Without God there can be no Lasting Peace

[icehorse]

I do. Something without difference, united. Is static. Unchanging.

Let's take an example like NASA. They seem to be relatively united in their projects, and they are always pushing the boundaries.

How about scientists in a given field who are all trying to answer some of the same questions?

And so on..

 

[The Hammer]

Let's take an example like NASA. They seem to be relatively united in their projects, and they are always pushing the boundaries.

How about scientists in a given field who are all trying to answer some of the same questions?

And so on..

That doesn't show something static. Those people are working and moving and changing. Differences in views, opinions and perceptions fuels creativity, and dynamics.

Unity still implies stagnation. Those scientists are united in finding an Answer to a singular question, yes, but using different approaches and methodology. Not stagnant. Not unified.

 

[Sand Dancer]

That is what I believe.

But is it more than a just a belief, is it the chance of fulfillment that all Faiths have been waiting for?

Is that not the quandary faced in every age, is that not a lesson that history has taught us, that God has been found in many Names and in many ways?

For me to be true to that belief, that there is no Peace without God, my role first and foremost, in my daily life, is to be an example of what that lasting peace entails.

Another major part of that example is to make mention of that possibility, only to those that desire to talk upon that subject. That is where an individual's responsibly with God ceases.

So this OP is focused on this passage, that I see has come from God, it was given to us in the mid to late 1800's.

"....The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded...."

It is offered in that same Tablet, that God has never left us to ourselves, that we have always had the chance to find that peace and security in the wisdom given by God.

It has also been offered that in previous ages, persons known as Noah, Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad (to name but a few) have all given us that chance at peace, given from God. They have all offered, each in turn, that it would be in the future when all humanity would be given the chance once again. Then the Bab came and offered that that day had come, that He was the Gate to that Day of God. Then Baha'u'llah offered that the Message He had, was that promised 'Day of God'.

"...The Pen of the Ancient King hath never ceased to remember the loved ones of God. At one time, rivers of mercy have streamed from His Pen, at another, through its movement, God’s perspicuous Book hath been revealed. He is the One to Whom none can compare, Whose utterance mortal man can never rival. He it is Who from everlasting hath been established upon the seat of ascendancy and might, He from Whose lips have gone out counsels that can satisfy the needs of the whole of mankind, and admonitions that can profit them...."

I see that is the Truth, that we cannot and will not find peace without embracing what God has said we need to do in this age.

What a quandary life offers.

Regards Tony

The more religious countries tend to be have more crimes and war. It tends to make people clannish.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

It appears that you have faced a Life that was not of God, but dominated by people who were not practicing the Love given of God.

I lived a life that was foreknown by God, and God allowed the severe abuse I suffered to happen. That's not love.

"And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered." Matthew 10:30

"The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps." Proverbs 16:9

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb." Psalm 139:13

"The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

"Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." Ephesians 1:4

"He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you." I Peter 1:20

My wife had the same issues, yet she did not blame God, so I see her heart remained open to the peace that is of God and helped me find that peace.

Regards Tony

To each his (or her) own.

I was a Christian for thirty years, and I suffered from chronic depression, anxiety attacks and suicidal thoughts during those years. I was also diagnosed with PTSD because of the incredible trauma of abuse that I suffered while growing up. I'm much better off now without having God in my life, and I'm finally feeling peace in my life. My emotions are healing, and I'm able to cope with any bumps in the road of life so much better now. I don't regret disavowing my faith, but I wish I had done this years ago because I could have spared myself many years of pain and anguish. It took me several years to free myself from the shackles of my faith, and there's no doubt in my mind that forsaking my faith in God was the best decision that I've ever made for myself and my mental health.

 

[CG Didymus]

is it the chance of fulfillment that all Faiths have been waiting for?

I haven't read ahead yet, but I'm sure there's going to be some interesting opinions.

