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Women, Give Us A Break

Skwim

Veteran Member
Because it's all about you.

Nope...it has nothing to do with how they feel about themselves.

It's just about you, because every woman wakes up in the morning thinking, "How can I impress a man like Skwim today?"
If only............................. If only.:(

.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
My fashion sense gets some interesting commentary too.
But on the plus side, I'm easy to spot in a crowd.


Just for fun, I searched for....
"list of most influential fashion designers for women"
The 1st result was....
https://artteca.com/blogs/artteca/20-most-influential-fashion-designers-you-need-to-know
The 2nd....
https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/top-fashion-designers-for-women

Looking at all the women in the lists, I find it hard to believe that women
(context: N Americastan) are so very sartorially oppressed by men.
(The Middle East is a different story, one outside the OP's context.)
And I just read in the news that Kylie Jenner is on her way to being
the world's youngest billionaire. Some fashionista, eh.
The top ten clothing companies and runway fashion shows and their largest owner demographic is overwhelmingly men. The top ten most successful clothing companies in n America are all male CEO and less than a third women board members.

As for fashion design award winners, there was a study done by Allyson Stokes. The Council of Fashion Designers of America, which does the largest fashion show, awarded 98 compared to only 29 women.

It's kind of like how Julia Child and Paula Dean did pretty well for themselves by media exposure and sheer personality but the culinary world had (and to some extent still has) been a sausage fest in more ways than one.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'm all for respecting women, but I've got to go with Skwim on this one. Especially during late night bar rushes at my job, I've seen my fair share of women wearing shirts that are see-through (often with no bras), or just going braless and both jutting out enough to cut glass while also showing off enough cleavage to make the Grand Canyon jealous. With the way some women dress, there's either a hell of a lot of confusion going on as to whether or not they want us to notice them, or... I got nothing. I legitimately cannot see any other alternative for dressing that way. I've even seen women walking around in miniskirts and thongs when it's in the 20's, so it's not an issue of comfort.
For those of us who live in a secular western society, it's wonderful that both men
& women can dress to attract one's intended, & do so without adverse judgement.
We may check each other out, see who is hot, & behave ethically as we seek trysts
(or not). To be a sexually attractive person is not the same as being a sex object.
Yet it appears that many wrongly conflate the two.

I wonder about the view that women who dress provocatively (eg, see thru tops,
Daisy Duke shorts) do so with no intention of attracting men (or women). It's solely
to please themselves? Or they do so because men dictate they dress that way?
I see it as their choice, freely exercised. To complain about male influence would
be to fail to recognize that we all influence each other, & to portray women as weak...
....as victims. I don't see that.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The top ten clothing companies and runway fashion shows and their largest owner demographic is overwhelmingly men. The top ten most successful clothing companies in n America are all male CEO and less than a third women board members.

As for fashion design award winners, there was a study done by Allyson Stokes. The Council of Fashion Designers of America, which does the largest fashion show, awarded 98 compared to only 29 women.
Nonetheless, with all the women designers out there, women
have the option of buying clothing designed by their sistern.
But this isn't closely related to the OP. Women have wide choices
in clothing. They could eschew skimpy dresses, high heels, & other
such come hither type of clothing. Duluth Trading Co has practical,
inexpensive, comfortable clothing specifically for women.
Ref....
https://women.duluthtrading.com/
Here is one great pair of pants for work, play or party....
https://women.duluthtrading.com/sto...omens-work-pants/34700.aspx?processor=content

Is there something wrong with women dressing in a manner
to be sexually attractive to others, men or women?
 
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ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
women have wide choices in clothing.
I never said they didn't. (Although I will say good luck with finding correct fitted women's pants with real pockets at most department stores) So do women in most of the middle east. My point is their choices have negative social consequences no matter what they choose, and that how they make their choices is influenced by a male dominated industry.

