• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Without God there is no hope

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I have no idea why people misunderstand what I say and turn it into something completely different.
No, God is not an anti-depressant for me just because I believe I feel like God is the only one who can help me.
I am just being logical. The fact remains that no people are helping me so why should I hope for that?
At least there is a chance that God might help me.
This is an interesting question. What is the use of having free will, when someone else’s free will will mess up anything good we planned to do, if any?

I came to the conclusion that free will is overrated by religious people. Sort of an excuse to take God off the hook, so that only men are to blame for everything.

so, I wonder whether it wouldn’t have been better if our will had been constrained. What is the real purpose to be able to do evil? After all, we have several instincts that prevent us to do things bad for us. For instance, I feel a natural repulsion to eat dog’s crap, or lean too much from a high building.

these things seem to affect my total freedom, while not seeming to have turned me into a robot. So, why not a similar natural repulsion against being evil, greedy, and all those things that make the world worse?

ciao

- viole
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God might help me with what I need or not. I am not counting on it, but it's for darn tootin' that nobody else is going to help me.

You don't allow others to help you except perhaps other Baha'i. My feeling is that the religion is a large part of the problem, but you see it as the source for answers even though you say you have no useful answers, and you don't trust external sources.

so far many of the responses further illustrate my belief that without God there is no hope. I'll let you figure out why.

You aren't listening to those people. You are listening to other Baha'i and reading Baha'i literature, which is apparently all you trust, although why I cannot tell. How many unbelievers need to tell you that they feel hopeful without gods or the promise of an afterlife before it has an impact? What you seem oblivious to is how little your religious beliefs are doing for you compared to the lives of others who don't hold them, and to what degree they constrain your options to no apparent benefit.

The fact remains that no people are helping me so why should I hope for that? At least there is a chance that God might help me.

There's a greater chance that people can help you, but you have to let them.

I was only hoping for some guidance from God in solving my immediate problem.

And how's that working out?

I had to go to another forum to get additional help but they convinced me that God is loving.

And yet you keep saying that nobody is going to help you. Unfortunately, you went to believers, whose advice might be comforting, but has the effect of maintaining your focus on a god that doesn't comfort you, and leaves you wondering why.

thus far I have not seen any attempts to debate it, only people making fun of me for my feelings, just because I have hope in God. That is not a debate, it is an assault.

I haven't seen that, so I'm pretty sure that your fellow Baha'i, who frame debate as assault and attack are reinforcing this victim complex. I think you'd be better off if you understood these opinions from outside of your religion as constructive and potentially helpful, and seriously considered them, but that's not really possible in your present mental state, where you see them as the enemy and those who reinforce staying with an approach that hasn't worked are still the best source of guidance.

Incidentally, do you think that's what I'm doing - making fun of you for your beliefs?

I am a Christian, and I don't recognize this God you describe, Sgt. Pepper.

Like Sgt Pepper, I'm a former Christian and recognize her former god.

If you are in need of a job, ask God to help you find a job - and then look for a job.

Or just go look for a job. The outcome will be the same with or without the god part.

If believing in God is what you need at this point in your life, then that's what you should do until you decide differently.

Yes, she feels that she needs to cling to her life raft of a belief, but who put her in that position? Cui bono? I'd say that that need is created by that belief. It can be a psychological dependence of sorts, the loss of which can be terrifying and even lead to withdrawal symptoms. You tunneled out, too. What was that like for you? For me, it was a year of praying to a god I no longer fully believed in to give me a sign if I was wrong and making a mistake turning my back on that religion and its god. Eventually, that stopped, just like my craving for cigarettes when I gave them up, also over about a year.

What works for me - is the acceptance that pain is an integral and unavoidable part of living. Belief or lack thereof in God does not change this fact.

Agreed. Injecting the Abrahamic god into these matters makes that fact inapparent to those taught to believe that God can do anything if you just have a mustard seed of faith. Where you accept suffering as an inevitable part of life and deal with it directly, the believer is taught that he suffers because he's a sinner and deserves it.

