Woo, Pseudoscience and the limits of relativism

[Heloise]

I had a Wiccan friend criticize me for calling Psychics, Astrology and Magic Crystals pseudoscience. He argued that we can't prove that these things don't work (we actually can), and there is energy and forces in the universe we aren't aware of yet (perhaps, but these have no bearing on these types of easily discounted New Age woo). Now, the kicker is that he said that all truth is relative to individuals and people should be able to believe whatever they want.

I find that infuriating because it promotes fraud. It's like a drug company giving sugar pills instead of heart medication or companies manufacturing waterproof boots that leak. Is there any way of disputing this, or does it just disintegrate into solipsism? Are neopagans allowed to openly citizens fraudulent, New Age woo? Is this kind of thinking any more rational than the worst religious fundamentalisms?

While there is a lot of rationalist pagans who practice Wicca like ritualized Taoism, there are all kinds of weird elements that seems to discredit paganism because the movement will accept anything (eg. Otherkin, antivaxing, radical Dianics, Burning Times, dowsing etc.). Other religions have schism to filter out the crazies

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I know there is truth in psychics, astrology and crystals. All crystals emit frequency and I have had experience with them. I also had experience with psychics. One who were actually psychic as opposed to the fake ones.

Can I prove it? No I guess I can't. For one thing some abilities can't call be proven on camera. Nevertheless they are real. Some people will also just end up refusing to believe it even if it's right in front of their face. I do find it strange that scientists call it pseudoscience even though many scientists back then also studied what some would call pseudoscience, like alchemy, telepathy, magic, ect. Like Da Vinci, Newton, George Washington Carver who all practiced it and openly admitted it, but I guess people don't like to bring that up for some reason.

All 3 of those things are very real. Need proof? Experience it like I did. That will be your proof.

 

[Heloise]

All 3 of those things are very real. Need proof? Experience it like I did. That will be your proof.

Ugh, Placebo effect and confirmation bias. Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[Quintessence]

Heloise, are you Neopagan yourself?

Regardless, I don't think we can leave this topic in a DIR. DIRs are not for debating, and non-members of a DIR can only post respectful questions. Let me know how you'd like to proceed.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Ugh, Placebo effect and confirmation bias. Correlation does not equal causation.

Um except it isn't.

There is no placebo effect here. All of it's real. The stuff that you mention are anyway You can believe that metals and synthetic crystals play a part in science and minerals and herbs can heal others but for some reason crystal healing is beyond your grasp? I don't get that. Not that it matters because I know for certain these things are very real. But one isn't going to have proof handed to them. You have to search for it. Some things can't even be proven directly. But then when people think of magic, they think of hollywood magic, where real magic doesn't work that way anyway. These so called pseudosciences are real. But hey scientists have never been wrong right? Some scientists said mercury was good for your brain. Doesn't mean they were right.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Um except it isn't.

There is no placebo effect here. All of it's real. The stuff that you mention are anyway You can believe that metals and synthetic crystals play a part in science and minerals and herbs can heal others but for some reason crystal healing is beyond your grasp? I don't get that. Not that it matters because I know for certain these things are very real. But one isn't going to have proof handed to them. You have to search for it. Some things can't even be proven directly.

In what way have these things been proven to you?

 

[Heloise]

In what way have these things been proven to you?

Power of suggestion. Scientific studies have shown that crystal believers will believe in the effects of crystals whether they are given real or fake crystals

http://m.livescience.com/40347-crystal-healing.html

 

[Corthos]

Ugh, Placebo effect and confirmation bias. Correlation does not equal causation.

Hmmm... Forgive my ignorance, but why would being able to actively use and control placebo effects be a dismissible thing? If anything, that seems like a very strong argument for the use of magic(k) rituals and objects.

