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women priests in christianity?

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The one thing that most denominations of Christendom miss is the fact that there were no priests officiating in the first century church. The priesthood promised to Christ's disciples was not on earth and the ones chosen for that role could only hold that position in heaven. All reference to that priesthood were future. (Revelation 20:6) Elders were not priests on earth.
No... not all referenced to priesthood is future:

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

"are built up" is present tense. We ARE a holy priesthood.

1 Peter 2: But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people

"you ARE" is present tense

The scripture in Galatians 3:28 that you quoted is a reference to the men and women who were chosen to be priests in heaven by God's Holy Spirit......once they attain to spirit life in heaven, they cease to be humans and so lose their nationality and status, as well as their gender. All are then one in Jesus Christ.
There is nothing that would make us come to that conclussion that I personally can see.

Gal 3: 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Nope... nothing there. All present and no priesthood for later althought I'm sure there will be.

Reference to males in the Bible having all the roles that carry responsibility are a reflection of the gender roles that God assigned in Eden. He created the woman as a "complement" of the man....a helper to assist him in his role. The man was created first and the woman was created for the sake of the man.
Actually, there are many female roles that varry in responsibility including women who governed Israel

And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. No Kings at this point... judges were selected by God. Not only a judge but a prophetess with authority over men.

So women could be ministers, (serving others) fully occupied with the preaching work, but not as earthly priests. All teaching in the congregations were to be done by men. That is because of the headship arrangement.

Headship is mentioned throughout the Bible as God's arrangement. The Patriarchs were men and their women supported them. Women knew their assigned role and only when women assume the role of a man is there problems.

Here is the order of rank according to 1 Corinthians 11:3...."But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God."

So, even Jesus Christ has a head over him.

Since the role of the elders in the congregation was to admonish, correct and teach, it was inappropriate to have women telling men what to do. Women had the submissive role, so men would not be naturally submissive to a woman in God's arrangement.....

"Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account...
" (Hebrews 13:17)

This is why all spirit beings are portrayed as male....including God. It is not a slight on women, because a woman's role is of utmost importance too. The man is incomplete without her. A woman who values her God assigned role, is valued by God. (Proverbs 31:10)

Thus.. the conclussion doesn't have support. IMV.

Addtionally your interpretation 1 Corinthians 11, as I view it, is incorrect in as much as Ephesians gives a more clear picture:

Eph 5:3 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Christ is the head of the spiritual church. The church comprises of both male and female. The spiritual head of the woman is not the man but Jesus Christ. In affairs of the natural, man is the head of the woman and even that is balanced out to the realities that the head is to lay down his life for the wife thus elevating her and prefering.

But definitily the man is not the spiritual mediator for the woman for in Christ there is neither male nor female.

In my view, one doesn't take the position at the expense of other scriptures but rather one finds the harmony so that all scriptures are included. As I view all scriptures, it doesn't support your position. (Not saying you can't have your position, but not in most non-denominatlonal churches)
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
...
In the first century, women played a significant part in spreading Christianity. They preached to others about God’s Kingdom and did things related to that preaching work. (Luke 8:1-3) For example, the apostle Paul called Phoebe “a minister of the congregation that is in Cenchreae.” And in sending greetings to fellow workers, Paul mentioned a number of faithful women, including “Tryphaena and Tryphosa, women who are working hard in the Lord.” He also noted “Persis our beloved one, for she performed many labors in the Lord.” (Romans 16:1, 12)

So women could be ministers, (serving others) fully occupied with the preaching work, but not as earthly priests. All teaching in the congregations were to be done by men. That is because of the headship arrangement....

That is your opinion.

There are no men mentioned around Phoebe - and that speaks volumes.

There is also no - a. She is the Deaconess/Pastor, not - a - diakonos.

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, who is Diakonos/Pastor of the church which is at Cenchrea: (note no men mentioned, - SHE IS the DIAKONOS/Pastor)

Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also. (men are told to assist her in HER BUISNESS.)(SHE is not a helper.)

In case you were wondering - The 1568 Bishop's Bible calls her a Minister, as does the Vulgate.

The word you have in lowercase (minister) is also used for Jesus and Paul.

You use - congregation, - even though it is translated as CHURCH 113 of 116 times that it is used in the NT, including that verse.

