Witchcraft in Judaism

[Harel13]

Derech HaShem 3:2:9 in the english is titled: Sorcery .

I'm sorry. I didn't pick up on the Ramchal reference in the OP.

OK. That's specific. That's a specific type of sorcery. The idea is that divine names are divine. Angels are holy and can do super-natural things. divine names have a purpose, mission, so to speak, that's why G-d created them in the first place. Same thing with Angels. They are on a vector. They have mission.

Sorcery as the Ramchal describes it is the **attempt** to redirect these divine vectors. For divine names it's easy to imagine misusing them for personal gain. But the other examples in 3:2:9, are hard to imagine.

Think of it like a water wheel. The water is coming down the hill.... those are the angels on their mission. Sorcery is an **attempt** to put a water wheel in the middle in order to some sort of work.

But it's totally not kosher.

This is about misusing divine names. But I'm pretty sure he also talks about witchcraft.

 

[dybmh]

This is about misusing divine names. But I'm pretty sure he also talks about witchcraft.

OK, i'll read it again.

 

[dybmh]

Ya know, I kinda feel like the whole topic begins in 3:2:7.

I'm assuming you don't have the book in from of you... maybe it be good to restate the question specifically about witchcraft. because I keep leaning towards sorcery when answering.

 

[Harel13]

Ya know, I kinda feel like the whole topic begins in 3:2:7.

I'm assuming you don't have the book in from of you... maybe it be good to restate the question specifically about witchcraft. because I keep leaning towards sorcery when answering.

I'll have the book in front of me in a bit and then I'll see.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

See Wiki: Scrying: Scientific reception ... Perhaps they were not "read in" by the CIA.

It depends on whether you call it "scrying" or "remote viewing" now, doesn't it? Remote viewing gets mixed results. There is far more room for debate.

The Stargate Project was claimed to have been terminated in 1995 following an independent review which concluded:

The foregoing observations provide a compelling argument against continuation of the program within the intelligence community. Even though a statistically significant effect has been observed in the laboratory, it remains unclear whether the existence of a paranormal phenomenon, remote viewing, has been demonstrated. The laboratory studies do not provide evidence regarding the origins or nature of the phenomenon, assuming it exists, nor do they address an important methodological issue of inter-judge reliability.​

Further, even if it could be demonstrated unequivocally that a paranormal phenomenon occurs under the conditions present in the laboratory paradigm, these conditions have limited applicability and utility for intelligence gathering operations. For example, the nature of the remote viewing targets are vastly dissimilar, as are the specific tasks required of the remote viewers. Most importantly, the information provided by remote viewing is vague and ambiguous, making it difficult, if not impossible, for the technique to yield information of sufficient quality and accuracy of information for actionable intelligence. Thus, we conclude that continued use of remote viewing in intelligence gathering operations is not warranted.
— Executive summary, "An Evaluation of Remote Viewing: Research and Applications", American Institutes for Research, Sept. 29, 1995
​

What gets placed in the Wikipedia article on Remote Viewing gets frequently changed -- the above is from a previous version that I got from a cached edition. Apparently some people don't like it mentioned that the results were statistically significant (meaning greater than random), even if they were not viable for intelligence gathering.

That they didn't actually prove a causal relationship with a psychic ability is not unusual. Science is very strict about causal relationships -- they are very hard to prove, and the exact nature of how Remote Viewing works is just not known.

 

[Harel13]

Ya know, I kinda feel like the whole topic begins in 3:2:7.

I'm assuming you don't have the book in from of you... maybe it be good to restate the question specifically about witchcraft. because I keep leaning towards sorcery when answering.

Okay, having looked at the book: 3:2:8 talks about the existence of dark forces, summarizing the 'why' in short. 3:2:9 explains some of the different ways to do kishuf/witchery (what's the word in the translation @dybmh?). One is by usage of names, which I understand to mean names of impurity, which causes some unnatural phenomena, and the other appears to be the summoning of Shedim (also, I assume, through usage of names) to do the caster's bidding.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It depends on whether you call it "scrying" or "remote viewing" now, doesn't it? Remote viewing gets mixed results. There is far more room for debate.

The Stargate Project was claimed to have been terminated in 1995 following an independent review which concluded:

The foregoing observations provide a compelling argument against continuation of the program within the intelligence community. Even though a statistically significant effect has been observed in the laboratory, it remains unclear whether the existence of a paranormal phenomenon, remote viewing, has been demonstrated. The laboratory studies do not provide evidence regarding the origins or nature of the phenomenon, assuming it exists, nor do they address an important methodological issue of inter-judge reliability.​

Further, even if it could be demonstrated unequivocally that a paranormal phenomenon occurs under the conditions present in the laboratory paradigm, these conditions have limited applicability and utility for intelligence gathering operations. For example, the nature of the remote viewing targets are vastly dissimilar, as are the specific tasks required of the remote viewers. Most importantly, the information provided by remote viewing is vague and ambiguous, making it difficult, if not impossible, for the technique to yield information of sufficient quality and accuracy of information for actionable intelligence. Thus, we conclude that continued use of remote viewing in intelligence gathering operations is not warranted.
— Executive summary, "An Evaluation of Remote Viewing: Research and Applications", American Institutes for Research, Sept. 29, 1995
​

What gets placed in the Wikipedia article on Remote Viewing gets frequently changed -- the above is from a previous version that I got from a cached edition. Apparently some people don't like it mentioned that the results were statistically significant (meaning greater than random), even if they were not viable for intelligence gathering.

That they didn't actually prove a causal relationship with a psychic ability is not unusual. Science is very strict about causal relationships -- they are very hard to prove, and the exact nature of how Remote Viewing works is just not known.

