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Women rights in Christianity?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by flysky, Sep 28, 2005.

  1. Faint

    Faint Well-Known Member

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    I'm curious about Christ's stance on his Father's ideas that women are unclean during their menstral cycle, and that they are property of their husbands. Also that whole idea that if a girl is raped and doesn't scream, she should be stoned to death (I forget which page that's on--maybe one of y'all remember?), or, in a slightly different rape situation, that she must marry her attacker. How do these kinds of things promote women's rights?
     
  2. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    I have no clue what you're talking about. If you want to know God's opinion on menstrual cycles ask him. I don't think he cares enough about it to tell me. It sounds important to you so he might tell you if you ask nicely.
     
  3. Faint

    Faint Well-Known Member

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    No, he did tell you--either in Numbers or Deut. I think--somewhere in the Torah. I was hoping that you or another Christian might remember the specifics since it is from your religion. Also, I was wondering how you could possibly interpret such blatant misogyny as good for women's rights.
     
  4. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for telling me what my religion is BUT YOU'RE WRONG. You've never met me. You have no idea about what my views are. You don't even know that I believe the Bible to be 100% correct. Please refrain from telling my what I believe because it only weakens your reputation and makes you look silly when I tell you you're wrong.

    I'm not going to even take the time to research your ridiculous accusations because its NOT PART OF MY RELIGION. The only thing I'll tell you is that the law of Moses was fulfilled through Christ. Since you're an expert on my religion you probably already knew that. I don't follow the law of Moses. This debate was entitled "Women's rights in Christianity" not Judaism.
     
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  5. Fatmop

    Fatmop Active Member

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    Ephesians 5:22-23 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife."
    Wow! So, to a woman, her husband is like God!
     
  6. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    I would say this only applies if the husband is leading righteously and not in cases of unrighteous dominion.
     
  7. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    For someone who hates God so much you sure do read the bible a lot.
     
  8. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    More to the question, what rights don't Christian females have?
     
  9. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Hi Fatmop,

    I suspected that this is where this thread was headed. Yes, the Bible, OT and NT, is very chauvanistic. Archaic concepts from a past age. As our civiliztion has expanded, so have the roles of men and women expanded. Jesus did however say that it was more like a union of two people becoming like one. This was not a chauvanistic concept but it was not represented in society the way it should have been. As a male growing up, sometimes I resented the fact that I was expected to do the dirty hard work all of the time because it was the man's job. Didn't get any respect for it either. The gripe can go both ways.

    But really, do you feel like you are bound by this archaic notion of women being subordinate? Women dominate the colleges and have great opportunities nowadays. Do you think that there is still some kind of inequality to fight? I would be interested to know what you think about this.
     
  10. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I was googling and i found these verses

    do these rules valid until now or it was only at that time in the past? because i see that nowdays many christians respect women alot so i got confused when i saw these verses :bonk:

    warning: what you will see now is not mine and there is no even a single word from me but from the website i found when i searched in Google.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Let us look at the following Verses in the Bible: "If a man takes a wife and, after laying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, 'I married this woman but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,' then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof [how do you think they would do that?]that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl's father will say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity.' Then her parents shall display the cloth[the father would literally stick his two fingers covered with a piece of cloth into his daughter's vagina before she gets married and keep that bloody cloth for as long as his daughter is married]with before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 22:13-18)"

    Here is a more clear translation from Hebrew Resources: "The girl's father and mother shall produce the evidence of the girl's virginity before the elders of the town at the gate. And the girl's father shall say to the elders, "I gave this man my daughter to wife, but he had taken an aversion to her; so he has made up charges, saying, 'I did not find your daughter a virgin.' But here is the evidence of my daughter's virginity!" And they shall spread out the cloth before the elders of the town. (From the New JPS translation, Deuteronomy 22:15-17)"

    According to the Talmud, the cloth should be "A cloth of less than 3 square finger-breadths. (From the Talmud, Eruvin 29b-30a and Succah 16a)", and before it is being used, it should be "soft, woolen and clean. (From the Talmud, Niddah 17a)"

    The thing that we all must know is that the father in the Bible has full control over his daughters. Let us look at few quotes from Talmudic and Biblical resources:

    The father has the right to force their daughters into marriage: "The father has the obligation to marry off his daughters. (From the Talmud, Kiddushin 29a, 30b)", and "Marrying off one's daughter as soon after she reaches adulthood as possible, even to one's Slave. (From the Talmud, Pesachim 113a)"

    The father even has the right to sell his daughter as a servant (slave girl) to other men: "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. (From the NIV Bible, Exodus 21:7-8)"

    "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 21:9)"

    "...and the birth of ANY daughter is a loss. (From the New Jerusalem Bible, Ecclesiasticus 22:3)"

    "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a MALE child: then she shall be unclean SEVEN DAYS; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying THIRTY THREE days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a FEMALE child, then she shall be unclean TWO WEEKS, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying SIXTY SIX days. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 12:2-5)"

    1-This is only some of what i read and this is the link.