After all, if you could wear a ring with a stone associated with knowledge and learning, and actually experience better performance and studying in school while wearing it, then how is that insignificant? Now, I understand that it won't work in all occasions (you can't placebo cancer away), but if we can benefit from such a thing in a tangible way, then why not take advantage of it?... =/

 

[Skwim]

I had a Wiccan friend criticize me for calling Psychics, Astrology and Magic Crystals pseudoscience. He argued that we can't prove that these things don't work (we actually can), and there is energy and forces in the universe we aren't aware of yet (perhaps, but these have no bearing on these types of easily discounted New Age woo). Now, the kicker is that he said that all truth is relative to individuals and people should be able to believe whatever they want.

Actually, your friend is correct, psychics, astrology and magic crystals are not pseudoscience, but not for the reason he cites. They fail as pseudoscience because none of them rely on or even involve any facet of science. Astrology probably comes closest, yet because it only uses the movements and relative positions of celestial objects as a means for divining information about human affairs and terrestrial events it still fails as a science; pseudoscience or otherwise.

It is true that people should be able to believe whatever they want, but "So what?" would be my question. It has nothing to do with the veracity of his claims, which I assume is why he took exception to your remark. In main, his remarks, as you've related them, are all too typical of people who believe in such things, and certainly don't deserve the credibility he alleges.


.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Hmmm... Forgive my ignorance, but why would being able to actively use and control placebo effects be a dismissible thing? If anything, that seems like a very strong argument for the use of magic(k) rituals and objects.

After all, if you could wear a ring with a stone associated with knowledge and learning, and actually experience better performance and studying in school while wearing it, then how is that insignificant? Now, I understand that it won't work in all occasions (you can't placebo cancer away), but if we can benefit from such a thing in a tangible way, then why not take advantage of it?... =/

It's a complex issue, but my personal philosophy when it comes to such things is that being aware of and understanding the real source of something is ultimately far better than misapplying the causal agent to something else. In other words, believing a crystal gives you some form of benefit may enable you to harness or take advantage of that benefit, but understanding that the source of that benefit actually comes from a psychological state rather than the crystal itself allows you greater insight and ability to take advantage of that benefit. If nothing else, it at least enables you correctly attribute a causal quality to something you can actually directly control and understand in a more meaningful and direct way.

 

[Corthos]

It's a complex issue, but my personal philosophy when it comes to such things is that being aware of and understanding the real source of something is ultimately far better than misapplying the causal agent to something else. In other words, believing a crystal gives you some form of benefit may enable you to harness or take advantage of that benefit, but understanding that the source of that benefit actually comes from a psychological state rather than the crystal itself allows you greater insight and ability to take advantage of that benefit. If nothing else, it at least enables you correctly attribute a causal quality to something you can actually directly control and understand in a more meaningful and direct way.

Perhaps... Though, I think that how effective a placebo is depends on how the practitioner feels about his method in applying the effect. For example, someone who's interests are in ancient middle eastern mythology/religions might not find much usefulness in Wiccan practices, where instead they might benefit far more from Natib Qadish practices - especially in regards to something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Horned-Altar-Rediscovering-Rekindling/dp/0738731579

Maybe one could develop placebos into more of a psychological trigger, and activate that placebo on a whim? I don't know... Interesting to think about, though. =)

 

[Heloise]

It's a complex issue, but my personal philosophy when it comes to such things is that being aware of and understanding the real source of something is ultimately far better than misapplying the causal agent to something else. In other words, believing a crystal gives you some form of benefit may enable you to harness or take advantage of that benefit, but understanding that the source of that benefit actually comes from a psychological state rather than the crystal itself allows you greater insight and ability to take advantage of that benefit. If nothing else, it at least enables you correctly attribute a causal quality to something you can actually directly control and understand in a more meaningful and direct way.

The placebo effect might be justifiable except that New Age practices are promoted by charlatans who charge for their services, and spout pseudoscientific explanations which co-op the language of actual science (eg. The "vibrations" of the Law of Attraction, channeling "energy"). These distortions are designed to appeal to ignorant people and also serve to distort "real" science (eg. Quantum entanglement and thermodynamics which are actual science.)

