Without the Holy Spirit...

[firedragon]

Why do you ask?

Gilgamesh flood myth - Wikipedia
The Ancient Babylonian Flood Myth That Inspired Noah's Ark Had A Dark Twist

I ask because I dont understand how you would deem that a myth.

Dont you think this could be one single source, picked up by many these? Just because there are others who wrote of a flood, does that mean everything is a myth?

 

[wellwisher]

I can't speak for the intepretation of the bible alone, but in general if we look at all religious texts, each person who study and following/practice the teaching will have a certain level of understanding or wisdom of what the teaching means.
But no human are at the same exact level, so you will always find variations when people speak of the "true meaning" of spiritual teaching.
Each person just don't understand it exactly the same, and by that cant give just one answer to a question.

An other thing is :how was the question asked? There are variations in how to ask the same question too.

Many factors to take in to the answer.

Picture the whole truth as a 3-D ball. We can approximate this ball of truth with an infinite number of 2-D circles, each with a common center but all at different angles. Each 2-D circles represents a part of the truth, while the sum of all circles approximates the whole 3-D truth.

For example, I might say that Joe is a father. This can be true, but it does not fully characterize the full truth that is Joe. Joe is the center of a 3-D ball of truth. Joe is also a son to his parents and a husband to his wife. These are two of the other circles needed to express the entire 3-D truth. Truth begins small; a few circles, with new aspects of truth; more circles, appearing over time, until one day the full 3-D truth appears. The Holy Spirit helps one fill in the circles with data.

Some things can be true; 2-D circles, without being the whole truth. The propaganda machines of political parties often try to represent a single circle of truth, as the whole truth. A political enemy might say something that is not PC, and be attacked because of this truth. This can be a career ender. But the entire 3-D truth of that person may be mostly a testament to long life full of community service; 3-D truth. If you cannot tell the difference between partial and full truth you will vulnerable to the pull of the propaganda machine. The 3-D truth always trumps the 2-D truth.

When different people and different generations interpret the bible, each is adding 2-D circles to the ball of truth, so that one day the full 3-D truth can be known. Sometime this causes debate and arguments, but that is due to the full truth often having conflicting 2-D circles of truth during different periods of life. But both can be true in the context of the full truth; plotting plus and minus circles on a graph. Nobody is perfect so some 2-D truth may not be flattering. But it is part of a full life and what makes us all human.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Without the Holy Spirit Judas wins and a third of the angels of Heaven are in hell. Save Hope, but the devil will or has knocked a third of the stars from the universe.

 

[idea]

Without the Holy Spirit Judas wins and a third of the angels of Heaven are in hell. Save Hope, but the devil will or has knocked a third of the stars from the universe.

Just curious, what do you think of this video:

Everyone claims to be "led by the spirit"... that sensation, it's not from God....
Elevation (emotion) - Wikipedia.

 

[Audie]

The thing about being "led by the holy spirit" is that there is no way to distinguish genuine guidance from the voice of your own intuition. Since the protestant reformation, the Christian church has split into 10s of thousands of denominations, all of whose doctrines were supposedly "led by the spirit." Well, if it were really the spirit leading, they would all agree. So why do they disagree? Because it is their own intellect and intuition that is doing the interpretation and discernment.

Joseph Smith found all was " Lo here " and, " Lo there ".; but a Angel set him straight with yet another religion via the
gold books of Mormon.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Can one interpret the Bible?

Some claim the Bible interprets itself, which I disagree with.
I interpret the Bible. Usually taking the plainest most mundane meaning. However I can't guarantee this mundane simple meaning to have been the intent of the original author.

Still I have heard from many, making many claims about the true meaning of scripture. I've given up trying to reconcile the numerous claims made by those claiming via some unknown authority, their interpretation.

Should non-believers simply pack up their bags and move to some other topic when it comes to understanding the Bible, or can anyone read the Bible using common language skills and understand it.

It's less "the Bible self-interprets" then it is how skeptics look at single verses out of context. Bible believers recognize that different Bible authors can help us understand other passages, too.

 

[idea]

Joseph Smith found all was " Lo here " and, " Lo there ".; but a Angel set him straight with yet another religion via the
gold books of Mormon.

Quite a few groups have similar stories - including all the polygamous Mormon offshoots. What one believer thinks about the prophets, angelic visits, and authority of other religious beliefs most think of all religious beliefs. Treasure digging gambling convicts who molest children - seems to be a common religious founder for many groups.

Knowing with easy confidence the spiritual experiences, authority, and beliefs of others is wrong - you can also know your own beliefs are wrong as well.