I believe that’s called practicing discernment. Whereas rejecting a centuries old compendium of literature in it’s entirety because you can’t reconcile yourself to a handful of verses, is called throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Discernment includes seeing that there is no baby in the bath water. I'm an atheist, but if I found scripture to be a source of wisdom or of any other value, I would say so. But all I see there are words that do nothing for me. So where's the baby in that?

I don't see how it fits your prior assertion, that there is something inherently wrong about reading The Bible selectively, and disregarding those verses or passages that may be the most troublesome to us, from our 21st Century perspective.

Why read it at all if you're going to disregard the parts you already disagree with and accept the parts you have already accepted?

Without a future hope of living then only death enters the picture, death with No hope.

You're wrong about that. If there's an afterlife, I'll see you on the other side. I just don't assume or expect it. Nor do I think you or anybody else has any knowledge on the subject.

Moreover, I don't need it. I'm content with the possibility (likelihood) that death is the permanent extinction of consciousness. Maybe you've been conditioned to find that possibility alarming, and you need reassurance that you are immortal to have hope, but if so, that's just another example of religion creating the need for itself by preventing maturation in a few areas such as not abandoning magical thinking. Christianity makes no bones about wanting to keep its adherents in a dependent state.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
All you did was rearrange my words to make it it sound nicer. I see no evidence for an afterlife and even less for some magical paradise.
I also see No evidence of an ' afterlife ' because afterlife means being more alive after death than before death.
What I find is the Bible speaks of a 'future resurrection' - Acts of the Apostles 24:15 - that there 'is going to be....'
No 'afterlife' but a future happy-and-healthy future physical resurrection for most people back to live life on Earth.
Jesus will have earthly subjects/citizens from sea to sea - Psalms 72:8, 12-14
Adam and Eve along with descendants were Not in a magical paradise but to expand God's sample edenic garden to be spread out, enlarged, to cover the whole Earth. That was Not to be done by any kind of magic but to have the work, the job, of cultivating the ground, planting things and maintaining things.- Genesis 1:28
Work to do as mentioned at Isaiah 65:21-22 building your houses and planting vineyards, etc.
 

Sgt. Pepper

Well-Known Member
Like Sgt Pepper, I'm a former Christian and recognize her former god.

I knew I wasn't the only former Christian who had been instructed in the same concepts. Shortly after I made the decision to leave Christianity and renounce my faith, I joined a nearby support group that was comprised of former Christians or Christians on the verge of leaving Christianity. There were Baptists, Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox among these Christians, as well as people who used to be Christians. The primary topic of discussion was what I discussed in my earlier posts. We all spoke of the trauma we had experienced, either in the church, at home with Christian parents, or both, and we discussed the spiritual abuse that many of us had suffered through. Many of these people, like me, had experienced severe abuse at the hands of their Christian parents. They also experienced PTSD, as do I. And as in my situation, that abuse was often known by their church pastor and the congregation, as well as their family, neighbors, and teachers in school. The majority were also told, like me, that they were either hated by God or that they didn't pray hard enough or have enough faith for God to save them. Most of them shared how they were psychologically damaged because of the trauma and abuse they experienced during their childhood at the hands of their Christian parents or at the hands of other Christians who abused them (spiritual, psychological, and sexual abuse). It was comforting that we had each other to talk to.

Yes, she feels that she needs to cling to her life raft of a belief, but who put her in that position? Cui bono? I'd say that that need is created by that belief. It can be a psychological dependence of sorts, the loss of which can be terrifying and even lead to withdrawal symptoms. You tunneled out, too. What was that like for you? For me, it was a year of praying to a god I no longer fully believed in to give me a sign if I was wrong and making a mistake turning my back on that religion and its god. Eventually, that stopped, just like my craving for cigarettes when I gave them up, also over about a year.