The three translated as assembly, - are all in Acts and are non religious settings, and have nothing to do with churches.

Folks are tweaking the verse to make it appear as a lesser role, because of preconceived ideas about women. I find this interesting as Jesus appears to be progressive. He didn't stone the woman to death, - thus not following the religious law. So why not women pastors, apostles, etc. The NT tells us that it is women that fund, and feed him, and house him.

He has female disciples.

Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

Someone pointed out that there had to be females among the disciples, - or saying that would have been a major insult to the men.

And it says he had female apostles.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsfolk and my fellow prisoners, whichsame are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

And it says Jesus was the apostle and HIGH PRIEST.

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

So, it says they had female preachers and apostles.

Women traveled with Jesus.

Luk 8:1-3 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him, And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

We are told a woman, - Mary Magdalene, was given the commission to announce the resurrection.

My opinion is that he bucked tradition and had both male and female disciples, and apostles, and eventually they were Pastors just like the men.

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whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
some christian denominations allow women priests. why? on what ground?

Protestants believe in the 'Priesthood of believers' and so while many groups have male pastors and elders. All believers in Jesus both men and women are priests to God as the letters of Peter say 'you shall be a royal priesthood' referring back to a promise form the Exodus All believers are ambassadors for Christ, men and women, as well as another example. In the case of Priscilla and Aquila in the book of Acts there also may be husband wife teaching teams.

All believers have a meaningful role in the church, I would take a complementation view where
women are in a sense (men as well) priests to God but if you mean teaching or ruling elders that's a different matter

Exodus Overview

Screen Shot 2017-12-07 at 6.52.25 AM.png
 

syo

Well-Known Member
Doesn't actually say that.

It says Adam (first human) was male and female.

One half was split from the original to create a pair that could breed.

We also have other Jewish writings telling us this.

"In the first chapter of Genesis, the Torah chooses to refer to Adam in the plural: God created the man in His image; in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them. And God blessed them. (Genesis 1:27-28)

Why "them"? This was before the creation of Eve!

The Jewish Oral Tradition provides us with a fascinating insight into this grammatical oddity. The first human, it tells us, was really an androgynous being, both male and female in one body, sophisticated and self-sufficient.

But if God had created such a complete human being, why the later separation into two parts, into Adam and Eve? As God is the source of everything, self-sufficiency would be a spiritual defeat. The answer given is that God did not want this first human creation to be alone, for it would then possess an illusion of self-sufficiency. Note that there is no word for "independence" in classical Hebrew. (What we use now, atzma'ut, is of modern vintage.) The concept of independence doesn't exist in Jewish tradition. Aside from God, nothing and no one is really independent. Since we are supposed to ingrain into ourselves that God is the source of everything, self-sufficiency would have been a spiritual defeat. God wanted to fashion the human being into two separate people in order to create a healthy situation of dependence, yearning, and mutual giving. Human beings are not meant to be alone because then they would have no one to give to, no one to grow with, and nothing to strive for. To actualize oneself spiritually, a human being cannot be alone...." Adam masculine and feminine?

"Adam was initially created as a man and woman in a single body. Then this Adam was hewn apart, to become two separate beings.7Now one has become two. Two separate beings, each seeing the other as other. But not so that they should remain two others. Rather, so that those two others should return back together into yet greater union, face to face, with love and passion, and thereby generate life.

That is the divine image: a singularity torn apart and then pulling back together. Not a static form, but a drama; less a resolution than a sustained paradox. In miniature terms, it occurs in the marriage of two human beings. In cosmic terms, it is the drama of G‑d’s desire to fall in love, to give love, to be loved, to create life through love. And to be present in His world through love. ..." G‑d in Love - 1 + 1 = 1

"...But there is another way of understanding the word tzela, based on Midrash (Berei**** Rabbah 8:1; Vayikra Rabbah 14:1); the Gemara (Berachot 61a) and the Zohar (Berei**** 34b-35a; Shemot 55a; 231a).[9] As is known, there are two narratives detailing the creation of mankind—the first in chapter one of Berei****, the second in chapter two. In the first account, according to some commentators, it appears that the Adam was not solely a male, but was rather a being consisting of both male and female halves.[10] In chapter two, according to this explanation, this two-sided human was separated into the two genders, and it is this surgical procedure that is described in the verse.

