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Wives, be submissive to your Husbands

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Linus said:
Should women submit when there is a conflict? Yes. But the men should be open enough and love their wives enough to listen to what they have to say, take it to heart, and then make a decision.
By doing this, the man is giving his wife no more rights and say-so than he would his own child. I would hope that at the very least my own mother would genuinely listen to, and consider my opinions. To do the opposite would be to blatantly disrespect someone as a person.

At the heasrt of what you're saying Linus, though you may not realize it, you are insinuating that women are not as capable of making decisions as men are. You are saying that women must satisfy themselves with having their opinions merely "considered" by the man, because ultimately, the man knows best.

Personally, I think that women are just as capable of making household decision, and oftentimes know better than their husbands.
This is one of those passages that perplex me. Was the author writing to the customs of the times?
This is a very good point, NetDoc. Obviously, in Jesus' time, women were not as educated as men, etc., and therefore the man often would "know better", and would be able to function more smoothly without being pestered by their childish wives.

Now, however, women are just as educated as men, if not more. Also, it is not uncommon for the wife to be the primary breadwinner these days. If I ever end up in a situation like that, I'll be damned if my husband is going to tell me what to do with my own money! ;)
 

Malus 12:9

Temporarily Deactive.
I'm taking a huge risk arguing with femminism, but oh well.

Thw phrase you have selected may seem "chauvinist", but if you look at the
rest of what you quoted

"Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them" (Colossians 3:18-19).

So, I will make an equally simple complaint. Is it saying all men are harsh with their wives?
LOL

The Bible is not sexist, if anything else. You will find that it says many things in equality:

(Ephesians 5:20-33).However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband"

Ecclestiastes 9:9"Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun-- all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun" (Ecclestiastes 9:9).

Complaint about nothing.
 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
I think we are reading too much into the word submissive. The verse I quoted says that we are to submit to each other. And when you love each other this is easy to do. This is not in regards to woman being man's subordinate.
 

Malus 12:9

Temporarily Deactive.
EnhancedSpirit said:
I think we are reading too much into the word submissive. The verse I quoted says that we are to submit to each other. And when you love each other this is easy to do. This is not in regards to woman being man's subordinate.
Sorry;) . I was going from Ceridwen018's post.
 

CaptainXeroid

Following Christ
EnhancedSpirit said:
I think we are reading too much into the word submissive. The verse I quoted says that we are to submit to each other. And when you love each other this is easy to do. This is not in regards to woman being man's subordinate.
Excellent point. I think a lot of people get unecessarily bent out of shape at the word 'submissive'. It doesn't mean to be a spineless doormat nor does it give men license to lord over women but rather calls men to serve women in the way the Christ served his disciples.
 

Malus 12:9

Temporarily Deactive.
CaptainXeroid said:
Excellent point. I think a lot of people get unecessarily bent out of shape at the word 'submissive'. It doesn't mean to be a spineless doormat nor does it give men license to lord over women but rather calls men to serve women in the way the Christ served his disciples.
Frubal to thee, Xeroid. The word taken out of context, can cause people to think
odd things..
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
ah but the use of the word submissive has been taken and used as the justification for many a social ill.

Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

every thing, voting, sex, money, everything. Women were untill historically very recently property of thier husbands, they had no rights save those that the man gave them.

At least in western society... In many Native American cultures a 'submissive' wife was a bad thing. Women held a lot of influence and power in society. We did all the heavy chores, we owned the lodges and all the belongings except the mans personal items, We helped make the important decisions and we were the ones by whom liniage was traced.

Marrage is a partnership, founded in equality. True men and women tradtionally had different roles to play owing to the nature of hunter-gathering lifestyle, but in the end it was realized that if one dominated the other then the family would suffer as a whole.

wa:do
 

Malus 12:9

Temporarily Deactive.
painted wolf said:
ah but the use of the word submissive has been taken and used as the justification for many a social ill.
What are you implying there PWolf? What be this Social Ill you speak of?

Submissive as in spanking and domination? That is not ill.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
lack of rights to vote, travel, own property, seek divorce, raise children in case of seperation, work, dress, education, I could go on if you like.

Remember that many of these rights are historically new... Women got the right to vote nationally in the USA in 1920, only the right to work thanks to the world wars when men were scarce. Such rights are today taken for granted, but they have been given and taken back many times in the cource of history... for instance women could vote just prior to the formation of the USA the right to vote was repealed starting with New York in 1777. By 1807 women lost the right to vote in every state, the last hold out was New Jersey.

wa:do
 

Malus 12:9

Temporarily Deactive.
I'll probably get flamed by an angry mob of torch wielding femminists for this,
but oh well.

PWolf, if equal rights were unfair back then, why are you (not you in specific)
complaining about it today?
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
There are still issues that need to delt with today... competitive wages for instance.. the fact that women are still less likely to be promoted than men dispite better performance... we still have issues about what women can and can't or should and shouldn't do with thier bodies because men don't like it.
The rights of women around the world are still in shoody shape.

Also history has shown that the rights of women can also be taken away as well as given. As I said Women had the right to vote prior to 1807... did women just decide to not vote anymore?
No, men passed legislation to take that right away from them.
Knowing how fickle such rights are, remembering the past is vital to preventing thier loss again.