As I stated yesterday (see here), I believe that believing in and having faith in God is an emotional crutch, and it can be very difficult to free yourself from it. It was extremely difficult for me, but the emotional anguish I felt during the process was certainly worth it. And because I know how difficult it can be, I offer support to Christians who are on the verge of leaving Christianity or to people who have just recently left Christianity and are struggling with the process. I'm by no means a counselor, but I will patiently listen to their story.
 
Last edited:

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
.....................these things seem to affect my total freedom, while not seeming to have turned me into a robot. So, why not a similar natural repulsion against being evil, greedy, and all those things that make the world worse?ciao - viole

I like that you said a ' similar natural repulsion against evil..........'
In the Bible God created man sinless meaning: man's leanings were only upright /righteous leanings.
The misuse of free-willed choice caused fallen mankind's leanings to lean towards / wrongdoing.
We can't undo what fallen father Adam did and what he passed on to us: his acquired leaning towards doing wrong.
Because we are innocent of what Adam did is why God sent pre-human sin-less heavenly Jesus to Earth for us.
What Adam proved unfaithful by eating forbidden fruit, sin-less Jesus proved faithful by obeying his God.
Jesus will Not only destroy Satan (Hebrews 2:14 B) Jesus will destroy 'enemy death' for us - 1 Corinthians 15:26
Faithful mankind's leanings will become righteous like Jesus' leanings with a similar natural repulsion against evil.
So, when we ask God that His will be done on Earth as it is done in Heaven, then we are asking God to bring an end to sin and death on Earth because God's will for Heaven is No sickness, No death in Heaven and No greed nor any evil desires.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
This is an interesting question. What is the use of having free will, when someone else’s free will will mess up anything good we planned to do, if any?
I think that is a valid point. First, no man is an island, so we don't normally do everything alone, we depend upon other people. Also, we are all interrelated so what other people do has an effect on what we are able to do.

Free will is simply the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these can be considered causes or reasons why we choose one thing or another.

In short, we are not free to do anything we might want to do. How free our choices are varies with the situation. Certainly, what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as capability and opportunity, but we have volition to make choices, otherwise we could not choose anything.

I do not think it should be called free will, as that is a misnomer. I think it should just be called volition.
I came to the conclusion that free will is overrated by religious people. Sort of an excuse to take God off the hook, so that only men are to blame for everything.

I do not look of it as who to blame. I look at it as who is responsible. Certainly, humans are responsible for their moral choices. that is what all courts of law are based upon. God never goes on trial because God does not 'do anything.'
so, I wonder whether it wouldn’t have been better if our will had been constrained. What is the real purpose to be able to do evil? After all, we have several instincts that prevent us to do things bad for us. For instance, I feel a natural repulsion to eat dog’s crap, or lean too much from a high building.

these things seem to affect my total freedom, while not seeming to have turned me into a robot. So, why not a similar natural repulsion against being evil, greedy, and all those things that make the world worse?
Our will is constrained, as I said above, but we have to be free to choose do evil if we are free to choose to do good.
Why some people choose evil over good is what needs to be answered. Certainly there were antecedents that led to the evil act, but that does not excuse the act itself. Most people do have a moral sense that prevents them from doing evil, but not everyone does good all the time.

If everyone had a natural repulsion against being evil, greedy, and all those things that make the world worse, that would let them off the hook because they would not have to choose between good and evil. God wants is all to choose so we will sacrifice the things of self and the world that cause us to do evil and choose the things that cause us to do good things for other people. In short, God wants character to be earned rather than given away as a free gift.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
As I stated yesterday (see here), I believe that believing in and having faith in God is an emotional crutch, and it can be very difficult to free yourself from it. It was extremely difficult for me, but the emotional anguish I felt during the process was certainly worth it. And because I know how difficult it can be, I offer support to Christians who are on the verge of leaving Christianity or to people who have just recently left Christianity and are struggling with the process. I'm by no means a counselor, but I will patiently listen to their story.

It's so messed up and so many excuses are needed to make it workable. The whole system is based on humans being bad in this life and to win we need to die and move on to the next life. Then there's a the free will thing which is needed to try and patch up all the inconsistencies.
 