Good quote. Thanks.

 

[dybmh]

Okay, having looked at the book: 3:2:8 talks about the existence of dark forces, summarizing the 'why' in short. 3:2:9 explains some of the different ways to do kishuf/witchery (what's the word in the translation @dybmh?). One is by usage of names, which I understand to mean names of impurity, which causes some unnatural phenomena, and the other appears to be the summoning of Shedim (also, I assume, through usage of names) to do the caster's bidding.

Yup, found it... in the english it's on 209. This translation comes from Feldheim.

if we're looking at the correct word... yes it's translated as sorcery, and it is distiguished from necromancy... that's the english-tranlsation.

I'll see if I can type it out in hebrew... but i'll switch to my phone for that...

 

[dybmh]

"והא ענין טמאה הכשוף והדרישה"

"sorcery and necromancy"

 

[dybmh]

@Harel13, OK, so we can still go back to the water wheel analogy if it's helpful. It still fits for necromancy. And that's specifically what happened in the endor story.

Your call though, you may have all the pieces you need you need at this point?

 

[Harel13]

@Harel13, OK, so we can still go back to the water wheel analogy if it's helpful. It still fits for necromancy. And that's specifically what happened in the endor story.

Your call though, you may have all the pieces you need you need at this point?

Right now I'm leaning to saying that all names - pure and impure - were passed down from Hashem to Adam, the idea being what the Ramchal says, which is allowing freedom of choice for mankind, and as @Tumah said, they're all part of the system of creation made by Hashem. To fully understand the system, you would have to understand both sides of it - the good and the bad.

 

[dybmh]

Right now I'm leaning to saying that all names - pure and impure - were passed down from Hashem to Adam, the idea being what the Ramchal says, which is allowing freedom of choice for mankind, and as @Tumah said, they're all part of the system of creation made by Hashem. To fully understand the system, you would have to understand both sides of it - the good and the bad.

yeah. but, the lady from endor didn't use the names... she used necromancy.

 

[Harel13]

yeah. but, the lady from endor didn't use the names... she used necromancy.

Which comes from where? Names, I assume.
Different name combos/techniques produce different results, I guess.

 

[dybmh]

Which comes from where? Names, I assume.
Different name combos/techniques produce different results, I guess.

Here's the simple reposnises to your questions.:

"Which comes from where? Names, I assume." Nope. I would not assume that.

"Different name combos/techniques produce different results, I guess." Nope that would not be my guess.

OK. So... that's an example of the simple somewhat unsatisfying answer.

Moving on from that:

Here's the next step in the answer... approaching it from reason.

We simply don't know what the lady did. Not clearly. All we know is what G-d chose to tell us in the Torah. That's it. That's all we can really really count on. So... what does the Torah say about it. If you want specifics, go read the endor story. That's all we can say about how... literally... she did what she did.

But, that's not all we know. and this is the punchline... this is the whole deal.

We don't know what she did precisely, but know who she is, and that it's not kosher. I could go on to derive this for you, but @rosends did it in another thread, I don't know how long ago it was... maybe a week, maybe 2? Maybe you saw that thread. the gist of it is:

1) whatever she did it's not Kosher
2) She is a Balat-Ohv. I understand that as Not Jewish.

That's the next level of understanding. Up to here... I think this is safe territory for me to speak about.

OK. I can keep going and explain why the water wheel is still a good model for understanding necromancy... but it gets fuzzy. I can probably explain it, without bringing in any "other" "alien" influences... but again, maybe this is enough?

 

[Harel13]

2) She is a Balat-Ohv. I understand that as Not Jewish.

I actually always thought she was Jewish. Sinful, but Jewish. Ohv means channeling dead spirits.

We don't know what she did precisely, but know who she is, and that it's not kosher. I could go on to derive this for you, but @rosends did it in another thread, I don't know how long ago it was... maybe a week, maybe 2? Maybe you saw that thread. the gist of it is:

I don't recall seeing rosends' thread.

Anyway, I'm not really interested in the how. I simply want to know how mankind came to know how to do these things.

 

[dybmh]

I actually always thought she was Jewish. Sinful, but Jewish. Ohv means channeling dead spirits.

If so she is willfully breaking halacha... it's a Torah prohibition...

I suppose if it's to save a life though...

edit to add... oh... that was kinda in fashion back then wasn't it... that's kinda the whole point of those ...stories..

 

[Harel13]

If so she is willfully breaking halacha... it's a Torah prohibition...

From the sound of things, she may have been out of practice for a while - it says there that before she recognizes Shaul, she tells him that the king has forbidden such things, after working to rid Eretz Yisrael of witches, necromancers and the like.

 

[dybmh]

From the sound of things, she may have been out of practice for a while - it says there that before she recognizes Shaul, she tells him that the king has forbidden such things, after working to rid Eretz Yisrael of witches, necromancers and the like.

Bingo... that's exactly what I was thinking... what if it was a direct order... or to save lives...

either way... this all drifting from the OP which was about the source for the "so-called" witchcraft in Shmuel 28.

Do you still have questions 'bout that?

 

[Harel13]

Do you still have questions 'bout that?

I'm just wondering if there's a source somewhere that states that my theory on the origins of this transferring of knowledge to mankind is correct.

 

[dybmh]

I'm just wondering if there's a source somewhere that states that my theory on the origins of this transferring of knowledge to mankind is correct.

I can look... but i need more specifics... and it will probably come from Chabad sources... but I would try and find a more neutral root source. but I doubt I will find anything.

can you state the "theory of the origins..."?