Women, Give Us A Break

[SalixIncendium]

A huge Ulta store (sells womens cosmetics, perfume, and such) just opened in my neighborhood, and it got me thinking about all the trouble women went to make themselves look better. They seem to spend an inordinate amount of time and money on clothing, accessories, hair stylists, and makeup just to look good, which is fine with me. I loooves a well groomed, good looking woman. Then I started to think about how women of late have begun to complain about how we men treat them: eyeing them up and down in their bikinis, looking at their luscious lips, starring at their boobs, commenting on their miniskirt or deep cut blouse.

I know this observation isn't new to me. I've heard it a couple of times before from others. However, it still holds true.

If women don't want us eyeing them up and down in their bikinis, looking at their luscious lips. starring at their boobs, commenting on their miniskirts, or deep cut blouse, then why do they bother to put on lipstick or wear padded and push up bras, or wear mini skirts, bikinis, and blouses with plunging necklines? And the worst part is that we men have to listen to their whining about how we treat them. Objectifying them. Treating them like "meat." while what we are suppose to be doing is ignoring all these calculated sexual, come-hither signals and concentrate on what's in their heads.

Here's a clue women. We're going to take you up on your stratagems. Put on a bikini and we'll be looking you up and down. Wear a crazy red on your lips and we'll notice, Put on a padded or pushup bra and we'll be starring. Wear a mini skirt or a blouse with a plunging neckline and we could very well tell you how much we appreciated it. And isn't this what you're after, our attention and appreciation. If it isn't then stop wasting your time and money on these things, stop your whining and pick up one of those. "Take Me As I Am--Armpit Hair And All" feminist banners and march for your right to be ignored. We'll be happy to comply.

.

Because it's all about you.

Nope...it has nothing to do with how they feel about themselves.

It's just about you, because every woman wakes up in the morning thinking, "How can I impress a man like Skwim today?"

 

[Skwim]

Or perhaps they're beholden to a world that judges everything and everyone by looks?

Yup. One of those: I've got what you want trade offs.

Perhaps the multi billion dollar fashion and makeup industry successful peer pressure and shame women of all ages (beginning alarmingly young) to "dress for success" using a particular model of sexually alluring or perfectly perfumed, manicured, make up did and dressed to seduce?
It's one thing to glance at a person and appreciate, ahem, certain aspects. I'm sure I have done many a double take at bare chested muscular men in my time.
But we are supposed to be a civilized nation. We are supposed to be adults with self restraint and discipline. We are, in theory, supposedly adults with notions of polite decorum.

Ouch! Sounds like you've been reading too many "Do Unto Others" books.

Of course, if men are all such wild beasts they have to stare at the mere notion of a naked body like a bunch of 13 year olds dreaming of touching a boob for the first time, then fine. We'll give you a break. Perhaps even a time out.

Can't ask much more of a woman than that . . . . . . . . . . . .or can we . . . .Hmmm.

.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Y'know, we hear a lot that society is conditioning women to dress slutty. But - and I ask this genuinely - is it really? Or is there something to be said for supplying the demand? It's become common to treat it as though women are completely blameless, mere putty in the hands of The Media, but is that really the case? Because I daresay that there's a bit more budget spending going on these days, a bit more conscious thought as to what's being bought, and there's no shortage of modest dress. So on some level, there's a conscious effort to buy revealing and displaying clothing. But to what end? It's not like women can appreciate their own arse hanging out of a mini skirt.

That there is a demand to be supplied doesn't mean the demand wasn't a product of social conditioning. That is even one of the first things you hear as a woman who chooses to dress modestly. 'Were you brought up prude?' To use an example given earlier, I've seen women called ugly to have the audacity to not 'tart up' for the gym. Like we need to convince the world womenkind don't sweat. The fashion industry makes a ton guilting women into believing not using their product is shameful.
But you can't win because if you do dress the standard and get catcalled or propositioned, it's your fault. You wanted it. Nobody believes you when you say otherwise.
Stuck between the rock of being called ugly or the hard place of being called slutty.

