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Women in the clergy

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Green Gaia, Mar 30, 2004.

  1. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Some religions will not ordain women into their clergy. What do you think? Should women be allowed to be clergy?
     
  2. Colin_Admin

    Colin_Admin Member

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    I personally dont care because they are human just as a man is. But you are right it does go against a lot of religions.
     
  3. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    I see absolutely no reason why a woman should not be allowed to be ordained.
     
  4. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Yes, I think women should be ordained. My minister is, in fact, female and brings a sensitivity to religion that I had never felt before with a male minister, (not to say men can't be sensitive, but I have never felt that from a male religious figure before).


    Does anyone know what specifically the Bible says about women's role in the church? Does it apply today? What are other religions attitudes towards women in roles of responisibilty within the religion?
     
  5. Rex

    Rex Founder
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    Corinthians 14:33-35 NAB
    As in all the churches of the holy ones, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church.
     
  6. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    That may be true of a Christian Church... but Maize is Unitarian and attends a Unitarian Church... which takes wisdom from all religions and tries to leave behind prejudices like that one found in the Bible.
     
  7. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Thanks for the verse Rex, I knew there was something like that, just wasn't sure where. Do you think that should still apply today? How much of a cultural influence do you think that "rule" had and if it was influenced by the norms of the way women were treated at the time, should it be upheld today just because it's in the Bible?

    While, I am UU, and we look at the Bible more rationally than literally, and long ago threw out the idea that only men can be ministers, I'm asking to find out what members of other churches and religions who are not as progressive on this issue think. Will we see a Catholic woman bishop in our lifetime?
     
  8. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    While we admitted a long time ago that women CAN be ministers, it still took some time for it to come into common practice. Remember that for a while there in the UU, it was strange, and sometimes even looked down upon (by members OF the UU) for a woman to aspire to the ministry. I think it was around the 1960s and 1970s, although I am not sure.
     
  9. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    True, but I would still say we are more progressive on this issue than most, if not all other religions. In fact, it was the Universalist Church of America that became the first religion to sanction a woman minister, Olympia Brown who was ordained in 1863. Today about 25 percent of UU ministers currently employed in local churches are women, the highest number of any established denomination and including those in training, almost half the ministers in the UUA are women. No change comes about overnight, but I think we're where we need to be with allowing women the opportunity for involvment in church ministry. It's a great and wonderful time we live in. :)
     
  10. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    Aye, I agree.

    Which seems funny to me... at Starr King there were around 75 female students compared to only about 25 male students in one recent graduating year...

    So, if that is one of the major UU schools for training ministers, and most of the students at that school are female AND graduate... what happens to them AFTER graduation?
     
  11. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    I would say because the number of women in the clergy has just been catching up to the number of men within the last few decades. So there are probably many churches out there that has had the same ministers for many years, and they are most likely to be men. And perhaps after graduation some women choose not to go to full ministry and choose to remain in other areas of support instead of heading up the ministry of a church. I don't know really, but those would be factors I would think would impact that number. Maybe you could contact the office of admissions at Starr, I'm sure they keep records of where their students go and perhaps that would shed more light on this.
     
  12. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    Heh, I've been bugging Starr enough over the last week or so. They are probably getting a little annoyed getting emails full of questions from me.

    Though they rarely actually ANSWER my questions... they just give me web addresses!
     
  13. Engyo

    Engyo Prince of Dorkness!

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    This is an interesting topic, over most if not all of the different religions.

    Many Buddhist traditions do not allow women to be ordained. Others do. My wife is currently in training to become a Nichiren Shu minister.

    I am curious about something: Do you evaluate this question in terms of your religion, or do you evaluate your religion in terms of this question?
     
  14. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    I am a woman Interfaith Minister, so I vote yes on women ministers. :) We just had a court trial in the state of Washington. It was over a gay woman methodist minister. She won and maintained her ministry.
     