Sgt. Pepper

Well-Known Member
It's so messed up and so many excuses are needed to make it workable. The whole system is based on humans being bad in this life and to win we need to die and move on to the next life. Then there's a the free will thing which is needed to try and patch up all the inconsistencies.

I have a friend who is a former Christian and a former drug addict. Taking drugs was how she, as a teenager and young adult, dealt with the trauma and abuse she experienced while growing up at the hands of her Christian parents. She told me once that detoxing from Christianity was similar to detoxing from drugs because both experiences left her with extremely intense emotional withdrawals and deep regret, affecting both her physical and mental health. She had to seek professional help in order to free herself from both.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You don't allow others to help you except perhaps other Baha'i. My feeling is that the religion is a large part of the problem, but you see it as the source for answers even though you say you have no useful answers, and you don't trust external sources.
That is the opposite of the truth as I do not rely upon the Baha'is for anything. I only have one good friend who is a Baha'i, @Truthseeker, since I met him on a forum over 10 years ago, and he has since followed me from forum to forum.
In my time of sorrow over the loss of my husband I do not turn to the Baha'is because I know that all I will get is platitudes about how good God is or Baha'i scriptures and that is the very last thing I need. Please note that I turned to @Nimos to tell my story becaue I trust him with my feelings and I know I will get some good advice from him because I consider him very logical and intelligent.

The sad fact is that the only people who are available to help with grief and loss issues are secular counselors and churches because the Baha'is have no resources for me, only platitudes. The best they can say is "he is in the Abha Kingdom now" as if I am supposed to be comforted by that. Nothing could make me feel worse. What I need are friends to talk to who understand, not religious platitudes.

I have a counselor I talk to every two weeks but we are not talking about grief, but rather what I am going to do with my life now. I do not really feel that sad about the loss as much as not knowing how I am going to live alone for the rest of my life, since I never lived alone except for one year before I was married. Before that I lived with my mother. It is not that I cannot take care of myself, it is something else, and I need to figure out what it is. It helps to talk to other people, but religious people are the worst people to talk to since all they say is that I need to rely upon God, but it is not God who can help me, it is people.

I went to one secular grief group run by social workers and that was okay but not that helpful, since only one person in the group had not lost a spouse. Then I went to a widows group at a church and that was not very helpful either since they only talked about activities they were doing in their lives now, not about their widowhood. Then I went to a grief-share group at a church and I will be attending sessions there weekly because they understand grief and are organized and helpful. It is Bible-based but they don't talk much about God or the Bible. Although there is a workbook that has Bible verses, that is only a small part of the time spent. There is sharing of feelings and about a third of the time is spent watching a video about grief and it is based on actual research, what people actually go through and how to handle it.
You aren't listening to those people. You are listening to other Baha'i and reading Baha'i literature, which is apparently all you trust, although why I cannot tell. How many unbelievers need to tell you that they feel hopeful without gods or the promise of an afterlife before it has an impact?
The fact that unbelievers tell me that they feel hopeful without gods or the promise of an afterlife is completely irrelevant. They feel hopeful because of what they have in their lives that gives them hope, family, friends, activities they enjoy, something to live for. I don't have those things so I do not have hope. Why make it all about God? This is not about God except in a particular context, that I hope that God has a better fate in store for me since I don't seem to be able to effect any positive changes via my free will alone.
What you seem oblivious to is how little your religious beliefs are doing for you compared to the lives of others who don't hold them, and to what degree they constrain your options to no apparent benefit.
Why do some atheists always have to make this a contest between believers and nonbelievers?
I am not 'hoping' that my religious beliefs will do anything for me and they do not constrain my options in any way. If anything constrains my options, it is having so many cats, as @Nimos pointed out.