 

[Theweirdtophat]

The placebo effect might be justifiable except that New Age practices are promoted by charlatans who charge for their services, and spout pseudoscientific explanations which co-op the language of actual science (eg. The "vibrations" of the Law of Attraction, channeling "energy"). These distortions are designed to appeal to ignorant people and also serve to distort "real" science (eg. Quantum entanglement and thermodynamics which are actual science.)

Who is one to define what "real" science is anyway?

Magic, psionics, science, it's all about studying the universe we live in. All are very real Just because you seem some fake magicians and psychics doesn't mean they are all fake. I know and met real ones and know for certain it's real

I remember in the Thor movie, I believe Thor had said

"You're ancestors called it magic, You call it science. I come from a world where they are one and the same".

Take it from me, who used to think all that stuff was fake. It isn't. And I know someone is going to demand proof, which I can't give anyway because if I recorded it, you wouldn't believe me anyway. And not all things can be recorded properly anyway. Only thing I can do is share experiences. People need to experience it in order to know that it's real.

 

[George-ananda]

I had a Wiccan friend criticize me for calling Psychics, Astrology and Magic Crystals pseudoscience.

I happen to believe in psychic abilities. Does pseudoscience mean 'not real' in your understanding of the word?

He argued that we can't prove that these things don't work (we actually can),

You can prove psychic abilities don't exist, you claim? Just, No to that.

Now, the kicker is that he said that all truth is relative to individuals and people should be able to believe whatever they want.

I'm not buying his kicker though. I think there are objective facts.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Who is one to define what "real" science is anyway?

The scientific method. If it is used, then it is science.

Magic, psionics, science, it's all about studying the universe we live in. All are very real Just because you seem some fake magicians and psychics doesn't mean they are all fake. I know and met real ones and know for certain it's real

Then can you please answer my previous question and explain how it was proven to you?

I remember in the Thor movie, I believe Thor had said

"You're ancestors called it magic, You call it science. I come from a world where they are one and the same".

Take it from me, who used to think all that stuff was fake. It isn't. And I know someone is going to demand proof, which I can't give anyway because if I recorded it, you wouldn't believe me anyway. And not all things can be recorded properly anyway. Only thing I can do is share experiences. People need to experience it in order to know that it's real.

I find it very suspicious when people claim that something can only be proven by personal experience. I know of no reasonable way that something that can be demonstrated personally without also being able to be demonstrated under reasonable experimental conditions. This is why I am asking precisely how these things were proven to you. If they genuinely can't be demonstrated under the scrutiny of other people, then how exactly can you trust your own conclusions?

 

[Augustus]

The placebo effect might be justifiable except that New Age practices are promoted by charlatans who charge for their services, and spout pseudoscientific explanations which co-op the language of actual science (eg. The "vibrations" of the Law of Attraction, channeling "energy"). These distortions are designed to appeal to ignorant people and also serve to distort "real" science (eg. Quantum entanglement and thermodynamics which are actual science.)

As regards people charging for such services, studies have shown that the more expensive a treatment, the more effect it has. An aspirin that cost you $2 works better than an aspirin that cost you 5 cents. This might well carry over to placebos too.

There is also another benefit to medical placebos. Something like homeopathy is completely harmless and is used instead of conventional medical treatment. Given that most customers are trying to treat minor conditions that will heal themselves eventually, it avoids people being exposed to harmful medicines and treatments.

We have an 'interventionist' culture where we think that we have to do 'something'. Often the best thing to do is nothing and let your body heal itself which it is actually pretty good at. Someone being treated for mild depression, slightly high cholesterol or a common virus is probably better off with a placebo than what the doctor would give them as this would cause more harm than good.

My nephew was 'cured' of a chronic stomach condition as soon as he went to the homeopath. I'm pretty certain this had far more to do with him stopping the medications he was on than the 'remedy' he was given. I think the doctors had been treating side effects of another medication with more medication and exacerbating the problem. 'Scientific' conventional medical treatments are far less scientific than many people believe.

Giving unnecessary medication to people actually harms them, some seriously. For mild problems, keeping people away from the doctor for as long as possible is usually a good thing.