Personally I'm a nerdy farmer who cannot give a care for what 'looks nice' to men. So I get to take the ugly but also save money not buying expensive fake poket pants and facepaint.

 

[Skwim]

Usually, I only leave discussions if I have nothing to say or I find that there's too much childish or otherwise unproductive rhetoric for debating to be worthwhile. This is one of those cases where I see enough childish ranting and self-absorbed misconceptions to believe that it's worth neither my time nor my effort to pursue this discussion any further.

Oh my, sliced down to the quick again.

Have a nice day. Maybe one day you'll realize that the world doesn't revolve around men's expectations, I suppose.

Maybe one day you'll realize that the world doesn't revolve around women's expectations, I suppose. (Gee that was easy, a simple copy and past with a slight addition). Life doesn't get much better. See ya round matey.

.

 

[SomeRandom]

Yup. One of those: I've got what you want trade offs.

Or perhaps an exercise in feeling sexy, something that can boost a young lady's own self esteem and confidence? It's why Bayonetta was a particularly popular cosplay. She has an abundance of sexuality but is self confident. Believe it or not, that is something people like to have.

Ouch! Sounds like you've been reading too many "Do Unto Others" books.

Yeah, how dare I advocate personal boundaries and polite decorum? I mean the world is not a nightclub and we all constantly tell kids it's rude to stare. Just saying, a little hypocritical for poor little Timmy.

Can't ask much more of a woman than that . . . . . . . . . . . .or can we . . . .Hmmm.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you thought I was speaking for anyone but myself, you've got a lot of English composition to brush up on.


Darn!


OMG, lighten up buckaroo.

I recall reading a study that showed when faced with a lack of males in a community, the females made far less of an effort to make themselves attractive. Some, even to the point of giving up altogether.


Exactly. Women get to create a persona and then decide how it should be regarded. "I'm going to look like this, AND this is how I expect to viewed." They know how to press the male testosterone button and then play with it. "I'm going to put on the sexiest bikini I can find and god help the character who might ogle me." It's a game they play for crying out loud. Sometimes with the serious intent of snagging some guy, and sometimes just for the thrill of being chased and panted over.


Good grief. The whole male-female dance is pretty much choreographed by her, and you've bought into it. Truth is, both males and females lead and follow, but at different stages of the dance. And although a female might like to call all the shots in the beginning---"I'll dress sexy but get to say what he does with it"---that's only an expectation. We guys (well at least most of us DS) don't always buy into their ploy, and call them on it---If you're going to dress sexy be prepared be noticed, because, after all, we both know that's why you've dressed the way you have." Of course this is an extreme, but don't kid yourself, the same female mindset is carried throughout the day no matter what the situation or what shes wearing. For her, the game is always on. Except of course, for the few who find it more attention getting to whine about whatever male attention they can deem untoward. Thing is, in either case, they get to call attention to their better points. 1) by letting their better points speak for themselves, or 2) whining about the undo attention they're attracting.


All depends on the situation. There are a hundred and one other cues, well maybe only a dozen or so, that have to be considered. But in main, women dress to be noticed by men, at least until they reach their forties.

.

It seems that some things which never occurred to me are
being read into your post. Who says we control their dress?
Who says our checking the gals out must be "excessive"?
Certainly, guys & gals notice each other's approving scans.
The loyal opposition should recognize that we can be at the
approving rather than creepy end of the perusal spectrum.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

It seems that some things which never occurred to me are
being read into your post. Who says we control their dress?
Who says our checking the gals out must be "excessive"?
Certainly, guys & gals notice each other's approving scans.
The loyal opposition should recognize that we can be at the
approving rather than creepy end of the perusal spectrum.

Approving rather than creepy is how middle eastern men often typify obstructive dress for women. Just saying. I'm not saying anything and everything is creepy and this is not a conversation without nuance. There's no monolith in women's opinion or men's opinion on the matter and there are lots of gray areas.