Remembering the path that American women had to take to get thier rights is also vital to helping women in other parts of the world keep or gain thier rights.

and don't worry about any torches from me, if the question is valid then its fine. :cool:

wa:do
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Renaldo said:
The Bible is not sexist, if anything else. You will find that it says many things in equality
An astute observation, Renaldo. I would agree that the Bible really does seem to present things very equally when you look at it, this situation included. Unfortunately, these particular passages concerning the relationship of husband and wife have not been traditionally interpreted to represent equality.

Also, great post, PW!
 

Malus 12:9

Temporarily Deactive.
Ceridwen018 said:
Unfortunately, these particular passages concerning the relationship of husband and wife have not been traditionally interpreted to represent equality.
I am not trying to sound sarcastic Cer018, but have they been interpreted otherwise?

:)
 

Malus 12:9

Temporarily Deactive.
painted wolf said:
There are still issues that need to delt with today... competitive wages for instance..
I don't know where you live, but here more females are employed than males.
They also have a higher wage average than males. Are you in the caveman era?

painted wolf said:
we still have issues about what women can and can't or should and shouldn't do with thier bodies because men don't like it.
That's because all me are the same, aren't they? *sigh* Is that not a sexist comment in itself? I know F... all about females, but I can assure you that not all guys are the same.
If we were, I'd welcome the torch wielder feminists:D :biglaugh:
 

Malus 12:9

Temporarily Deactive.
This is a slightly relevant matter...and I do mean slightly, but we are on this topic
of femminism.

I was in the bookstore and browsing a book that featured "undressed" model lasies.
(meh). A lady turned to me and said "Those books are disgusting and degrading:."
I pointed out to her that she was browsing nude pics of Leonardo Dicapprio. "Oh but
this is different, it is art.."

WTF? How is it ok for her to look at Leonardo's uh..dong, but it is not ok
for me to look at ladies who are only topless?

No, BTW, I have no shame.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
**MOD POST**

You're right, Renaldo, that's off topic. Please return to the topic of the thread.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I don't know where you live but here in the USA women only make 76 cents to the mans dollar. That is up from ten years ago when we made 73 cents to the dollar... patheic gains. At the current rate of increase we will catch up to men sometime in 2030's

some interesting facts from:http://www.bpwusa.org/i4a/pages/Index.cfm?pageid=3787

[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Although women are finding they can generally earn more in science, engineering, technology, and other nontraditional fields, pay inequity continues. Over the past ten years the wage gap has barely changed, as women's earnings are only up from 73 cents to 76 cents on every dollar a man makes. Mid-life women are hit hardest when it comes to pay inequality. By age 55, women earn only 69 cents on every dollar earned by men. Catalyst research shows that top female executives only earn 68 cents on each dollar earned by their male counterparts.[/font]
[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]A joint survey done by BPW/USA and the American Management Association found that women are less likely than men to receive additional compensation beyond salary. According to the survey, men average 85% of their compensation in salary and 15% in other forms (performance bonuses, stock options, profit sharing, etc.); for women, the averages are 91% in salary and 9% in other forms. These inequities affect pension proceeds paid to women and affect social security pension payments as well.[/font]
[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]While the number of women in senior ranks of businesses has increased, women are still seriously underrepresented. According to recent government estimates, there were approximately 7.1 million women in full-time executive, administrative, or managerial positions in 1998. A recent study by Catalyst found that women represented 11.9 percent of corporate officers in America's 500 largest companies in 1999, a 37 percent increase since 1995. The study also showed that the number of companies with two or more women officers increased 29 percent from 220 to 282. However, the same study states that men still hold 93 percent of "line" officer positions (the high profile jobs with profit-and-loss responsibility that often lead to the most senior management positions and significant salary increases).[/font]
I certenly realize that not all men are the same just as not all women are... however the fact remains that by and large there is still a sizable gap (especally on the Global scale) in the way men and women are treated. For many there is a cultural/religious justification for this disparity.

wa:do
 

Malus 12:9

Temporarily Deactive.
Sunstone said:
**MOD POST**

You're right, Renaldo, that's off topic. Please return to the topic of the thread.
Oh I thought we were discussing femminism...:confused: ...I thought that's what PWolf and
Ceridwen were talking about.

Okay, ladies, let's return to schedule. Where were we..
[font=Arial,Helvetica][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]According to the Bible both men and women:[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Are made in the image of God[/font] /[font=Arial,Helvetica]Have dominion over the earth[/font] /[font=Arial,Helvetica]Are joint heirs in Christ/[/font][font=Arial,Helvetica]And they have different roles in life.Early feminists viewed the Bible to be degrading to women because of what it teaches concerning the sin of Eve and the role assigned to women in both the Old and New Testaments.[/font]

However the Bible does not hold Eve responsible . In Adam all die 1 Cor. 15:22. As the head, the man is held responsible
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
painted wolf said:
I don't know where you live but here in the USA women only make 76 cents to the mans dollar. That is up from ten years ago when we made 73 cents to the dollar... patheic gains. At the current rate of increase we will catch up to men sometime in 2030's

some interesting facts from:http://www.bpwusa.org/i4a/pages/Index.cfm?pageid=3787

I certenly realize that not all men are the same just as not all women are... however the fact remains that by and large there is still a sizable gap (especally on the Global scale) in the way men and women are treated. For many there is a cultural/religious justification for this disparity.

wa:do
Do you know what the reason is in the States ?:)
 

Malus 12:9

Temporarily Deactive.
PWolf,

It is easy to quote passages that support your posts. I would do the same, but as
Sunstona applied, we are not discussing this..I think.

If we are, I presume you would have heard of Gloria Steinem?
 
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