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Woke-ists on the left, Trumpists on the right, stuck in the middle?

Discussion in 'Political Debates' started by icehorse, Nov 25, 2021.

  1. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    More and more I'm hearing that both woke-ism and trumpism bear many strong resemblances to religions. That certainly seems like a reasonable argument. They both have their dogma, they both promote the idea of blasphemy, they both often resist logical discussion and so on.

    I'm feeling stuck in the middle, what with holding truth, evidence and logic in high regard and all.

    Anyone else feeling stuck in the middle between the extremists?
     
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  2. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    What on Earth is woke-ism? Blasphemy?

    I feel stuck in space with the boys on the ISS watching the Earth. Not "stuck," more like deliberately living. Join the homies man.
     
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  3. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    The extremes on either end are the smallest groups, but have the loudest voices.

    I feel somewhere in the middle having to adjust to the demands of the ends.
     
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  4. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    They do say the eye of the hurricane is eerily calm.
     
  5. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Well the main problem, I think, is that world is sort of in a frontier deadlock, as it should be at this stage in technology & population. No one really wants nuclear war, so that stops wars from happening. And those aren't productive of course. But at the same time, people can't just settle into the tribalism they want, because that leaves cultures open to a divide and conquer strategy. If America separated into 3 or 4 blocks, then another power would percolate over the rest
     
  6. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    We're not stuck in the middle. We're sane. Just gets hard to not see the world as an asylum at times.
     
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  7. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
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    What is "woke-ism"? The definition seems to vary from "supporters of Soviet-style, abusive communism" to basically "anyone who supports LGBT rights, gender equality, and religious freedom."

    Nowadays, quite a few people believe they stand for truth, evidence, and logic when their beliefs and actions seem to me to say otherwise (e.g., young-Earth creationists, theocrats, and anti-vaxxers, among others), so I prefer to listen to what their beliefs actually are in detail before concluding anything like that.

    I also believe it's entirely possible for someone to value truth, evidence, and logic in principle but make some errors in reasoning or assessment of facts that could lead to incorrect conclusions. This is one of the main reasons I think it's unwise to dismiss all Trump supporters or all conservatives, for example, as necessarily having bad intentions or being dishonest--although many indeed are (as are many people from all political persuasions). It's entirely possible for good people to be wrong at times.
     
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  8. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    I think really what it is, at least in major part, is a perceived spectrum between the two poles of what we can roughly say is 'sensitivity' and 'toughness.' I would argue, that perhaps the individual needs both. You can't be cut down with too much criticism, and much of it can be unfair and wrong to give at times, and it can damage people. But if an individual relies on what we might roughly call 'toughness,' this leads to stubbornness, which reality itself can knock down.
     
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  9. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Party members
     
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  10. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
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    That seems a bit too oversimplified, though. The far right is often sensitive about quite a few subjects too. Just look at how theocrats react to perceived "godless agenda" or how they dramatize religiously motivated controversies such as the Satanic panic.

    As far as I can see, there are multiple ways and terms in which one can accurately describe far-left extremism. "Woke-ism" is not one of them; it's too nebulous and often weaponized by conservative extremists to dismiss support for things like LGBT rights and gender equality.
     
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  11. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I think you are correct. Well, maybe we can at least say that two (or more) major forms of tribalism, is what we are seeing. Each of these varying in their parameters, of how they perceive and would like to perceive. Each having a different relationship to science, religion, or at least in wanting to form such. Perhaps each wishing to promote and eschew a variety of regulations.
     
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  12. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    Woke is an old term necromanced by political conservatives and employed as a new term for social justice warriors.
     
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  13. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Both extremes are rather hypocritical
    In saying that I have seen many lefty spaces often criticise “tankies” and “wokescolds.”
    I don’t hang out in a lot of right wing spaces so I can’t say for certain if they call out their members. Though from the outside there seems to be more cohesion. Maybe that’s just a facade. Idk. But Leftists are constantly arguing amongst themselves I swear lol

    The “anti PC brigade” or “anti SJWs” may have a decent point every once in a while. Occasionally I may even agree with them.
    And I can agree with their distaste with performative wokeness or corporate wokeness. Perhaps not for the same reasons. Because they are pro capitalism generally. And arguably capitalism causes such a phenomenon lol. And yeah sometimes such “pandering” actually can be detrimental or enforce certain stereotypes for minority groups. What was once groundbreaking is often now seen as problematic. So there is an easy narrative of never being satisfied there. Not that I agree with such a narrative existing, just that it’s an easy thing to scapegoat all the same.


    As soon as you pick a side, there’s a possibility of tribalism and echo chambers. Especially these days with isolating circumstances and reliance on social media that is literally designed to create your own personal echo chamber (algorithms.)
    So maybe we should all be constantly questioning our own biases, just as a precaution lol
     
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  14. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right..
    here I am stuck in the middle with you

     
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  15. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    'Perceived' is doing a lot of work, there. I lean left, particularly in a social sense, and from an American point of view. Few (IRL) would consider me sensitive, and whilst 'tough' might not be the first word that comes to mind, most would see me as very resilient, low maintenance, and independent.

    I think each 'side' is commonly dealing with a parody of the 'other side'. Reality is way more chaotic.
     
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  16. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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  17. Sedim Haba

    Sedim Haba Senile Member

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    Very much so. I'm old.... very old.

    Way back in the day, a politician running for office would promote how Centrist he was.

    Try to show all voters, of whatever party, that he would be a moderate, and not extremist.

    Nowadays it seems the opposite is true, polarizing politics and society with it.

    This will not end well.
     
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  18. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Being a party member does not make one an extremist.

    In my opinion.
     
  19. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Definitely. Even in Britain.

    For years I considered myself a One Nation or "Pink" Tory (belief in the energy and ingenuity of capitalism and free markets, support of traditional institutions and culture unless they could be shown to be useless or malign, a mixed economy with controls on capitalism, a measure of wealth redistribution through taxation, etc.) I voted mostly conservative, from 1979 through to 1997 and then again up to 2015.

    But now, British political Conservatism has been taken over by shrill (and mostly really quite stupid) English nationalists, intent on stirring up pointless and divisive culture wars. (Worse, from a personal point of view, they have taken away my citizenship of the EU, something for which I shall never forgive them.)

    As for the term "woke", I find it amusing that this has been energetically adopted by what I would call the new "sneering Right" in the US, as a term of abuse. Woke means "awakened" in vernacular language. So how can that be something to be criticised? The opposite would be to be "asleep". How can that be better?:shrug:

    But then, on a range of issues, the modern American sneering Right does seem to make a virtue of being asleep, or of being stupid more generally. Climate change is perhaps the most obvious example. Dallying with daft conspiracy theories that suit a tribal agenda, instead of keeping a clear head and being rational, is another.

    "Woke" is in fact especially obnoxious as a term of abuse, since the vernacular it uses comes from US black culture. So it means a black person awake to, and no longer content with, the disadvantage of being black in America. To sneer at that is basically to disparage racial equality. So there is a kind of dogwhistly undertone of racism and a sort of complacent, suburban white supremacism about it. Yuk.

    As you can see from what I have written, the new direction the Right is taking in the Anglo-Saxon world now makes me look left of centre by comparison. But I still believe in all the things I mentioned at the start. It's just that modern conservatism has abandoned those things in favour of a stupid, narrow and nasty tribalism.
     
    #19 exchemist, Nov 26, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2021
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  20. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry Verisimilitudinous

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    I am often a fencesitter, but when I fall I tend to land on the side that can back their claims with data or at least reasoned argument, and support things like liberty, justice (for all), and general welfare.
     
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