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/fathers_rape.htm


    2-The lust for virgins and the degradation of non-virgins in the Bible's OT and NT:
    http://www.answering-christianity.com/lust_for_virgins.htm


    3-"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 22:28)"
    http://www.answering-christianity.com/que10.htm


    4- Adultery punishment in the Bible's Old and New Testaments:
    http://www.answering-christianity.com/bible_adultery.htm


    5- Leviticus 12:2-5, if a woman gives birth to a baby boy, then she becomes unclean for 7 days. But if she gives birth to a baby girl, then she becomes unclean for 14 days.
    Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."


    Why a priests daughter be burnt in fire just because her father is a priest if she decides to act like a whore? Is this fair?
    Should it make a difference whether or not a girl's father is a priest or not?

    Ecclesiastes 25:22"Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die." (from the Catholics Bible) Women in the Bible are considered evil !!!. ​

    Ecclesiasticus 22:3"....and the birth of ANY daughter is a loss" (From the New Jerusalem Bible. It's a Roman Catholics Bible); Roman Catholics today form more than 75% of the Christians population throughout the world. ​

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/women.htm

    6-"If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband's brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 25:5)"

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/widows_protection.htm

    7-Polygamy in the Bible:
    http://www.answering-christianity.com/ntpoly.htm


    8-1 Corinthians 14:34 "women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says."
    http://www.answering-christianity.com/christian_feminists.htm


    9-Inheritance in the Bible:
    Let us look at "If a man dies and leaves no son, turn his inheritance over to his daughter. (Numbers 27:8)"

    So in other words, women (daughters, sisters and mothers) don't inherit anything if a man (son) is present.
    http://www.answering-christianity.com/inheritance.htm


    10-rights of divorced women.
    Mark 10:11 "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her."

    Mark 10:12 "And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

    Luke 16:18 "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."
    http://www.answering-christianity.com/hell_bible.htm
     
  11. flysky

    flysky Member

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    WOW this was surprise to me and i would like to have explaination for this from our christian friends
    5- Leviticus 12:2-5, if a woman gives birth to a baby boy, then she becomes unclean for 7 days. But if she gives birth to a baby girl, then she becomes unclean for 14 days.

    Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."
    WHY IS THAT?
     
  12. flysky

    flysky Member

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    And Also I want an explaination for

    3-"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 22:28)"

    thank you
     
  13. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    flysky: Are you really interested in the answers? Or are you trying to mock the bible? I just want to know if I should give a lengthy response or a small one.
     
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  14. flysky

    flysky Member

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    I am not trying to mock the Bible, but I am surprised to learn the info that was provided and I would like to get the answers.
     
  15. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Okay, then first you have to realize that the Torah is religious document. It has both a legal and ethical code. In Judaism, there are three things that you must give up your life and not do them. They are idolatry, murder and sexual immorality.

    G-d put us on the Earth to reward us for doing good when we live our lives. G-d being all good, is benevolent and likes to do good, so he puts us here so that we can earn goodness. This means that there are several conditions on our staying on Earth, 1. is recognizing G-d or else there is no point, and 2. living. Therefore we must live in harmony with our fellow man, and propogate to create more people to do good and get reward.

    So back to the three sins,


    Idoltary because that is that basis of the Jewish religion. Judaism bases on the fact that there is but one G-d who has no physical representation, it was completely novel for its time. Therefore when you reject the One G-d, you reject the very thing that gave you life.

    Murder because this is the most blantant disregard for other human life, we cannot allow society to break down to such an extent as to allow murder, you must therefore give up your own life before you do this.


    Finally sexual imorality. I use this broad term because it includes, adultery, incest, beastiality and homosexuality. Basically, the ability to procreate is one of the most amazing things that G-d allows us to do. More that thinking, is the ability to almost create a life from almost nothing. As humans we can appreciate the amazing biological phenominon that is child birth. Furthermore, as humans, we are invested with an extra special spiritual aspect, the soul. Therefore it is said that there are three people in the birth of a child, the mother, the father and G-d. Sex, is not a casul thing, it is one of he most holy actions a person can do, and not to be taken lightly. Therefore it must only be done in certain proscribed circumstances.