When I said "so far many of the responses further illustrate my belief that without God there is no hope" what I was implying is that people are not helping me, so I have to depend upon God. It is true that some people actually try to help me, people like @Nimos, but most other people just throw scriptures at me or they tell me I don't need God at all. How is that helpful in solving my immediate problems?
There's a greater chance that people can help you, but you have to let them.
That's true, but I don't see anyone rushing to my door to try to help me. I have to go out and seek help, and I am doing that now, the best way I know how to. I also seek help on this forum because it is more convenient and there are a lot of caring and intelligent people here.
And how's that working out?
Pretty well actually, since I believe that God guided me to go out and seek help in the groups I mentioned.
And yet you keep saying that nobody is going to help you. Unfortunately, you went to believers, whose advice might be comforting, but has the effect of maintaining your focus on a god that doesn't comfort you, and leaves you wondering why.
No, I did not go to believers, I went to @Nimos, who is my longtime friend. I already know hat I will get from believers and I am not interested.
I haven't seen that, so I'm pretty sure that your fellow Baha'i, who frame debate as assault and attack are reinforcing this victim complex. I think you'd be better off if you understood these opinions from outside of your religion as constructive and potentially helpful, and seriously considered them, but that's not really possible in your present mental state, where you see them as the enemy and those who reinforce staying with an approach that hasn't worked are still the best source of guidance.
When I said "thus far I have not seen any attempts to debate it, only people making fun of me for my feelings, just because I have hope in God. That is not a debate, it is an assault" it was referring to debating what is below the first paragraph of my OP, namely fate vs. free will. I was not referring to what I wrote in my first paragraph, which is just my feelings. I even said "I am not making a claim, I am only expressing a feeling." How do you debate feelings?
Incidentally, do you think that's what I'm doing - making fun of you for your beliefs?
In a way you are when you say "Yes, she feels that she needs to cling to her life raft of a belief" since you are implying that I cannot swim without a life raft, because I cannot stand on my own two feet.

No, I have no life raft. I just have faith. A life raft is what keeps one from drowning, and I am drowning despite my faith. I am not actually drowning but I sometimes feel as if I am drowning. There is a difference.
Yes, she feels that she needs to cling to her life raft of a belief, but who put her in that position? Cui bono? I'd say that that need is created by that belief. It can be a psychological dependence of sorts, the loss of which can be terrifying and even lead to withdrawal symptoms. You tunneled out, too. What was that like for you? For me, it was a year of praying to a god I no longer fully believed in to give me a sign if I was wrong and making a mistake turning my back on that religion and its god. Eventually, that stopped, just like my craving for cigarettes when I gave them up, also over about a year.
I could say the same exact thing about nonbelievers, except that their life raft is self and the material world pleasures and everything that they derive from them. I could say you have a psychological dependence upon them, and you would certainly have withdrawal symptoms if they were taken way.

Why do you have to pit belief against non-belief? You made a choice to be a nonbeliever and I am not critiquing that choice. Why can't we all just respect each others choices and learn to live together in peace and harmony?
 
Last edited:

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
Many of these people, like me, had experienced severe abuse at the hands of their Christian parents. They also experienced PTSD, as do I. And as in my situation, that abuse was often known by their church pastor and the congregation, as well as their family, neighbors, and teachers in school. The majority were also told, like me, that they were either hated by God or that they didn't pray hard enough or have enough faith for God to save them. Most of them shared how they were psychologically damaged because of the trauma and abuse they experienced during their childhood at the hands of their Christian parents or at the hands of other Christians who abused them (spiritual, psychological, and sexual abuse).
Nothing in Christianity encourages physical, spiritual or sexual abuse of children. These abusers may have called themselves Christians, but Christ was far from them.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
That is the opposite of the truth as I do not rely upon the Baha'is for anything. I only have one good friend who is a Baha'i, @Truthseeker, since I met him on a forum over 10 years ago, and he has since followed me from forum to forum.
In my time of sorrow over the loss of my husband I do not turn to the Baha'is because I know that all I will get is platitudes about how good God is or Baha'i scriptures and that is the very last thing I need. Please note that I turned to @Nimos to tell my story becaue I trust him with my feelings and I know I will get some good advice from him because I consider him very logical and intelligent.