s there something wrong with women dressing in a manner to be sexually attractive to others?
Absolutely not. There's something wrong with assuming the motivation for clothing choice, including heels and skimpy skirts, is meant to make you come hither. There's something more wrong by responding to womens dress by calling them sluts or prudish dykes or catcalling. But despite your observation, men are way more critical of my dress choices than women. And men have a larger influence in telling me what I should and shouldn't wear.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I never said they didn't. (Although I will say good luck with finding correct fitted women's pants with real pockets at most department stores) So do women in most of the middle east. My point is their choices have negative social consequences no matter what they choose, and that how they make their choices is influenced by a male dominated industry.
Do you find this influence excessive?
And for women who don't resist this influence,
are they doing wrong by going along?
Absolutely not. There's something wrong with assuming the motivation for clothing choice, including heels and skimpy skirts, is meant to make you come hither.
Do you think that women ever do wear clothing with a "come hither" intent?
And is it possible for men to recognize when this is the case (or not)?
If men correctly judge the intent to attract them, is it wrong to notice this,
& then respond in manner which respects their intentions?
There's something more wrong by responding to womens dress by calling them sluts or prudish dykes or catcalling.
Why bring that up....do you think I'm advocating it?
Or that the OP was?
But despite your observation, men are way more critical of my dress choices than women. And men have a larger influence in telling me what I should and shouldn't wear.
We run in different crowds.
The women I know tell me that women are the harshest fashion critics of other women.
There are seasonal rules, fashion ins & outs, day vs night rules, detailed business
attire rules, etc. (This is in various corporate settings.) Of course, men can be blamed
for that. But I just don't see women as so powerless or brainwashed in their choices.

I know it's a lot of questions, but I don't think I have a fundamental understanding
of your objections.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Is there something wrong with women dressing in a manner
to be sexually attractive to others, men or women?
I don't think there is, personally.
However I will say that I often find myself shopping in the boy's department. They seem to have much more appealing styles and the geek gear seems more available. Which seems a little odd to me, surely in today's society, both would have styles appealing to everyone. What that says about clothing to me at least,
A not enough geek girl clothing designers.
B stereotypes are hard to kill
C men's shirts are made of indefinably more comfortable fabric.

Course my observation is thus. Both men and women are highly critical of women's fashion choices. Men only get surprised stares at wearing flip flops with socks or going nude. Or wearing board shorts outside of Australia. First world problems I know, but come on. Aren't we entitled to a tiny bit of whining here?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't think there is, personally.
However I will say that I often find myself shopping in the boy's department. They seem to have much more appealing styles and the geek gear seems more available. Which seems a little odd to me, surely in today's society, both would have styles appealing to everyone. What that says about clothing to me at least,
A not enough geek girl clothing designers.
B stereotypes are hard to kill
C men's shirts are made of indefinably more comfortable fabric.

Course my observation is thus. Both men and women are highly critical of women's fashion choices. Men only get surprised stares at wearing flip flops with socks or going nude. Or wearing board shorts outside of Australia. First world problems I know, but come on. Aren't we entitled to a tiny bit of whining here?
But your "whining" is more of the reasonable complaint variety.
I really don't understand much of women's clothing.
It looks really uncomfortable & impractical.

Australiastanian, eh? (And female, I assume.)
Are you familiar with a brand from there, Mambo?
I like their (no longer in production) loud rayon shirts (not the
modern graphic tees they make for whippersnappers these days).
One of my favorites was issued to protest French nuclear bomb
testing in the south seas. It pictures surfers riding bombs.
I have 2 versions of it. (I have a lot of Mambo shirts.)
It prompts questions, which I gladly answer.
One like it which was on ebay....
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAMBO-Bi...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

I believe that clothing should express & inspire.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
I mean speaking as a woman, I will say that how products are advertised is certainly at least influential.
Influential, yes. I, as a man, am influenced to be ripped and toned, to look like either Jersey Shore or Viggo Mortensen. But to be frank, no one forces women to wear shirts to where I can count the bumps on their areola.

I get your point on marketing and that "sex sells", I just don't think it has as great an effect on youth (particularly American) as many like to pretend it does. When your daughter dresses as a whore, it's easy to blame the big bad Media, harder to admit that maybe daughter dearest is just trying to get some. Which leads to the problem as presented by Swim: if a woman (or a man) does things to get noticed, they're going to get noticed. Even by the bad. If I go out on the town wearing my kilt, I expect to get all manner of replies and inquiries; I can't pick and choose from women I like to women I don't who get to ask me what's 'neath the tartan.

Now, I certainly agree that looks should never advance beyond that, but do looks really harm someone who's asking for them, even if it's from someone undesired? So much so that the viewer must either be covert in their drawn attention or be reprimanded for harassment?

Personally I'm a nerdy farmer who cannot give a care for what 'looks nice' to men. So I get to take the ugly but also save money not buying expensive fake poket pants and facepaint.
Honestly, I think a lot more men prefer natural looks and causal wear. When I saw that girl walking around with the miniskirt and thong, all I could think was how ridiculous she looked, and (due to the weather) how stupid she was. My coworkers and I might give each other looks and nudges when attractive women come through, but we also laugh at the women painted up like clowns with clothing so tight they can barely walk. We're mostly drawn to the normal looking ones.