But, if you'll indulge a metaphor, even if some women guilt others into wearing obstructive religious clothing, even if they insist it's their choice (and it is), even if they have a hand in physically making the garments, most of us are pretty comfortable saying that creepy male control of female expression plays an inescapable part of that garment. And the same is true in Western clothing design. Largely controlled by male fashion designers and CEOs to be geared towards male gaze.

The most obvious and my favorite way to escape this dilemma is buying men's clothing.

 

[Revoltingest]

Approving rather than creepy is how middle eastern men often typify obstructive dress for women

If I may speak for @Skwim, both he & I are Americastanian, so our context
is the culture here. The Middle East is very different, so transmogrifying
our views into something oppressive over there is less than cromulent.
We ain't them.

I'm not saying anything and everything is creepy and this is not a conversation without nuance. There's no monolith in women's opinion or men's opinion on the matter and there are lots of gray areas.

But, if you'll indulge a metaphor, even if some women guilt others into wearing obstructive religious clothing, even if they insist it's their choice (and it is), even if they have a hand in physically making the garments, most of us are pretty comfortable saying that creepy male control of female expression plays an inescapable part of that garment. And the same is true in Western clothing design. Largely controlled by male fashion designers and CEOs to be geared towards male gaze.

You said you have the freedom to wear men's clothing, indicating
that this "male gaze" influence can be overcome. Thus, women
who choose clothing which seeks that "gaze" (very impractical &
uncomfortable looking it is) will get what they intended, ie, approving
attention. This is just as guys will dress up to impress "the ladies",
seeking their "gaze". This is fine, so long as each person treats the
other as they'd like to be treated.

I notice that women judge each other, & exert great influence upon
what each wears. It appears far more overt than male influence.
And of course, there are many women designers who cater to
their sistern. Can't blame this on the guys.
Moreover, men aren't without being influenced by women regarding
dress....particularly suits & ties. Some of us are trying to ditch that
standard....to the extent we can without getting divorced.

Each gender affects the dress of both its own & the other.
It's complicated. And it should be more geared for practicality.
(You'll notice that engineers never succeed in the fashion world.)

 

[Sunstone]

@Skwim, for a guy who doesn't much care for religion, you seem to view the world through the traditional religious lens of "women who express -- or even reveal -- their sexuality in public are temptresses, and men cannot control themselves (in this case, control their gaze)".

 

[Debater Slayer]

@Skwim, for a guy who doesn't much care for religion, you seem to view the world through the traditional religious lens of "women who express -- or even reveal -- their sexuality in public are temptresses, and men cannot control themselves (in this case, control their gaze)".

I think this thread is a solid example of how misogynistic views aren't exclusive to religion at all.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think this thread is a solid example of how misogynistic views aren't exclusive to religion at all.

You just remind me one of those guys at school who incessantly take the fight for professional victimized women as that one male "stop objectifying women!!!!" dude I just came from lifting weights at 24 hour fitness and I see a lot of women wearing a sh*t ton of makeup and all types of cleavage showing. A lot of women do love positive attention. This is why nurses I work with get butt implants and breast implants. If men weren't paying attention to specific things most women wouldn't get them. There are some, not all, but a lot that do things (women) do for the attention of men. I live in California, the most materialistic state outside New York, I know for a fact. As my right wing friends would say, stop being that beta male.

Edit: I personally don't care what women do I just observe but I hardly feel sorry for when women do things to place themselves knowingly to attract negative attention. It's like putting a Ribeye steak in a lion's cage and question why lions are stalking you.

We'd all benefit from not labeling each other as "beta male" or "misogynist".
That distracts from the issues & their discussion.

 

[Debater Slayer]

We'd all benefit from not labeling each other as "beta male" or "misogynist".

We'd also all benefit from correctly labeling harmful views rather than engaging in ad hominem or being apologetic toward said views.

 

[Revoltingest]

We'd also all benefit from correctly labeling harmful views rather than engaging in ad hominem or being apologetic toward said views.

Do you believe that without that label, you'd be "apologetic",
& less able to address issues & posts?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Do you believe that without that label, you'd be "apologetic"?