But, right from the start, the "fulfillment" of all Faiths? What have the different religions been waiting for? Only with very creative interpretations can the prophecies of any of the other religions be made to fit into and point to the Baha'i Faith.

Another problem is that I don't know of any places where Baha'u'llah himself talks about being the "fulfillment" of Hinduism and Buddhism. Are there any?

Then, of course, "God" is such a general term. Do you mean Yahweh, Vishnu, Zeus or who? To me, it seems like people had different concepts of who God is and what he does and will do. They're not necessarily speaking about the "one" God that Baha'is believe in.

Other than that, if there is an all-loving, just God, that created the Earth and all the people and things on it, yeah, it would be wise to follow his rules. Unfortunately, because there's been so many people and cultures that had their own Gods... that gave those people rules and laws to live by, it seems there is a good chance that they made up their Gods and those rules themselves. Like the Egyptians, the Chinese, the Aztecs, the Greeks, and so on.

But if it takes "believing" in this God of yours to get people to stop fighting and killing each other, then sure, let's all believe and live as one big happy family.

 

[CG Didymus]

For some, there is peace with God. For some, there is peace without Her.

The Buddha's message of peace had nothing to do with any kind of Abrahamic God.

And that's the thing, for Baha'is to be right, Buddha had to believe and teach about the Abrahamic God. In one thread a Baha'i found a verse that made it sound like Buddha believed in a God. I don't know? 'Cause it's always easy to find verses that can be interpreted in ways to prove anything.

For me, if Buddha didn't, then that kind of blows the whole "truth" and "integrity" thing out the window for Baha'is.

 

[CG Didymus]

Stole my thunder.

Although I have my problems believing some of the things Baha'is teach, I do understand what they are trying to say. Each religion has brought people closer and closer in larger groups. The family, the tribe, the city, the nation and now, they say, with their prophet, we are evolved enough to become unified as one planet living on one planet. As if at any of those other levels there was ever peace and unity. And lots of times our "unity" was caused by our hatred of a common enemy.

So, supposedly, God thinks we're ready. He sent his new messenger that gave us the things we need to know and do to become one. Simple... Believe in God and his new prophet, follow the rules he brought and love all people and get rid of all our prejudices and hatred we used to have toward each other. Sound so easy. Nations will get rid of most of their weapons. All nations will elect a representative to serve on a world tribunal that will consult with each other on how to resolve all our problems. And, for Baha'is, this peace plan (link to a Baha'i article about peace) will work, because it has been ordained by God. But the weak link in all this is... Is the Baha'i Faith and their prophet really for real?

 

[CG Didymus]

Abrahamic line of Prophets/ Messengers.

Aah? There was sure of a lot of fighting and killing going on in the Bible. And some of it was God telling his people to go fight and kill.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Without God there can be no Lasting Peace

Fixed the title for you.

We have two nature's we must manage. And perfection can and should always remain just out of reach. Just like a calculus derivative often approaches infinity (perfection), but it always remains just out of reach. Never touching. Never merging.

I agree with you that "we have two nature's that we must manage," but you do not go on to talk to that point -- and I think it needs talking about.

We are, by virtue of our evolution, a truly social (what E.O. Wilson would call eusocial) species. We share this eusociality with very few species on earth, and most of the others are insects. We cannot survive without the cooperation of other members of our own species (usually restricted to just some of them -- our "tribe"). As a consequence, we are driven to support the others of our tribe, in order to ensure their support of us.

This is the same in other eusocial species -- let's take ants for an example. Have you ever seen to "tribes" of ants (different varieties) at war? It makes human warfare look like school children throwing pillows at each other. It is totally, absolutely merciless, and ends usually when every member of the opposite tribe has had their heads removed from their bodies, their nests destroyed along with all of the infants in the nest. Putin can only dream about such destruction.

We humans do that, too, of course. But we humans -- by virtue of that other part of our nature -- can do something that no ant ever could: we can default. We can betray, act against, another member of our own tribe. We can steal from them, kill them, commit adultery with each other's spouses.