The sad fact is that the only people who are available to help with grief and loss issues are secular counselors and churches because the Baha'is have no resources for me, only platitudes. The best they can say is "he is in the Abha Kingdom now" as if I am supposed to be comforted by that. Nothing could make me feel worse. What I need are friends to talk to who understand, not religious platitudes.

I have a counselor I talk to every two weeks but we are not talking about grief, but rather what I am going to do with my life now. I do not really feel that sad about the loss as much as not knowing how I am going to live alone for the rest of my life, since I never lived alone except for one year before I was married. Before that I lived with my mother. It is not that I cannot take care of myself, it is something else, and I need to figure out what it is. It helps to talk to other people, but religious people are the worst people to talk to since all they say is that I need to rely upon God, but it is not God who can help me, it is people.

I went to one secular grief group run by social workers and that was okay but not that helpful, since only one person in the group had not lost a spouse.. Then I went to a widows group at a church and that was not very helpful either since they only talked about activities they were doing in their lives now, not about their widowhood. Then I went to a grief-share group at a church and I will be attending sessions there weekly because they understand grief and are organized and helpful. It is Bible-based but they don't talk much about God or the Bible, Although there is a workbook that has Bible verses, that is only a small part of the time spent. There is sharing of feelings and about a third of the time is spent watching a video about grief and it is based on actual research, what people actually go through and how to handle it.

The fact that unbelievers tell me that they feel hopeful without gods or the promise of an afterlife is completely irrelevant. They feel hopeful because of what they have in their lives that gives them hope, family, friends, activities they enjoy, something to live for. I don't have those things so I do not have hope. Why make it all about God? This is not about God except in a particular context, that I hope that God has a better fate in store for me since I don't seem to be able to effect any positive changes via my free will alone.

Why do some atheists always have to make this a contest between believers and nonbelievers?
I am not 'hoping' that my religious beliefs will do anything for me and they do not constrain my options in any way. If anything constrains my options, it is having so many cats, as @Nimos pointed out.

When I said "so far many of the responses further illustrate my belief that without God there is no hope" what I was implying is that people are not helping me, so I have to depend upon God. It is true that some people actually try to help me, people like @Nimos, but most other people just throw scriptures at me or they tell me I don't need God at all. How is that helpful in solving my immediate problems?

That's true, but I don't see anyone rushing to my door to try to help me. I have to go out and seek help, and I am doing that now, the best way I know how to. I also seek help on this forum because it is more convenient and there are a lot of caring and intelligent people here.

Pretty well actually, since I believe that God guided me to go out and seek help in the groups I mentioned.

No, I did not go to believers, I went to @Nimos, who is my longtime friend. I already know hat I will get from believers and I am not interested.

When I said "thus far I have not seen any attempts to debate it, only people making fun of me for my feelings, just because I have hope in God. That is not a debate, it is an assault" it was referring to debating what is below the first paragraph of my OP, namely fate vs. free will. I was not referring to what I wrote in my first paragraph, which is just my feelings. I even said "I am not making a claim, I am only expressing a feeling." How do you debate feelings?

In a way you are when you say "Yes, she feels that she needs to cling to her life raft of a belief" since you are implying that I cannot swim without a life raft, because I cannot stand on my own two feet.

No, I have no life raft. I just have faith. A life raft is what keeps one from drowning, and I am drowning despite my faith. I am not actually drowning but I sometimes feel as if I am drowning. There is a difference.

I could say the same exact thing about nonbelievers, except that their life raft is self and the material world pleasures and everything that they derive from them. I could say you have a psychological dependence upon them, and you would certainly have withdrawal symptoms if they were taken way.
I wonder if you realize how the words "I" and "me" proliferate your posts, Tb.
Maybe something to think about...
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I wonder if you realize how the words "I" and "me" proliferate your posts, Tb.
Maybe something to think about...
I wonder if you realize how much you criticize other people.
You never have anything 'nice' to say to anyone.
Maybe something to think about...