According to the Zohar, the two top “yuds” that make up the Hebrew letter tzaddi represent this “double-faced” creature originally created by God. Sources debate whether the two beings faced the same direction or opposite directions; this argument forms the basis of the debate between Rabbi Yosef Karo and the Arizal regarding how to properly write a tzaddi.[11]
In Berei**** Rabbah (17:6), Rabbi Shmuel bar Rabbi Nachman understands tzela as “side,” and Rashi and Ibn Ezra (Berei**** 2:21) adopt this approach as well.[12] Rashi, following in the footsteps of the Midrash, supports his claim by pointing out that tzela is used in other places in Tanach to mean “side” as well (Terumah 26:20, 26-27).[13] ..."

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thank you for this excellent post! may i ask you what the scriptures say about lilith?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Thank you for your reasoned response, but I fear you have misinterpreted my meaning.

not all referenced to priesthood is future:

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

"are built up" is present tense. We ARE a holy priesthood.

1 Peter 2: But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people

"you ARE" is present tense

If you refer to Revelation and Jesus' words concerning the foundations of the Holy City that he revealed to the apostle John in vision....

Revelation 21:9-14....
"One of the seven angels. . . . came and said to me: “Come, and I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” So he carried me away in the power of the spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God 11 and having the glory of God..12 It had a great and lofty wall and had 12 gates with 12 angels at the gates, and . . .on the gates were inscribed the names of the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel. . . . .The wall of the city also had 12 foundation stones, and on them were the 12 names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb."

So, who is the "bride of Christ"? This "bride" is described as "a holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God". So it is a symbolic heavenly city...not an earthly Jerusalem in a specific geographical location. In fact, none of its inhabitants are still human. They have all been transformed into spirit beings in order to fulfill their roles as rulers and priests.
This "city" was built on the foundations of the 12 apostles. Why were none of the apostles women? Why were the words of recorded scripture written only by men? It is true that there are many accounts of faithful women contained in its pages, but for the purpose of teaching and being in positions of authority in the congregations....it was always assigned to men. God's headship arrangement was observed. Women had an important place in God's arrangement, but it was never to usurp the role of the males.

Furthermore, the fact that the priests of the great spiritual temple in heavenly Jerusalem are of no specific nationality, status or gender agrees with what Jesus said about those who are resurrected being "like the angels" meaning they are genderless. There is no gender in heaven because gender is for reproduction and no creature in heaven is a reproduction. They were all individually created.

In the first century, only men occupied teaching positions in the congregations. Women were used for teaching outside in the preaching activity in which they all shared, but not in the congregations.

When Peter said....1 Peter 2:5 " Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." He was speaking symbolically because there were no women priests in the earthly temple arrangement. Priests in Israel could only come from one tribe. And since the physical temple was a "type" of the real temple in heaven, Jesus did not become our High Priest until his return to heaven, there to present the value of his sacrifice to God. (Hebrews 9:24)

Gal 3: 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Nope... nothing there. All present and no priesthood for later althought I'm sure there will be.

Because all of the first Christians were of the "heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) they were all "bought from the earth" to be rulers and priests with Christ in heaven, but because they are a finite number, the time had to come when the ranks were filled. (Revelation 14:1-3) These rulers have to have subjects and they have to have sinners for whom to perform their duties as priests. Who will these be, do you think?

Actually, there are many female roles that varry in responsibility including women who governed Israel

And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. No Kings at this point... judges were selected by God. Not only a judge but a prophetess with authority over men.

Yes indeed, but prophets and prophetesses were not priests. They were conveyors of God's messages to his earthy children. Deborah was a judge but this was not common, and at a time when Israel was in God's bad books. He will use whomever he chooses for whatever reason.

Women made up a large portion of Kingdom proclaimers in Jesus' day.

Thus.. the conclussion doesn't have support. IMV.

I believe the 'big picture' proves that it does.

Addtionally your interpretation 1 Corinthians 11, as I view it, is incorrect in as much as Ephesians gives a more clear picture:

Eph 5:3 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Christ is the head of the spiritual church. The church comprises of both male and female. The spiritual head of the woman is not the man but Jesus Christ. In affairs of the natural, man is the head of the woman and even that is balanced out to the realities that the head is to lay down his life for the wife thus elevating her and prefering.