In other words, we are a social animal that has the capacity to put ourselves first, when we think it's in our best interest. No ant could do that. No bee could refuse to kill an invader in her hive because she knows that when she stings, she will die. She stings, and she dies. Very simple, straightforward, and always true. This is not altruism -- this is rigid eusocialism that ensures the survival of the species and is uninterested in the individuals within the species.

I'll continue this in the context of humans ever finding lasting peace.

 

[Clara Tea]

WITHOUT GOD THERE CAN BE NO LASTING PEACE:

That is what I believe.

But is it more than a just a belief, is it the chance of fulfillment that all Faiths have been waiting for?

Is that not the quandary faced in every age, is that not a lesson that history has taught us, that God has been found in many Names and in many ways?

For me to be true to that belief, that there is no Peace without God, my role first and foremost, in my daily life, is to be an example of what that lasting peace entails.

Another major part of that example is to make mention of that possibility, only to those that desire to talk upon that subject. That is where an individual's responsibly with God ceases.

So this OP is focused on this passage, that I see has come from God, it was given to us in the mid to late 1800's.

"....The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded...."

It is offered in that same Tablet, that God has never left us to ourselves, that we have always had the chance to find that peace and security in the wisdom given by God.

It has also been offered that in previous ages, persons known as Noah, Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad (to name but a few) have all given us that chance at peace, given from God. They have all offered, each in turn, that it would be in the future when all humanity would be given the chance once again. Then the Bab came and offered that that day had come, that He was the Gate to that Day of God. Then Baha'u'llah offered that the Message He had, was that promised 'Day of God'.

"...The Pen of the Ancient King hath never ceased to remember the loved ones of God. At one time, rivers of mercy have streamed from His Pen, at another, through its movement, God’s perspicuous Book hath been revealed. He is the One to Whom none can compare, Whose utterance mortal man can never rival. He it is Who from everlasting hath been established upon the seat of ascendancy and might, He from Whose lips have gone out counsels that can satisfy the needs of the whole of mankind, and admonitions that can profit them...."

I see that is the Truth, that we cannot and will not find peace without embracing what God has said we need to do in this age.

What a quandary life offers.

Regards Tony

Equating God with peace sounds good on paper, but the opposite is true. Religion creates war.

Mixing politics and religion is bad because charletans take power. They tout religion, but make wars....."thou shalt not kill" "turn the other cheek" and Revelation specifically told us not to attack Iraq or face God's wrath (such as Revelation 15....seven mutations of the pandemic).

W. Bush "fought evil" and made a never-ending-war-for-peace is not peace (it's war). He was elected by the Religious Right, as his father was, and his father started the war in Iraq in the first place (trying to protect Kuwait, which used to be part of Iraq).

W. Bush also had torture camps around the world (Camp X-ray and Delta in Guantanamo, where the sign in front said that they were fighting for freedom, and a torture camp in Iraq which had been reported by the International Red Cross, but their complaints ended when friendly fire (from the US) ended the lives of the International Red Cross members who were complaining about the torture, and a torture camp on a US Navy vessel on the Indian Ocean, and other torture camps around the world.

W. Bush had attacked his Taliban allies, who were the religious leaders of Afghanistan, and who had captured Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda top aides merely 9 days after the 911 attack. With so much in the news about the 911 attack, and warped intel coming from the W. Bush administration, it was difficult for the public to know what was going on, and therefore possible to conflate Afghanistan with terrorism (though there was no connection). Bin Laden, at the time, had been a US ally, who had been sent to Afghanistan to repel Soviet invasion.