If I didn't call out the harmful views or try to make them seem legitimate, yes, I believe I'd be apologetic.

 

[Revoltingest]

If I didn't call out the harmful views or try to make them seem legitimate, yes, I believe I'd be apologetic.

Then was it also appropriate for EBM to apply the "beta male" label to you?
(No doubt, it seemed legitimate to him.)

The forum rules & guidelines don't specifically prohibit this.
(In fact, they currently aren't clear at all...they just list things of concern.)
But such labeling does run counter to the forum mission statement....

"As a community of diverse cultural and religious backgrounds, our aim is
to provide a civil environment, informative, respectful and welcoming where
people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare and debate religion while
engaging in fellowship with one another."

Edit....
The OP didn't help matters with his last paragraph.
But I think it has merit which can be salvaged...
...if we can discuss it without dismissive labeling.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

We ain't them

Hence metaphor.

You said you have the freedom to wear men's clothing, indicating
that this "male gaze" influence can be overcome.

Women in the middle east have the 'freedom' to choose their dress officially. Doesn't mean they won't get backlash for choosing against the grain of socially acceptable dress.
Dont get me wrong, this is not a one to one comparison. Just illustrating how rational can put dress codes on people who dont want them.
I've been called a dyke for my choice of dress. Despite that...

what they intended

It isnt actually what I intended. It's what was projected on my choice.

I notice that women judge each other, & exert great influence upon
what each wears.

Women can most certainly be complicit in a system that creates expectations of them largely controlled by men. (Re: getting flak for not wearing gendered religious clothing by other people in that gender.) And the design world is largely controlled by men. Men CEOs and men board of directors and male fashion leads. The amount of women in the design world rather than the modeling and showcasing world is pretty small. and that includes suit and tie world which is largely created by men for men.

 

[SomeRandom]

Because it's all about you.

Nope...it has nothing to do with how they feel about themselves.

It's just about you, because every woman wakes up in the morning thinking, "How can I impress a man like Skwim today?"

You mean you don't?
Hey @Skwim, how you doin?

 

[Revoltingest]

I've been called a dyke for my choice of dress. Despite that...

My fashion sense gets some interesting commentary too.
But on the plus side, I'm easy to spot in a crowd.

It isnt actually what I intended. It's what was projected on my choice.

Women can most certainly be complicit in a system that creates expectations of them largely controlled by men. (Re: getting flak for not wearing gendered religious clothing by other people in that gender.) And the design world is largely controlled by men. Men CEOs and men board of directors and male fashion leads. The amount of women in the design world rather than the modeling and showcasing world is pretty small. and that includes suit and tie world which is largely created by men for men.

Just for fun, I searched for....
"list of most influential fashion designers for women"
The 1st result was....
https://artteca.com/blogs/artteca/20-most-influential-fashion-designers-you-need-to-know
The 2nd....
https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/top-fashion-designers-for-women

Looking at all the women in the lists, I find it hard to believe that women
(context: N Americastan) are so very sartorially oppressed by men.
(The Middle East is a different story, one outside the OP's context.)
And I just read in the news that Kylie Jenner is on her way to being
the world's youngest billionaire. Some fashionista, eh.

 

[Skwim]

It seems that some things which never occurred to me are
being read into your post. Who says we control their dress?
Who says our checking the gals out must be "excessive"?
Certainly, guys & gals notice each other's approving scans.
The loyal opposition should recognize that we can be at the
approving rather than creepy end of the perusal spectrum.

Xactly!

.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I'm all for respecting women, but I've got to go with Skwim on this one. Especially during late night bar rushes at my job, I've seen my fair share of women wearing shirts that are see-through (often with no bras), or just going braless and both jutting out enough to cut glass while also showing off enough cleavage to make the Grand Canyon jealous. With the way some women dress, there's either a hell of a lot of confusion going on as to whether or not they want us to notice them, or... I got nothing. I legitimately cannot see any other alternative for dressing that way. I've even seen women walking around in miniskirts and thongs when it's in the 20's, so it's not an issue of comfort.

LUCKY *******!!!!

*Grin*