I don't think I implied otherwise. As members of the congregation, Christ is the spiritual head of all, but still there were no women teaching in the congregations. Those who were anointed by holy spirit later at Pentecost did not then automatically become teachers in the congregation. Nothing changed about their status in the flesh....that would come later when they were resurrected to immortal heavenly life. Because they become genderless spirits, all then become one in Christ with no gender rules to dictate anything to differentiate them.

f5e4950364dd83ab6bbc196f8b0e9830.jpg


In the physical temple, illustrated above, you will notice "The Court of Women" (on the right) but they were not permitted to enter the parts of the temple reserved for the priests. (on the left) Individual portions of the Temple areas were sectioned off for a reason. The Israelites knew the rules and kept them.

But definitily the man is not the spiritual mediator for the woman for in Christ there is neither male nor female.
No one said any different. In the flesh there is gender and with gender came rules. Women have an important role in God's arrangement...but they were never to dictate to men as teachers in the congregation on earth.

In my view, one doesn't take the position at the expense of other scriptures but rather one finds the harmony so that all scriptures are included. As I view all scriptures, it doesn't support your position. (Not saying you can't have your position, but not in most non-denominatlonal churches)

I don't think we can take one scripture to override the authority of others either. They must all be compatible, otherwise our interpretation is wrong.

The apostle Paul wrote:I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but she is to remain silent. (or calm) 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.”
(1 Timothy 2:12, 13) He also wrote "Man is not out of woman, but woman out of man . . . Besides, in connection with the Lord neither is woman without man nor man without woman. For just as the woman is out of the man, so also the man is through the woman; but all things are out of God.” (1 Corinthians 11:8-12.)

This does not mean that a woman is to be completely silent at a meeting of the Christian congregation. She is to be silent in the sense of not getting into disputes with a man. She is not to belittle his appointed position or endeavor to teach the congregation. Men have been given the assignment of presiding over and teaching the congregation, but women add much to Christian meetings by participating in them in various ways.

This is how we view the situation.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That is your opinion.

And you are voicing yours....correct?

There are no men mentioned around Phoebe - and that speaks volumes.

There is also no - a. She is the Deaconess/Pastor, not - a - diakonos.

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, who is Diakonos/Pastor of the church which is at Cenchrea: (note no men mentioned, - SHE IS the DIAKONOS/Pastor)

Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also. (men are told to assist her in HER BUISNESS.)(SHE is not a helper.)

In case you were wondering - The 1568 Bishop's Bible calls her a Minister, as does the Vulgate.

According to Romans 16:1-2 (ASV) "I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church that is at Cenchreae: 2 that ye receive her in the Lord, worthily of the saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever matter she may have need of you: for she herself also hath been a helper of many, and of mine own self."

Read what it says...not what you want it to say. You have a great knack for twisting scripture.

Phoebe was "a servant" (diakinos) which literally means "one whose feet are dusty in the service of others". As there was no "clergy" class in the first century, this did not distinguish Phoebe as anything but a helpful servant of God whom Paul praised for her efforts. She was one of the "saints" chosen by God to serve in his heavenly temple with Christ. But on earth, she was a woman who was well aware of her place in God's arrangement.

The word you have in lowercase (minister) is also used for Jesus and Paul.

Yes, all who served God in specific roles within the congregations were called "servants". Jesus is called God's "holy servant". (Acts 4:30)

You use - congregation, - even though it is translated as CHURCH 113 of 116 times that it is used in the NT, including that verse.

The three translated as assembly, - are all in Acts and are non religious settings, and have nothing to do with churches.

What do you think a congregation is? The "church" was the people congregated together in whatever location was convenient...it wasn't the building. The first Christians met in the homes of their fellow believers. They were still a church.

Folks are tweaking the verse to make it appear as a lesser role, because of preconceived ideas about women. I find this interesting as Jesus appears to be progressive. He didn't stone the woman to death, - thus not following the religious law. So why not women pastors, apostles, etc. The NT tells us that it is women that fund, and feed him, and house him.

He has female disciples.