 

[Link]

For what's worth, some of Quran can be understood by non-Muslims, most of it, you need Mohammad (S) and his family (a) to inspire you and reveal you it's truth spiritually as in telepathy and make you know it's them and know they are truth and verify verses about them in Quran.

Their guidance and revealing states of Salah and Zakat through out the journey is needed. Imams (a) of guidance are always coupled with the divine books. They can't be separated.

Hadiths is not the solution alone either. We need to connect to their light.

They are teachers to make us go out of darkness to light and once you make to the light, these Masters will teach you have to behave at each state and level.

Quran calls to Imams (a) and Imams (a) call to Quran.

 

[idea]

It's less "the Bible self-interprets" then it is how skeptics look at single verses out of context. Bible believers recognize that different Bible authors can help us understand other passages, too.

Let us know when all the biblical scholars who spend their entire lives analyzing it agree

 

[idea]

For what's worth, some of Quran can be understood by non-Muslims, most of it, you need Mohammad (S) and his family (a) to inspire you and reveal you it's truth spiritually as in telepathy and make you know it's them and know they are truth and verify verses about them in Quran.

Their guidance and revealing states of Salah and Zakat through out the journey is needed. Imams (a) of guidance are always coupled with the divine books. They can't be separated.

Hadiths is not the solution alone either. We need to connect to their light.

Can you explain why you believe Mohammad rather than Joseph Smith?

 

[Link]

Can you explain why you believe Mohammad rather than Joseph Smith?

Yes I can.

Quran is a divine miracle and I've witnessed enough of it's signs to know this(1).
Mohammad (S) and his family (a) rule the world through their light and are the true kings if we open our eyes to the light, we know it's them right now who are the light (2).
Mohammad (s) and his family (a) have telepathy abilities and they are needed in the journey, and have helped me in my life(3).
There is philosophy in Quran as to what the religion of truth is and why it is the truth in abstract form whether it's Harun's (a) Ahlulbayt or Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim (a) in a given time, but shows why it's always in a form, and why Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) are the only instance right now of the abstract true religion and so I believe on the reasoning of Quran which to me is logical and sound as well. (4)

Which ever one of these you want to get into detail, we can.

 

[Audie]

Quite a few groups have similar stories - including all the polygamous Mormon offshoots. What one believer thinks about the prophets, angelic visits, and authority of other religious beliefs most think of all religious beliefs. Treasure digging gambling convicts who molest children - seems to be a common religious founder for many groups.

Knowing with easy confidence the spiritual experiences, authority, and beliefs of others is wrong - you can also know your own beliefs are wrong as well.

I think Paul was first in a series
of con men.

 

[1213]

... can anyone read the Bible using common language skills and understand it.

I believe everyone who remains in truth can. And curiously, the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of truth.

However when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming.
John 16:13

 

[Audie]

I believe everyone who remains in truth can. And curiously, the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of truth.

However when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming.
John 16:13

" remains in truth"?

 

[pearl]

Should non-believers simply pack up their bags and move to some other topic when it comes to understanding the Bible, or can anyone read the Bible using common language skills and understand it.

The Bible is a literary masterpiece. Is understanding Shakespeare possible with common language skills?

 

[Nakosis]

The Bible is a literary masterpiece. Is understanding Shakespeare possible with common language skills?

I suspect even much of his contemporary audience didn't understand Shakespeare's satire.

 

[Audie]

The Bible is a literary masterpiece. Is understanding Shakespeare possible with common language skills?

It is? Its very uneven, a lot of it is super dull.
repetitive, and way wordy, and takes so long
to say the simplest things.
Soaring poetry here, a list of names there.
Magic realism, folk wisdom, myth, good
advice, obscurantism,ambiguity...quite a mix.

Withal i would expect a god to inspire a
much better work of literature.

As for understanding, nobody understandsthe bible.
Incomprehensible is not a synonym for profound.

 

[Nakosis]

I believe everyone who remains in truth can. And curiously, the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of truth.

However when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming.
John 16:13

Perhaps this is simply the spirit of honesty which I don't see as needing divine intervention.

 

[Muffled]

I believe it is both. Certainly there are things that are as plain as day but others that take the superior knowledge of God to interpret.

 

[Muffled]

The Bible is tricky since there's a lot of mythology some which appears to be based on history and some borrowing from earlier myths such as the flood myth. If one avoids literalist traps and looks at some of the stories as designed to teach certain principles, then asking what psychological or sociological principles might be the heart of some of the stories can be fruitful.

And it depends if you want to focus on the NT or also include the OT. To me, the NT takes some things from the OT, specifically the primacy of love, and puts them "front and center" with the Sermon on the Mount, statement of the two greatest commandments and 1 Corinthians 13.

I believe that is a recipe for disaster.