  15. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    I don't see why not...
    My relig. has no ordained priesthood... those who have a known reputation as spiritual and good people are saught out for advice. Elders are those with the most experince and know the cerimonies best and so they are usually the best to talk with. They are both men and women as both sides have equily important roles to play. Men don't ask about womens medicine and women don't ask about mens medicine... unless your gay, bi, or otherwise transgendered, then you do as creator wishes.

    wa:-do
     
  16. Caiman

    Caiman Member

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    Written by men who wanted to control others, especially women.

    Equality for all, in my opinion, the more women in the clergy the better.
     
  17. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    In Sweden, we even have two female bishops in the Church of Sweden. In the late fifties, I was very much against allowing women ministers, but I today hope that the reason was that it might split the church in two. The debate goes on, and the possibilty/risk of a split is there.

    Personally, I gradually came to the conclusion that ordained clergy had no real support in the Bible, so all genders, sizes, colours, inclinations etc. should be possible.

    One story about the Buddha that I like is, that when he finally by his foster mother was talked into allowing nuns, he said something like "Without nuns, my teaching would have lived for a thousand years. Now it will vanish in 500 years." In spite of the nuns, the religion seems to still be doing quite well, after (probably) more than two and a half millennia.

    Anders
     
  18. blessed

    blessed Member

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    i had to do an essay on it why women are not allowed to be ordained into the catholic church- my essay pointed out that although jesus had no female disciples he had no male priests, i will hunt around for the essay- Lukes gospel supported the role of women. Another arguement was that only a man could ive a true representation of jesus i argued that god is neither male or female anyone with faith can represent god.
     
  19. harold e. rice

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    The idea of banning females from the priesthood and ministry was born in the early Christian Church. Mary Magdalene was thought to be one of Jesus' unnamed disciples and we must remember that she was the first one to see Jesus after his alleged resurrection. She was the one charged with the responsibility of informing the disciples where to meet, and the Gospel of Thomas also gives her a special status with Jesus Christ. The Church had to destroy Mary Magdalene's standing and history so they introduced the idea that she was a prostitute, which can not be found anywhere in the bible.

    The verses in 1st Corinthians was a forgery added to the letter at a later date. The chapter is primary focusing on speaking in tongues and prophecy. If you remove the two verses 34 and 35, you will see how the message continues to flow.
    1Co 14:34
    Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

    1Co 14:35
    And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

    In eleventh chapter Paul tell a woman about her appearance when praying in the church. He never changed his message or love for women.
    He would always greet women where ever he went.

    1Co 11:5
    But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head.

    These or other verses in the Bible that belittle females and are used to keep women suppressed and silent in the church.

    1Ti 2:9
    In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with
    shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
    1Ti 2:10
    But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
    1Ti 2:11
    Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
    1Ti 2:12
    But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    1Ti 2:14
    And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    Most people don't know that there were Prophetess (Females) in the bible days.
    Ex 15:20
    And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all
    the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.
    Jg 4:4
    And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
    [Deborah was also a Judge of Gods people]
    2Ki 22:14
    So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah,
    Ne 6:14
    My God, think thou upon Tobiah and Sanballat according to these their works, and on the prophetess Noadiah, and the rest of the prophets, that would have put me in fear.
    Isa 8:3
    And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz.
    Lu 2:36
    And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser:
    she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

    A SIMPLE ANSWER CAN BE FOUND IN THE FOLLOWING VERSES:
    Ga 3:27
    For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    Ga 3:28
    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
     
  20. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    Galatians 3:26-28
    [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Either Paul was a skitzo or there was a deeper meaning to "the woman being silent in the church". The woman in the Bible symbolizes everything from a harlot to the very church itself in Revelation. Odd that the church would be symbolized by someone without a say in what is going on! We have another quandry!

    Then again, the Bible does say:

    1 Cor. 13:12
    For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

    Time to take off your sunglasses and kick some butt!

    All you ladies out there, you go girls!

    All you men out there....put down your remote controls and learn some scripture! The ladies are going to leave you sucking dust if you don't get with it!
     
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