Of course he had women disciples....that is not in dispute. A woman's role was not lesser, but different. Woman were to have a supporting role in the congregation and in the family. (Like a corporation or government always has a vice president in case there is a problem, both can work on a solution together)

This was not an excuse to exercise chauvinism or dictatorship however. Respect was to be given to a wife who knew her place and served God within those parameters assigned by him. Humility prevents a woman from usurping the male role and taking on the responsibility given to men. God never gave her that right. She has a full share in the service of God and is content to do her utmost within that assignment. Women who act outside of their role will never prosper spiritually because they will not have God's blessing. There were no human women priests in Bible times and there are no genuine ones today. Women who have been chosen to go to heaven will lay aside their gender in order to become priests in the Kingdom of God...but not while they are in the flesh.

And it says he had female apostles.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsfolk and my fellow prisoners, whichsame are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

And it says Jesus was the apostle and HIGH PRIEST.

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

So, it says they had female preachers and apostles.

You make me smile....it says no such thing. "Greet An·dronʹi·cus and Juʹni·as, my relatives and fellow prisoners, who are well-known to the apostles and who have been in union with Christ longer than I have."

Both were men apparently as no known woman was ever called an apostle.

Do you know what an apostle is? It simply means "one sent forth" so there were many apostles, but the 12 were the foundations upon which Christianity was to grow after Jesus left the earthly scene. Jesus became our High Priest when he returned to present the value of his sacrifice to God. (Hebrews 9:24)

We are told a woman, - Mary Magdalene, was given the commission to announce the resurrection.

My opinion is that he bucked tradition and had both male and female disciples, and apostles, and eventually they were Pastors just like the men.

Jesus had the correct view of women. But as a devout Jew, he abided by his Father's laws with regard to gender. The announcement of his resurrection was kind of a test for the males of that time who often discounted the words of women. When they checked out what Mary said for themselves, they found she was telling the truth.

Since Paul's words are unambiguous, women were never to become teachers in the congregation. (1 Corinthians 11:8-12) They were fellow workers at the side of the apostles and in serving others in the congregations....but teachers only outside the congregation.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
thank you for this excellent post! may i ask you what the scriptures say about lilith?

Most people would probably say nothing, as the full stories are outside Tanakh.

However - she actually is mentioned in Tanakh, Jer 50:39, and Isaiah 34.

Lilith is a very interesting study.

Isa 34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl (ya‛ănâh) also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.

Isa 34:12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.

Isa 34:13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.

Isa 34:14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl (lı̂ylı̂yth) also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

Isa 34:15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.

This is very interesting as the owl is associated with Inanna, Records from the 4th millennium BCE say Inanna’s grandmother is Nammu, the primordial Goddess of the Sea. The Babylonians knew Her as Tiamat.

Go to this page to see Inanna-Ishtar with her owls -
Burney Relief - Wikipedia

The SATYR and Owl Goddess connections is very old. And a temple to Pan has been discovered in Israel.

"The female was attached to the side of the male until after Adam named all the animals. Then God cast Adam into a deep slumber, and severed the female from Adam's side. God adorned her like a bride, and then brought the woman to Adam" (Koltuv 8). It is touched on further in the Zohar at Zohar I 34b, which states, "I have found it stated in an old book that this female was none other than the original Lilith who was with him and conceived from him" (from Koltuv 8). While this reference at Zohar I 34b definitely introduces a contradiction between whether the androgynous Adam consisted of Adam and Lilith or Adam and Eve, a reconciliation of these passages is not necessary to this study. "

"When Lilith saw this she fled, and she is now in the cities of the sea, and she is still intent on injuring mankind. When the Holy One, blessed be He, destroys wicked Rome, and it becomes an eternal desolation, He will bring up Lilith and settle her in the ruins, because it will be desolate forever. This is the meaning of 'Lilith shall repose there, and find her place of rest' (Isaiah 34:14). (The Wisdom of the Zohar 539-540)"

"Kohut identifies Lilith with the Parsee Bushyansta, and the Arabic translators render the word in Isa. xxxiv. 14 by "ghul," which is identical with the "lamia" of the Vulgate. In the Talmud, however, there is nothing to indicate that Lilith is a vampire. The Arabians, on the contrary, are said to regard Lilith, under the form of Lalla, as a "holy dame" (Schwab, "Les Coupes Magiques et l'Hydromancie dans l'Antiquité Orientale," p. 11). The name "Lilith" is found also on amulets with terra-cotta figures" (idem, "Coupes à Inscriptions Magiques," p. 62). http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=421&letter=L

