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Witchcraft in Judaism
- Thread starter Harel13
- Start date
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
So you want to know whether or not the lady from Shmuel 28 was using names in order to perform necromancy? That's the question?
No offense, I want to be clear?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Good to know.Nothing wrong with Chabad sources.
It'd be interesting to know, but that's not my main issue. I want to know how mankind came to know these techniques and all of the Dark/demonic knowledge it takes to actually do this stuff. Where'd the "spell theory" come from? How'd it get to mankind? Did Hashem just give it over, or did He command a Shed to go over to some random human and tell him: "Hey, bub, if you say X and Y and do A, B, C, you'll be able to bypass God and do your own miracles..."? Or something else?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
It's the hinder part... once you get to tanya 22... let's talk about it?
Ask yourself the same thing about a Chazer. Who invented the BLT? when you have that figured out... I think it'll be easy from there.
Hinder?
And that could take a couple of months...
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Only a couple months... that's great!
Hopefully... It may take longer...
Are you referring to a kosher version?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Surely you jest... no the real BLT. Why does it exist if it's not for us.... and then where did it come from?
I propose if you follow that train of logic ( ok assuming logic is even a good word )... you will eventually get to the answer.
Oh. My thoughts were going in a different direction, based on what we had just learned in ch. 10 of Tanya.
Eventually...
Yes, Harel, a weird question. Adam was a zeisen boyChick but he ate the red delicious!!This is something that's been bugging me for a couple of years now: I get that there used to be actual witches that wielded the dark forces (that woman from Ein-Dor aka the witch of Endor, stories from the gemara, etc), and I get that there are dark forces in the world (discussed well by the Ramchal in Derech Hashem) - but how did people originally figure out how to use these dark forces? How did they figure out the techniques, spells(?), etc? Were they just mumbling gibberish all day and seeing what worked?
I mean, were Adam and Eve created with witchcraft knowledge inserted into their minds? Even if so, after having sinned in the Garden, why pass that knowledge on?
Kind of a weird question...
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Good riddle, dyb. I say take it and eat it, you ?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Agreed.
Gen 3:6.
So, based on Gen 2:17 and Gen 3:3 and Gen 3:6. Eve did indeed sin, but it was based on 2nd hand information, and her understanding of the instructions were hyper-literal which opened an apparent loophole in G-d's instructions.
Here it is summarized
Gen 2:17 - God tells Adam ( pre split ) Do not eat the fruit of the tree of Knowledge.
Gen 2:18-19 Adam is split
Some time between Gen 2:19 and Gen 3:3 eve is taught the rule about not eating from the tree but remembers it or was taught wrong.
Gen 3:3 Eve says the rule is "don't eat and don't touch or else I will die.
Gen 3:6 Eve takes then eats.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
This is something that's been bugging me for a couple of years now: I get that there used to be actual witches that wielded the dark forces (that woman from Ein-Dor aka the witch of Endor, stories from the gemara, etc), and I get that there are dark forces in the world (discussed well by the Ramchal in Derech Hashem) - but how did people originally figure out how to use these dark forces? How did they figure out the techniques, spells(?), etc? Were they just mumbling gibberish all day and seeing what worked?
I mean, were Adam and Eve created with witchcraft knowledge inserted into their minds? Even if so, after having sinned in the Garden, why pass that knowledge on?
Kind of a weird question...
If you are talking about (כשוף) the Rambam explains in Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Avodah Zara that there person is actually tricking people and is not actually doing something that goes against the laws of nature. Thus, they are making people think they have done something unnatural. He discussion other types of Avodah Zara, which could fall under the English witchcraft label, which he details them as people tricking other people into thinking something is happening that is really not happening.
For example, imagine someone who knows chemistry using what they know to trick people who know nothing about chemistry. Another example, a person who makes prophetic claims based on their knowledge of astronomy to a group of people who don't understand astronomy. Further, a person who makes people think they are speaking to the dead when in reality they are cold reading their audience.
dantech
Well-Known Member
Just thought I'd weigh in here.
I remember reading something about Bil'am in Me'am Loez about how he got his "powers". It had something to do with meeting two angels named Aza and Az'El which had left God's service on a test to show that humans don't deserve God's mercy. They were given free will and eventually started thinking of themselves as Gods.
I don't remember all the details but they had sent Bil'am on a mission to gather different things, and offer them sacrifices and ultimately completely devote himself to them. Once he did, he was shown how to use dark magic.
It was a long process, and it was described in some detail to show that to be dedicated to Avoda Zara, it wasn't a spur of the moment kind of thing, but rather a long demanding process which requires true dedication.
If you'd like, I could try to find it for you. I read this over a year ago so grain of salt.
Something else I "remember"...
Genesis 25:6
I believe it was Rashi who brought a source from Sanhedrin to explain that Abraham told them the names of impurity.
I remember reading something about Bil'am in Me'am Loez about how he got his "powers". It had something to do with meeting two angels named Aza and Az'El which had left God's service on a test to show that humans don't deserve God's mercy. They were given free will and eventually started thinking of themselves as Gods.
I don't remember all the details but they had sent Bil'am on a mission to gather different things, and offer them sacrifices and ultimately completely devote himself to them. Once he did, he was shown how to use dark magic.
It was a long process, and it was described in some detail to show that to be dedicated to Avoda Zara, it wasn't a spur of the moment kind of thing, but rather a long demanding process which requires true dedication.
If you'd like, I could try to find it for you. I read this over a year ago so grain of salt.
Something else I "remember"...
Genesis 25:6
I believe it was Rashi who brought a source from Sanhedrin to explain that Abraham told them the names of impurity.
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They said you were gone.
dantech
Well-Known Member
I was