Reagan and Vice President Bush were also elected by the Religious Right, and they had the Iran Contra scandal, which, behind the back of Congress, supported the Contra dictator in his war against the Sandinistas who wanted educations for their kids and enough food to eat (the Contra dictator restricted their food and made sure that they voted for them or they would be blackballed in Nicaragua (no jobs), as he owned 85 percent of the businesses, and controlled the other 15%. Another part of the Iran Contra scandal was counterfeiting US currency to buy arms (made to look Russian to blame Russia) for Iran's dictatorship. When caught, the Reagan/Bush adminstration lied.

Putin is Christian...he's murdering innocent Ukrainians to reunite the Soviet Union dictatorship and because he's frustrated by being surrounded by NATO nations (they had promised Putin that they wouldn't join).

Iranian's had been excited that the Ayatollah Khomeni had been elected (finally morality will rule Iran, the Iranian students studying in America told me). Khomeni issued a Fatwa condemning them to death if they returned to Iran because they had been Americanized and were now impure.

Anywhere you look, Christians made war. They spread Christianity to native Americans, and Father Junipero Serra (recently sainted by the Vatican for making California's missions), tortured and murdered Native Americans in order to scare them into building those missions.

Modern Mayans are finally learning their history because of the recent translation of their ancient glyphs (Christian Spanish soldiers had forced them not to pass their knowledge to their kids, and forced them to learn Spanish and abandon their native language).

Haiwaiians had been living in paradise prior to Catholic missionaries civilizing them (made them poor, diseased, and miserable on their island paradise).

I hate to refute good Christians who feel peace in their hearts and want to spread that peace throughout the world. But their vision of Christian peace is obviously the opposite of reality.

 

[Clara Tea]

It has?

RE: Christianity did some good.

It felt so good when they stopped. (Like hitting ourself on the head with a hammer).

Mark Twain said that there is no one so bad that they can't serve as a bad example.

 

[Clara Tea]

That doesn't show something static. Those people are working and moving and changing. Differences in views, opinions and perceptions fuels creativity, and dynamics.

Unity still implies stagnation. Those scientists are united in finding an Answer to a singular question, yes, but using different approaches and methodology. Not stagnant. Not unified.

I looked up at a cloud. The steam of the cloud was random, yet, patterns emerged that were not. The cloud was part random and part not random. In science, there are parts that are unified and constant, and parts that are changing. There are parts that are refuted, and parts, of which, all parties agree.

On Star Trek, Spock told a robot that "everything that I say is a lie." The robot then burned out because he figured that he was lying when he said that everything he said was a lie...so that was true, but if it was true, then he lied....etc. The robot had binary logic (something was true or it was not). But; the robot needed to understand that sometimes things are true and sometimes they are not. In this case, sometimes people tell lies (and sometimes they don't).

We need to fight binary thinking.

 

[Clara Tea]

I agree with you that "we have two nature's that we must manage," but you do not go on to talk to that point -- and I think it needs talking about.

We are, by virtue of our evolution, a truly social (what E.O. Wilson would call eusocial) species. We share this eusociality with very few species on earth, and most of the others are insects. We cannot survive without the cooperation of other members of our own species (usually restricted to just some of them -- our "tribe"). As a consequence, we are driven to support the others of our tribe, in order to ensure their support of us.

This is the same in other eusocial species -- let's take ants for an example. Have you ever seen to "tribes" of ants (different varieties) at war? It makes human warfare look like school children throwing pillows at each other. It is totally, absolutely merciless, and ends usually when every member of the opposite tribe has had their heads removed from their bodies, their nests destroyed along with all of the infants in the nest. Putin can only dream about such destruction.

We humans do that, too, of course. But we humans -- by virtue of that other part of our nature -- can do something that no ant ever could: we can default. We can betray, act against, another member of our own tribe. We can steal from them, kill them, commit adultery with each other's spouses.

In other words, we are a social animal that has the capacity to put ourselves first, when we think it's in our best interest. No ant could do that. No bee could refuse to kill an invader in her hive because she knows that when she stings, she will die. She stings, and she dies. Very simple, straightforward, and always true. This is not altruism -- this is rigid eusocialism that ensures the survival of the species and is uninterested in the individuals within the species.