I'm not saying there's no effect to the clown suits, but it seems to be limited to a very specific demographics, rather than society as a whole. Like the Vogue Businesswoman from Random's example, that magazine might show up in the local Dillon's, but does it actually affect women in that area? I ask knowing it's going to be a case-by-case thing; for example I myself aren't affected much by the Heraklean models in Men's Health or People. But I still strut what I got every chance I get, even though it's more in line with an issue of Dragon.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Influential, yes. I, as a man, am influenced to be ripped and toned, to look like either Jersey Shore or Viggo Mortensen. But to be frank, no one forces women to wear shirts to where I can count the bumps on their areola.

I get your point on marketing and that "sex sells", I just don't think it has as great an effect on youth (particularly American) as many like to pretend it does. When your daughter dresses as a whore, it's easy to blame the big bad Media, harder to admit that maybe daughter dearest is just trying to get some. Which leads to the problem as presented by Swim: if a woman (or a man) does things to get noticed, they're going to get noticed. Even by the bad. If I go out on the town wearing my kilt, I expect to get all manner of replies and inquiries; I can't pick and choose from women I like to women I don't who get to ask me what's 'neath the tartan.

Now, I certainly agree that looks should never advance beyond that, but do looks really harm someone who's asking for them, even if it's from someone undesired? So much so that the viewer must either be covert in their drawn attention or be reprimanded for harassment?
.
Well I do agree that merely blaming media when a young lady as you put it "dresses as a whore" is not useful or perhaps even entirely accurate.
But see you instantly made a judgement about that hypothetical lady. Although I must admit that I am sometimes a little.....shocked to see what some parents allow their children to wear. I agree sometimes a parent should have some limitations. I mean unless they're nudists I guess.

Well I wouldn't call merely looking (and I'm talking like a sidelong glance or perhaps a few seconds to err take in the person) harmful. Or harassment, unless it's pretty continuous. Even a nod or a smile is fine. But that's usually not where it ends. Catcalling, grabbing, howls and behaviour that is generally only reserved for drunken bars/pubs often come with such looks.
Although I once walked down the Valley at night with my friend who happens to be a professional drag queen. Oh to see the tables turned on the guys we encountered was, admittedly, hilarious.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
But your "whining" is more of the reasonable complaint variety.
I really don't understand much of women's clothing.
It looks really uncomfortable & impractical.

Australiastanian, eh? (And female, I assume.)
Are you familiar with a brand from there, Mambo?
I like their (no longer in production) loud rayon shirts (not the
modern graphic tees they make for whippersnappers these days).
One of my favorites was issued to protest French nuclear bomb
testing in the south seas. It pictures surfers riding bombs.
I have 2 versions of it. (I have a lot of Mambo shirts.)
It prompts questions, which I gladly answer.
One like it which was on ebay....
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAMBO-Bikini-Atoll-Nuclear-Bomb-Hawaiian-shirt-UK-XXL-US-XL-50-034-127-cm-H440-/262877755316?nma=true&si=W2glXte60VlbSClq4PH1lxmT7Jc%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

I believe that clothing should express & inspire.
Truth be told I agree with you on women's clothing. It's like designers go out of their way to make them uncomfortable and impracticable. Almost a sport in and of itself!
Ahh mambo, but of course. Pretty sure my older cousin has several cupboards full of such Hawaiian mambo shirts, if his normal attire is anything to go by.
I normally wear jeans or shorts with shirts (and jumpers) with my favourite characters on them. So I'd have to agree. Clothing should inspire and represent one's personality.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
But see you instantly made a judgement about that hypothetical lady.
Nah, not about her. About the way she dresses. Also she's not quite hypothetical, or singular; it's really several girls who are pretty much regulars through my job. The "you" in my example was general, rather than specific.

Well I wouldn't call merely looking (and I'm talking like a sidelong glance or perhaps a few seconds to err take in the person) harmful. Or harassment, unless it's pretty continuous. Even a nod or a smile is fine. But that's usually not where it ends.
I can really only honestly speak for myself. But I have been around quite a few places, different types of bars, different towns, etc. I people watch pretty often. I'd dare to argue that usually, the looks are where it ends. I know that it doesn't always end there, but I'd argue that such is a minority compared to unrecorded and fleeting instances of a man glancing over his shoulder at a passing fox and thinking to himself "damn!" (or some such). When we (guys) get caught looking, sure there's hell to pay. But take it from me, there's a lot more times that we don't get caught. I'd guess anywhere between 7 times out of 10. Usually we take our glance, have the moment (and it's hard to explain in detail, it's not even lingering and it's understood to be insubstantial), and then move on with the day.

