteousness. If not, we are like the seed that falls upon shallow ground. We shoot out our little rootlets, but the stone beneath us stunts our growth and our faith shrivels up and dies.

    Then we serve only to be cast aside. James chapter two paints a comprehensive picture of the role of faith and works in our struggle for salvation. The mainstream interpretations of this chapter (that works are a result of faith, and not a contributing factor) are only rationalizations and weak attempts to reconcile that chapter with the apostate doctrine of salvation by the spiritual lottery of "grace."

    Paul (in Romans) in no way infers that works do nothing for us in an eternal perspective. The free gift he refers to is that of general salvation; the doctrine that sins will automatically be forgiven that arise as the result of genetic disorders, poor parenting and those sins commited before we reach an age at which we can properly distinguish between right and wrong. That salvation is free and it is general. It is the "free gift," but individual salvation (also spoken of in Romans) is available to those who fight the good fight and finish the race. It is available to those that show the kind of faith and hope that Abraham, Daniel, Joseph, Peter and Paul showed. It is not a gaurantee to those who do nothing more than affirm that they will accept Christ's salvation (Thanks a lot, maybe I'll think about you again sometime when I'm in trouble - I'm sure Jesus loves to hear that). How arrogant and presumptuous.

    Our salvation is not a cartificate we get when we believe in Christ. If that were the case there would be no Pauline Epistles (They're already saved, who cares what they do with the church?). Christ would not have had to spend so much time with His Apostles. Everything would be different; and salvation would be a vottery that we didn't even have to pay to enter. We just sit on our butts and hope maybe the powerball will land on our number.
     
  9. spacemantip

    spacemantip New Member

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    I guess I do not understand totally if you are inagreement with or in contention with the original post.The reason for the post is the emphasis in todays church about wealth and healing.

    Paul said, " Praise G_D in ALL things, for this is HIS will for you in Christ JESUS".

    I would take that to mean that even in our weakest moments we can find G_D.As a young man I was raped.That burden created hatred in my heart that lasted for many years.But as G_D so GRACOUSLY does, HE introduced HIMSELF many years later when the timing was RIGHT.From that experience I have learned the act of forgiveness and understanding but only because HE used it for HIS will in my life.

    My point to this is that many who attend church looking for healing are not taught that healing begins in the heart with praise to G_D for our circumstance.They are taught that G_D does not want us sick or poor.That teaching is in error.JESUS said that the blindman was blind for the purpose of showing the GLORY of G_D.HE also said, " The poor you will always have with you".

    Tell me, if a person is born into poor and born into pestilence is that a result of the individuals choice?Or how about the sick and the mentally challenged?Are they guilty of sin before they can make conscious decisions?

    My apologies to all but I get on my soapbox about these issues. :fight: :oops: :cry:
     
  10. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Those that do not have the mental capacity to differentiate between right and wrong will receive forgiveness through the Atonement of Christ. They are not required to fulfill all the things we are. It is the "free gift" that Paul speaks of. We who know the difference must act upon that knowledge.
     
  11. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    May I ask why you keep typing G_D? As a saved Christian, I myself am not leery to spell out GOD. I would rather offend someone else than never let them know about Jesus.
     
  12. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    G_D is used to write Gods name by ortho Jews. even though that is not his name, God does not have one, but many (i believe as a hindu). God is a word used by humans to call him.
     
  13. Bdkimmel61

    Bdkimmel61 Member

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    Peter is an excellant choice on your part that supports my contention.Peter did in deed deny Christ, but he was not rejected by Christ.He was in fact one of the mainstayers in the building of the Church of the Body of Christ.HE did not lose his salvation which is exactly what I am saying.After his denial he grew, he matured as a believer and became a significant follower of the Christ he trusted.

    My entire point is that GRACE is sufficient.HIS words, not mine.JESUS did not expect us to be perfect in the realm of flesh, HE knew us to be perfect for HIS cause though.

    The reason HE chose Israel to be HIS people was? Because they would betray HIM and HE knew that. It was in that betrayal that HE shows HIS completeness in forgiving the most hated nation of HIS creation. As observers of HIS love and forgivness we recognize that that we too, dispite our failings, can be loved and cherished by the Creator of the Universe AT AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL.

    In making the assumption that we can use free will we make the mistake of believing and teaching that we have free will to choose HIM. BUT HIS words were, " NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THE FATHER COMES TO HIM FIRST.

    I understand that that at that point we teach that this is when we are free to make a choice.That seems obvious but!!!!! it is also written that HE KNOWS the names of those who will be saved and those who will not.HE KNOWS the names of all those who will be martyred. It is a difficult understanding to be sure but MY BELIEF is that GOD THROUGH THE POWER,KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING of HIS HOLY SPIRIT is in deed in complete control. READ JOB AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.
     
  14. Bdkimmel61

    Bdkimmel61 Member

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    Working out ones salvation in fear and trembling is to say that 'in not knowing how GOD will use you (Judas Escariot, Pharroah, Satan etc etc) one can only hope that HE will not use you in the realm of doing those evils that harm.Their are evil spirits of the lord;
    (1 Sam 16:15 KJV) And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

    (1 Sam 16:16 KJV) Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.

    (1 Sam 16:23 KJV) And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

    (1 Sam 18:10 KJV) And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand.

    (1 Sam 19:9 KJV) And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

    and so in working out our salvation we acknowledge to GOD HIMSELF that HE can do as HE wishes with us.I don't know about others but I know that I believe but at the same time I pray, " Lord please do not use me as a Judas Escariot" because I fear the reality results.HOWEVER, if that is the LORDS choice for me in HIS plan then I submit to HIS will.

    I ask myself, Would I sell JESUS for money (the churches do you know) and I want to say NO! most emphatically NO, bu then the questions arises, "Would mankind find salvation were it not for the crucifixion?" It was ordained, it must take place and JEDAS had to do it.
     
  15. Bdkimmel61

    Bdkimmel61 Member

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    Some say Judas had a choice? To that I ask was/is JESUS a liar?

    HE said Mark.14:18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.

    Did JESUS make this statement as a prophecy or as a question? Next, concerning Judas he said;Mark 14:20 And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.
    21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

    JESUS did know of that man, HE spoke it and it must be done.JESUS HIMSELF said that HE chose the twelve knowing one of them to be the betrayer.IF JESUS knew, then how can it be said that JUDAS had a choice?The woe that awaited the man Judas was one of suicide, but can anyone say that in his remorse Judas did not recognize the horror which he had done and THAT is why he hung himself. Which of you would want to do the same? Where Judas is concerned did he believe that JESUS was the Messiah? Scripture clearly shows that he did.JESUS did not say that Judas would suffer in the bowels of hell.HE said simply woe unto him, we as humans with our fintie understanding assume that to mean Judas would burn in hell but it does not follow that a loving, forgiving GOD would send a soul to hell when that soul did in fact serve according to GODs plan.BE it evil or not.In fact if one defines the word evil it will be quickly be recognized that evil is none other then that which is NOT according to GODs plan. I quote Isa. 45:7 and Proverbs 16:4 as my support.
     
  16. Bdkimmel61

    Bdkimmel61 Member

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    I learned that in witenessing to Jews it is best to become a friend to them.They do not believe it is acceptable to write out the name of GOD without offending GOD.If it offends you that I write that way then I submit to your offense and will spell HIS name out.
     
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