"Female demon. Of the three Assyrian demons Lilu, Lilit, and Ardat Lilit, the second is referred to in Isa. xxxiv. 14. Schrader ("Jahrb. für Protestantische Theologie," i. 128)takes Lilith to be a goddess of the night; she is said to have been worshiped by the Jewish exiles in Babylon (Levy, in "Z. D. M. G." ix. 470, 484). Sayce ("Hibbert Lectures," pp. 145 et seq.), Fossey ("La Magie Assyrienne," pp. 37 et seq.), and others think that "Lilith" is not connected with the Hebrew "layil" (night), but that it is the name of a demon of the storm, and this view is supported by the cuneiform inscriptions quoted by them. It must, however, be assumed that the resemblance to the Semitic "layil" materially changed the conception of Lilith among the Semites, and especially among the Jews."

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/ Great source.

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whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
That is your opinion.

There are no men mentioned around Phoebe - and that speaks volumes.

There is also no - a. She is the Deaconess/Pastor, not - a - diakonos.

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, who is Diakonos/Pastor of the church which is at Cenchrea: (note no men mentioned, - SHE IS the DIAKONOS/Pastor)

Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also. (men are told to assist her in HER BUISNESS.)(SHE is not a helper.)

In case you were wondering - The 1568 Bishop's Bible calls her a Minister, as does the Vulgate.

The word you have in lowercase (minister) is also used for Jesus and Paul.

You use - congregation, - even though it is translated as CHURCH 113 of 116 times that it is used in the NT, including that verse.

The three translated as assembly, - are all in Acts and are non religious settings, and have nothing to do with churches.

Folks are tweaking the verse to make it appear as a lesser role, because of preconceived ideas about women. I find this interesting as Jesus appears to be progressive. He didn't stone the woman to death, - thus not following the religious law. So why not women pastors, apostles, etc. The NT tells us that it is women that fund, and feed him, and house him.

He has female disciples.

Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

Someone pointed out that there had to be females among the disciples, - or saying that would have been a major insult to the men.

And it says he had female apostles.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsfolk and my fellow prisoners, whichsame are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

And it says Jesus was the apostle and HIGH PRIEST.

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

So, it says they had female preachers and apostles.

Women traveled with Jesus.

Luk 8:1-3 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him, And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

We are told a woman, - Mary Magdalene, was given the commission to announce the resurrection.

My opinion is that he bucked tradition and had both male and female disciples, and apostles, and eventually they were Pastors just like the men.

*


diakonos is not pastor, but servant/deacon
it is not clear if the woman mentioned is acting as influentially as official deacons or an official deacon ... she was noteworthy in whatever her role was. Note that the oldest Baptist denominations allowed men and women to be deacons but only men to be elders and pastors. They would say as most protestants would that all believers are in a sense priests to God and all believers are ambassadors for Christ, both men and women.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
some christian denominations allow women priests. why? on what ground?
Mainly because God shouldn't need a human to be some particular gender to communicate with them. How is it only males can represent God? That's would be strange if that's some rule God makes.
 

syo

Well-Known Member
Mainly because God shouldn't need a human to be some particular gender to communicate with them. How is it only males can represent God? That's would be strange if that's some rule God makes.
all can communicate with god. but only males represent god because god is male.
 

syo

Well-Known Member
Holy Spirit is female.
the holy spirit is neutral. the creation and the church is female. god is male, so the priest is male, and us the worshippers form the female church. the communion is a wedding, the groom is the priest, and the bride is us the church. so in the communion we have male and female wedding.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
the holy spirit is neutral. the creation and the church is female. god is male, so the priest is male, and us the worshippers form the female church. the communion is a wedding, the groom is the priest, and the bride is us the church. so in the communion we have male and female wedding.
If Christ has a father who is the mother?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
jesus as god doesn't have a mother. jesus as human has a mother, Mary.
All that with the male priest is just tradition because the church recognizes that god "transcends the sexes". Even though they were constantly referring to it with chauvinist type distinctions.
 
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