I'll continue this in the context of humans ever finding lasting peace.

The never-ending-war-for-peace in Iraq was war, not peace.

Trump (with the help of Biden) ended the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Though there is much hatred left because of US occupation, time heals wounds. I knew that if the US pulled out antiamerican forces would take over. I believe that terrorists will, once again, attack the US.

The key to lasting peace is establishment of peace.

 

[The Hammer]

We need to fight binary thinking.

I don't disagree.

Things are neither this nor that.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The key to lasting peace is establishment of peace.

That is a tautology. And therefore an utterly useless statement.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The more religious countries tend to be have more crimes and war. It tends to make people clannish.

That would require some solid statistics.

I do not believe that would be the case.

Regards Tony

 

[Revoltingest]

I guess I'll be stuck with no lasting peace.
Because I just cannot start believing in sky fairies.

 

[ppp]

That is what I believe.

But is it more than a just a belief, is it the chance of fulfillment that all Faiths have been waiting for?

Is that not the quandary faced in every age, is that not a lesson that history has taught us, that God has been found in many Names and in many ways?

For me to be true to that belief, that there is no Peace without God, my role first and foremost, in my daily life, is to be an example of what that lasting peace entails.

Another major part of that example is to make mention of that possibility, only to those that desire to talk upon that subject. That is where an individual's responsibly with God ceases.

So this OP is focused on this passage, that I see has come from God, it was given to us in the mid to late 1800's.

"....The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded...."

It is offered in that same Tablet, that God has never left us to ourselves, that we have always had the chance to find that peace and security in the wisdom given by God.

It has also been offered that in previous ages, persons known as Noah, Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad (to name but a few) have all given us that chance at peace, given from God. They have all offered, each in turn, that it would be in the future when all humanity would be given the chance once again. Then the Bab came and offered that that day had come, that He was the Gate to that Day of God. Then Baha'u'llah offered that the Message He had, was that promised 'Day of God'.

"...The Pen of the Ancient King hath never ceased to remember the loved ones of God. At one time, rivers of mercy have streamed from His Pen, at another, through its movement, God’s perspicuous Book hath been revealed. He is the One to Whom none can compare, Whose utterance mortal man can never rival. He it is Who from everlasting hath been established upon the seat of ascendancy and might, He from Whose lips have gone out counsels that can satisfy the needs of the whole of mankind, and admonitions that can profit them...."

I see that is the Truth, that we cannot and will not find peace without embracing what God has said we need to do in this age.

What a quandary life offers.

Regards Tony

I see no more peace among those who claim to embrace God than from those who do not.

 

[Sand Dancer]

That would require some solid statistics.

I do not believe that would be the case.

Regards Tony

Misinformation and Facts about Secularism and Religion

There are lots of other sites showing this, but I wasn't sure which ones would be better received; i.e., most unbiased.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I lived a life that was foreknown by God, and God allowed the severe abuse I suffered to happen. That's not love.

"And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered." Matthew 10:30

"The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps." Proverbs 16:9

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb." Psalm 139:13

"The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

"Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." Ephesians 1:4

"He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you." I Peter 1:20



To each his (or her) own.

I was a Christian for thirty years, and I suffered from chronic depression, anxiety attacks and suicidal thoughts during those years. I was also diagnosed with PTSD because of the incredible trauma of abuse that I suffered while growing up. I'm much better off now without having God in my life, and I'm finally feeling peace in my life. My emotions are healing, and I'm able to cope with any bumps in the road of life so much better now. I don't regret disavowing my faith, but I wish I had done this years ago because I could have spared myself many years of pain and anguish. It took me several years to free myself from the shackles of my faith, and there's no doubt in my mind that forsaking my faith in God was the best decision that I've ever made for myself and my mental health.

I hope you can find your peace.

I wish you all the best in life.

Regards Tony