    So... looking at the verses you have questions about...



    Well, first off, you just picked two verses and ignored the couple verses in between which talk about the circumcision on the 8th day for men. This is why when a baby boy is born, the women is unclean for 7 days. The Torah allows women to go to their brisk by specifically saying instead of 14 days which it is for woman, it's only 7.




    Well, going back up to what I said, she committed one of the ultimate sins that a Jew can do, she did sexual immorality. In this case, she would be given a trial and if she were to be found guilty, she would be consumed by the fire. You may not like the punishments, but you don't have to live by them. Besides, in Judaism, a woman can't touch a man who isn't her husband or family member. The same goes for men. Children under 9 of the opposite sex can be touched but at 9, the Rabbinical laws go into affect to help make sure we don't break the sexual laws of the Torah. It's hard to have an affair if you've never touched the woman, isn't it?



    The hebrew word used is kiddushin, it doesn't really have a great English counterpart but it basically is a woman who is betrotnal, but it has a much more significant legal meaning. To understand this verse, you must read from Deuteronomy 22:23 to 28.​

    In 23, you have a woman about to be married, who has sex with a man, in that case, they both die. No problem there.​
    In 25, you have a woman about to be married, who cried out for help when the man has sex with her. In that case, ONLY the man is punished since the woman committed no sin.​
    In 28, you have a woman who isn't going to get married, she doesn't cry for help and they both have sex. Well, in that case, they are forced to get marry, and the man, who initiated the sex, will pay to the woman's father. ​

    Do you see the difference in the punishments? Or do you need further explanation on any of them?​

     
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  16. CaptainXeroid

    CaptainXeroid Following Christ

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    This is an excellent point that needs to be emphasized. Frankly any quotes from the Old Testament are irrelevant to this thread, and before anyone says 'Some Christians use Leviticus as proof God hates homosexuals:rolleyes: , ask them if they eat pork. When they say yes, they have identified themselves as hypocrites and false prophets.

    Jesus was asked which of Old Testament laws should be observed and this is what he said.

    As for the Corinthians passages, those are the words of Paul, not of Jesus Christ. Our faith is called Christianity, not Paulian. We should consider Paul's word but should follow Jesus' teaching.
    Frubals to you for this most excellent point.:162:
     
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  17. Faint

    Faint Well-Known Member

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    C.X., I followed the link to Matt. 19, but it doesn't seem to specify that Jesus is overturning all the laws of the old testament. Can you provide another link (or passage) showing that Jesus no longer wants people to live by the rules his father developed in the earlier parts of the book?
     
  18. flysky

    flysky Member

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    So those are Pauls word then why are they in Bible?
     
  19. Faint

    Faint Well-Known Member

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    This is childish. Your profile used to say "LDS", then it said "Christian", now it says Christian (LDS)", so I am not telling you what your religion is, you are telling all of us with your description(s). If these are not valid, why post them? As for your views, clearly I can read them on your various posts on various threads.

    You can tell me I'm wrong all you want. Just back up this claim with some evidence.

    I would say the old testament has a lot to do with your religion--including LDS. I might even go out on a limb and say that it is part of the same Bible where you read about Christ. I bring up these "ridiculous accusations" because they are part of the foundation of Christianity. Think of a Jenga game--remove enough of the pieces at the bottom (the old testament) and the top (Christianity) comes falling down, which is something of the purpose of debate. But I can see how this might confuse you, so I'll simplify:

    According to the OT, God was not a champion of women's right.
    Christ came from (was?) God, and represents him.
    What did Christ do or say (specifics please) to counter God's orignal, apparent misogyny?
     
  20. CaptainXeroid

    CaptainXeroid Following Christ

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    I didn't say that he was 'overturning all the laws of the Old Testament', just that he was emphasizing the commandments and instructing people to love their neighbor as themselves over the Mosaic Law as what they must do to live a righteous life. You and 'the truth' were presenting Old Testament scripture as evidence that God did not believe in rights for women, but you were ignoring Christ's message and the title of this thread which asks about women's rights in Christianity.
    I believe they are there to present some of the history of the founding of the Christian Church. since the New Testament is about the life and ministry of Christ, don't you agree that it would be prudent for Christians to take Paul's words under advise but to follow Christ's teachings?:)
     
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