You stop for a while, but you cannot help yourself from reverting to the same old you.
Such behavior is unbecoming of a person who claims to be a Christian.
I guess that is why I don't see any other Christians on this forum engaging in such behavior.

Matthew 7:3-5 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.

27: O SON OF MAN! Breathe not the sins of others so long as thou art thyself a sinner. Shouldst thou transgress this command, accursed wouldst thou be, and to this I bear witness.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10
 

Sgt. Pepper

Well-Known Member
Nothing in Christianity encourages physical, spiritual or sexual abuse of children. These abusers may have called themselves Christians, but Christ was far from them.

Sorry, but the "No True Scotsman" fallacy doesn't fly with me. As far as I'm concerned, that's nothing more than a pathetic excuse.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Nothing in Christianity encourages physical, spiritual or sexual abuse of children. These abusers may have called themselves Christians, but Christ was far from them.
Nothing in Christianity encourages looking at the faults of 'other people' the way you do every chance you get.
Anyone who does that may have called themselves a Christian, but Christ was far from them.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
One reason I have had a problem with believing God loves me because I never felt that my parents loved me. Also it has proven out that nobody else loves me for myself either, all men want is sex or money. I don't even know if Lewis loved me. You are the only person who I feel actually loves me for myself, platonic of course. :)
Did that help you feel that God loved you, my platonic love for you, I mean.:) Did that help you believe that God is all-loving?.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It helps to talk to other people, but religious people are the worst people to talk to since all they say is that I need to rely upon God, but it is not God who can help me, it is people.
We have a similar problem where we live among the Baha'is, but I don't see as a religious problem, but the individualistic culture of America. You are supposed to pull yourselves up from your bootstraps, it's either that or "God will not give you a burden that you cannot handle", which is an excuse for not helping you. It is insiduous how our surrounding culture can influence us all, including Baha'is.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Did that help you feel that God loved you, my platonic love for you, I mean.:) Did that help you believe that God is all-loving?.
No, that is not what convinced me, but I appreciate your platonic love.
It was logic and reason that finally convinced me. :)
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We have a similar problem where we live among the Baha'is, but I don't see as a religious problem, but the individualistic culture of America. You are supposed to pull yourselves up from your bootstraps, it's either that or "God will not give you a burden that you cannot handle", which is an excuse for not helping you. It is insiduous how our surrounding culture can influence us all, including Baha'is.
As I see it, the problem with the Baha'is is that they are too busy trying to save the world with their 'plans' as handed down by the UHJ, community building and all that, to tend to their own flock. They could look at the example of some Christian churches who care about their members and their personal welfare.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
As I see it, the problem with the Baha'is is that they are too busy trying to save the world with their 'plans' as handed down by the UHJ, community building and all that, to tend to their own flock. They could look at the example of some Christian churches who care about their members and their personal welfare.
Community building was intended as an opportunity for Baha'is to help each other. On further reflection, the problem I describe has been present primarily in Kettering where I live. The problem I described was a problem that existed in the Kettering Baha'i Community before we left it for a while. I don't know how much that has improved in Kettering, because we haven't been back there for long, and Feast Zoom meeting have dominated with little socializing because of that format, and also Assembly meetings have been Zoom, which esentially are business meetings. While we were outside of the Kettering atmosphere, the situation has been better. Frankly, I don't like the atmosphere here in Kettering. I'm involved in Kettering because I live here in its city limits. Ironically community building means I have to deal with these people.
 

Sgt. Pepper

Well-Known Member
Nothing in Christianity encourages looking at the faults of 'other people' the way you do every chance you get.
Anyone who does that may have called themselves a Christian, but Christ was far from them.

The more time I spend on this forum, the more convinced I am that encountering followers of Jesus who actually follow his teachings and demonstrate that being a Christian is more than just a label to wear is a rare occurrence. Many Christians seem to have forgotten Jesus' teachings about loving your neighbor as yourself, loving your enemies, and treating others the way you want to be treated. In fact, most Christians that I've met don't behave any differently from the non-Christians that they piously point a judgmental finger at.
 
Last edited:
Top