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Without a creator God, do we need morality?

Your reply missed this mans question. Please give him and me your honest thoughts on this, as is the reason for the forum. I'm interested.


Democratic Socialist
id believe in the duplicity of both the revelation of Jim Henson's Muppets against Jim Henson's Muppet Babies.

St Giordano Bruno

Well-Known Member
Yes, for social structure and harmony. Without some moral code civilization as we know it would not be possible. Instead the law of the jungle would rule forever.


[FONT=&quot]I would like to firstly state, i am closer to an agnostic than a i am any particular religion or lack of religion. Nor is this intended to provoke atheists or agnostics. I'm simply curious about the subject. I also encourage anyone to argue anything i say that may seem unjust.

I should start by defining some terminology outright cause i have no real interest in this turning into a sophist debate.

Reality: for the purpose of this, lets separate the definition into two kinds. a personal reality will relate to the individual perception reality validated by one's own awareness. the second will be conventional reality, or a reality that is agreed upon by a conventional sense.

Truth: to me a truth can be personal, but it can be applied by the individual to the rest of existence.

Theism and Christianity: I'm being non-specific as i am sure there are those who fall under the category yet deviate in a sense that fall outside of context with my proposal. As such, to generalize i am referring to those who believe in an omnipotent being with who dictates a conventional morality.

Atheism: Simply the belief that there are no creator gods or God-heads. A generalization I make is that they favor Science

Morality: The ideology that one or more modes of reality are superior to another. Usually accompanied with an antithetical mode known as Amorality. morality also tends to have ideological consequences

anyways, using Christianity as an example, Monotheism lends itself to a singular and coherent truth. The truth of Christianity is Comprises of three things. 1. the Existence of God 2. The existence of his creations 3. The morality of the natural world. Because, to a Christian, morality and nature are closely related (one applies to humans the other to the rest of God's creation) there is a both the natural and unnatural world just as there is an moral and amoral world. These worlds are legitimized by a being whose self is limitless and knowledge and power are all encompassing. From the theist model, it then makes sense for a reality to be finite.

Atheists don't have that luxury. Science tends to be the predominate "religion" for the atheist. To treat science as a form of truth common...but somewhat impractical...at least in a Christian definition. Science observes phenomena and provides models to explain it's function. It is not essentially truth as truth leads a sense of permanence to the subject. It is simply an idea on how it works that can be added and subtracted to with perhaps the hope there can be a unified understanding of nature.

In my opinion, which i admit is speculative, is that without God or any topical force that can dictate correctness, humanity is left alone to cope with understanding the universe around it. Since humanity is limited in knowledge and awareness, his concept of morality is an ideal and only exists conceptually and if that is truly the case, does that not imply relativism? Would not morality in an atheist imply a reaction to theism and the cultural saturation that theism has affected?[/FONT]
1-truth is an interpretation of facts and that interpretation is nearly always incorrect.
2 - there is no god, there are no creations.
3-Morals are just laws, rules and regulations created by man to allow large groups of people to live, and work together with the least possible interactive problems.
4-Morals are human creations, like laws, nothing more. \
5-Morals change from time to time, place to place and society to society.

What the Hebrews considered moral and godly, oh, killing every man woman and child in Jericho, most people today would consider to be horribly amoral. (although, many Christians have stated that killing all the Iranians, Iraqis or Palestinians would be a good thing).

I am an atheist, and I have NO religion, about the only thing I do religiously is to read. I am not a scientist, but, I do accept facts over myth, superstition and nonsense. However accepting facts is not a religion.

Oh, there is no such thing as an "unnatural world" and amorality just means "something that is not my moral value."