[Obviously this does not relate to serious conditions like cancer or severe psychological issues where proper medical treatment is essential or mild problems that don't go away by themselves after sufficient time].

 

[Erebus]

Maybe one could develop placebos into more of a psychological trigger, and activate that placebo on a whim? I don't know... Interesting to think about, though. =)

To my mind, that's basically what magic is (or at least, it's one way of doing things).

Lighting candles, burning incense and speaking in Enochian aren't going to do anything by themselves. However, when coupled with our natural propensity to seek cause and effect, they can certainly help to enact specific changes in our lives.

Let's go with a classic example. John wants to be more attractive, so he performs a ritual designed to make himself more appealing. Perhaps he makes a pendant or other memento as part of that ritual. Now, whenever he's feeling unattractive, he can look at his memento, be reminded of the ritual and some part of his psyche believes it must have worked. Therefore, he feels more confident in himself. Since he's more confident in himself, hey presto, he's more attractive.

 

[Heloise]

As regards people charging for such services, studies have shown that the more expensive a treatment, the more effect it has. An aspirin that cost you $2 works better than an aspirin that cost you 5 cents. This might well carry over to placebos too.

There is also another benefit to medical placebos. Something like homeopathy is completely harmless and is used instead of conventional medical treatment. Given that most customers are trying to treat minor conditions that will heal themselves eventually, it avoids people being exposed to harmful medicines and treatments.

We have an 'interventionist' culture where we think that we have to do 'something'. Often the best thing to do is nothing and let your body heal itself which it is actually pretty good at. Someone being treated for mild depression, slightly high cholesterol or a common virus is probably better off with a placebo than what the doctor would give them as this would cause more harm than good.

My nephew was 'cured' of a chronic stomach condition as soon as he went to the homeopath. I'm pretty certain this had far more to do with him stopping the medications he was on than the 'remedy' he was given. I think the doctors had been treating side effects of another medication with more medication and exacerbating the problem. 'Scientific' conventional medical treatments are far less scientific than many people believe.

Giving unnecessary medication to people actually harms them, some seriously. For mild problems, keeping people away from the doctor for as long as possible is usually a good thing.

[Obviously this does not relate to serious conditions like cancer or severe psychological issues where proper medical treatment is essential or mild problems that don't go away by themselves after sufficient time].

Placebos are a good solution for hypochondriacs and I agree that it's often better to let more minor ailments run their courses ( especially ones like the common cold which cannot be cured).

However, woo is often used as a simple solution to complex problems, both medically and in other facets of life (eg. Law of Attraction).

We have posited that the success of these treatments is mainly due to a placebo effect. However, when the woo doesn't work, the charlatan can place the blame solely on the victim: they were secretly doubtful and undermined the magic/healing/whatever on a subconscious level or they just "didn't do it right" and need to try again.

This means that no matter what the outcome, the charlatan is always right.

The reality is complex problems - epilepsy, debt, severe depression, cancer, bad backs, unfaithful husbands - don't have easy solutions.

When real medicine doesn't work we blame the medicine; when fake medicine doesn't work we blame the patient.

 

[Quintessence]

Out of curiosity, Heloise, do you also find credit cards or electronic money transfers infuriating because they promote fraud?

 

[Heloise]

Out of curiosity, Heloise, do you also find credit cards or electronic money transfers infuriating because they promote fraud?

That is a false analogy. Money is quantifiable. It can be used to acquire goods and services.

Medicine used and dispensed improperly can cause addiction and adverse reactions. The chemical action of real medication is knowable and quantifiable

Both these things are impersonal mechanisms which can used for either "good" or "evil".

Energy healing is neither. It is inherently fraudulent because it states that something that does not actually exist is being transferred. Any positive or negative effects of this non transfer are mere coincidence.

Real energy is measurable and quantifiable (typically in joules), like money. According the the first law of thermodynamics, energy cannot be created or destroyed in a closed system. A person cannot create energy. They can only transfer it from one person to another. This energy is must be quantifiable (heat, motion etc.)