To add Re: Women's Clothes, the pockets on your jeans are a bloody outrage! Not just for you women, but for us men who in turn carry all your stuff! (At least I do; my wife hates purses)
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Nah, not about her. About the way she dresses. Also she's not quite hypothetical, or singular; it's really several girls who are pretty much regulars through my job. The "you" in my example was general, rather than specific.


I can really only honestly speak for myself. But I have been around quite a few places, different types of bars, different towns, etc. I people watch pretty often. I'd dare to argue that usually, the looks are where it ends. I know that it doesn't always end there, but I'd argue that such is a minority compared to unrecorded and fleeting instances of a man glancing over his shoulder at a passing fox and thinking to himself "damn!" (or some such). When we (guys) get caught looking, sure there's hell to pay. But take it from me, there's a lot more times that we don't get caught. I'd guess anywhere between 7 times out of 10. Usually we take our glance, have the moment (and it's hard to explain in detail, it's not even lingering and it's understood to be insubstantial), and then move on with the day.

To add Re: Women's Clothes, the pockets on your jeans are a bloody outrage! Not just for you women, but for us men who in turn carry all your stuff! (At least I do; my wife hates purses)
But you still presume the reason for the young lady's attire, correct?
Maybe it's a stupid dare.

Well it perhaps depends on where you live. Personally I've witnessed it always go beyond looks. Even during broad daylight! But of course I don't think that that "always" is particularly true either. :shrug:
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Nah, not about her. About the way she dresses. Also she's not quite hypothetical, or singular; it's really several girls who are pretty much regulars through my job. The "you" in my example was general, rather than specific.


I can really only honestly speak for myself. But I have been around quite a few places, different types of bars, different towns, etc. I people watch pretty often. I'd dare to argue that usually, the looks are where it ends. I know that it doesn't always end there, but I'd argue that such is a minority compared to unrecorded and fleeting instances of a man glancing over his shoulder at a passing fox and thinking to himself "damn!" (or some such). When we (guys) get caught looking, sure there's hell to pay. But take it from me, there's a lot more times that we don't get caught. I'd guess anywhere between 7 times out of 10. Usually we take our glance, have the moment (and it's hard to explain in detail, it's not even lingering and it's understood to be insubstantial), and then move on with the day.

To add Re: Women's Clothes, the pockets on your jeans are a bloody outrage! Not just for you women, but for us men who in turn carry all your stuff! (At least I do; my wife hates purses)
I've never "caught hell" for checking out women.
Must be my sophisticated social skills....I've always
read signals correctly, & observed social propriety.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
A huge Ulta store (sells womens cosmetics, perfume, and such) just opened in my neighborhood, and it got me thinking about all the trouble women went to make themselves look better. They seem to spend an inordinate amount of time and money on clothing, accessories, hair stylists, and makeup just to look good, which is fine with me. I loooves a well groomed, good looking woman. Then I started to think about how women of late have begun to complain about how we men treat them: eyeing them up and down in their bikinis, looking at their luscious lips, starring at their boobs, commenting on their miniskirt or deep cut blouse.

I know this observation isn't original to me. I've heard it a couple of times before from others. However, it still holds true.

If women don't want us eyeing them up and down in their bikinis, looking at their luscious lips. starring at their boobs, commenting on their miniskirts, or deep cut blouse, then why do they bother to put on lipstick or wear padded and push up bras, or wear mini skirts, bikinis, and blouses with plunging necklines? And the worst part is that we men have to listen to their whining about how we treat them. Objectifying them. Treating them like "meat." while what we are suppose to be doing is ignoring all these calculated sexual, come-hither signals and concentrate on what's in their heads.

Here's a clue women. We're going to take you up on your stratagems. Put on a bikini and we'll be looking you up and down. Wear a crazy red on your lips and we'll notice, Put on a padded or pushup bra and we'll be starring. Wear a mini skirt or a blouse with a plunging neckline and we could very well tell you how much we appreciated it. And isn't this what you're after, our attention and appreciation. If it isn't then stop wasting your time and money on these things, stop your whining and pick up one of those. "Take Me As I Am--Armpit Hair And All" feminist banners and march for your right to be ignored. We'll be happy to comply.

.

Women DO dress sexy because they want male attention. That's a fact. However, they only want attention from *certain* males. Also, women love getting approached, they just hate being approached by socially awkward low-status males.
 
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Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
The idea of a "beta male" is so juvenile that I find it interesting you're using it in the same post where you said I reminded you of "one of those guys at school." Your right-wing friends sound... well, a bit too right-wing if they're using that term unironically.

Actually, it's not juvenile. There's a reason that the average woman would swoon if approached by Brad Pitt, but quickly walk away if an average guy catcalled her.
 
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