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Will you be happy in heaven while your child burns in hell?

slave2six

Substitious
Originally Posted by slave2six
Or that the original LDS philosophy included that having black skin was the result of a curse from God...
really?
2 Nephi 5:21 - And he had caused the acursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

Nephi 2:14-15 - And it came to pass that those Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites
 

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
2 Nephi 5:21 - And he had caused the acursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

Nephi 2:14-15 - And it came to pass that those Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites
Would you like some fries with that "Out of Context"?
 

slave2six

Substitious
Would you like some fries with that "Out of Context"?
Only if they're curly fries. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain why the BOM equates dark skin to being cursed? And perhaps you would also like to tell us just how many black people are Mormons now, when black people were first admitted into the the religion, how Joseph Smith viewed black people, and why no black people have any position of authority within the church?
 

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
Only if they're curly fries. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain why the BOM equates dark skin to being cursed? And perhaps you would also like to tell us just how many black people are Mormons now, when black people were first admitted into the the religion, how Joseph Smith viewed black people, and why no black people have any position of authority within the church?

There are multiple threads on this already. Go pull up those, read them all the way through, and then open up this can of worms in another thread. You are only derailing this one.
 

Vasilisa Jade

Formerly Saint Tigeress
Yeah there are tons of good threads debating and clarifying that issue.

Just an fyi though, there are at least 3 africans in the local church here, and I remember seeing a few here and there as missionaries back in the day. They are there, they are simply few.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Would you like some fries with that "Out of Context"?
Not only is this out of context. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic of the OP. It is nothing but an attempt to derail this thread and sling some mud on the LDS Church.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
To those who believe in the traditional concept of heaven and hell (even those who think hell means separation from god) - if you had a loved one who was atheist, how do you think you could be eternally happy in heaven while you know your loved one is burning in the lake of fire?

This always has been one of the logical problems with "heaven and hell" Xianity, one couldn't be happy in a heaven missing loved ones, or maybe even pets.
 

Smoke

Done here.
This always has been one of the logical problems with "heaven and hell" Xianity, one couldn't be happy in a heaven missing loved ones, or maybe even pets.
Well, I think we've established that there are several people on RF who are perfectly content with the idea of their "loved" ones going to hell, as long as they themselves go to heaven. I can't say I find that an admirable quality, though.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Well, I think we've established that there are several people on RF who are perfectly content with the idea of their "loved" ones going to hell, as long as they themselves go to heaven. I can't say I find that an admirable quality, though.

I'm not really too worried since there is no heaven and hell, they were carrot and stick inventions of the church to get and keep believers in the faith.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
you would be kind enough to explain why the BOM equates dark skin to being cursed?
It doesn't, except when you take it out of context as you have.

And perhaps you would also like to tell us just how many black people are Mormons now...
Impossible to say, since the Church does not maintain statistics with regards to ethnicity.

when black people were first admitted into the the religion
Well, the Church was established in 1830. Black people were first admitted into the religion in 1830.

how Joseph Smith viewed black people
He viewed them the same way he viewed white people. He taught that the only reason that blacks were not as culturally and intellectually advanced as whites was the lack of opportunity. "Change their situation with the whites," he said, "and they would be like them."
and why no black people have any position of authority within the church?
Thousands of black people hold positions of authority within the Church, some of them very high positions.

Now, how about we get back to discussing whether people will be happy in heaven while their children burn in hell. For the Latter-day Saints, it's a non-issue.
 
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Smoke

Done here.
I'm not really too worried since there is no heaven and hell, they were carrot and stick inventions of the church to get and keep believers in the faith.
I think that's another reason why you have to pick now, before you die, with no evidence whatsoever. If God gives you a chance to know the truth and then choose, then you don't have to listen to the pope (or the pastor); everything will work out in the end.

That's one thing I admire about Mormonism. They kept the carrot, but were brave enough to throw away the stick. ;)
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don’t really wish to enter this thread, since, for me, the question is a “non-issue” since, like Katpur pointed out, for early christianity (or any modern adoption of the ancient Christian doctrines) it is a non-issue. (i.e. God does NOT physically torture individuals in a hell where they are "burned" forever - but in the early teachings, I believe such descriptions were always seen as symbolic). I did want to simply leave an early concept of hell.

I also admire the Mormons as I study them. I admire their return to the early doctrines regarding Hell and the descriptions of “burning” as a symbolism. For example the early teachings clearly pointed out that the “fire and brimstone”, the “burning” were symbolic of the terrible regrets; the feeling of “what could have been” for those who reject what they knew was true. (I do not see evidence that the earliest christianities did NOT seem to hold to condemnation for those who were not given understanding or knowledge - again, another doctrine I am starting to admire the Mormons for...)

As to the description of hell, the prophet Ezra gives a more clear version of it’s discomforts (which have nothing to do with burning or physical torture or with actual brimstone), the Prophet Ezra taught :

“When the decisive decree has gone forth from the Most High that a man shall die, as the spirit leaves the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it adores the glory of the Most High. And if it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not kept the way of the Most High, and who have despised his Law, and who have hated those who fear God – such spirits shall not enter into habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments, ever grieving and sad, in seven ways. The first way, because they have scorned the Law of the Most High. The second way, because they cannot now make a good repentance that they may live. The third way, they shall see the reward laid up for those who have trusted the covenants of the Most High. The forth way, they shall consider the torment laid up for themselves in the last days. The fifth way, they shall see how the habitations of the others are guarded by angels in profound quiet. The sixth way, they shall see how some of them will pass over into torments. The seventh way, which is worse than all the ways that have been mentioned, because they shall utterly waste away in confusion and be consumed with shame....” P 539-40 4th Book of Ezra 7; 75-87;
The “seven ways” the dead feel “punishment” is described by Ezra thusly: He taught they grieve and are sad since they scorned and abandoned moral laws to have simply lived good lives and they grieve if they treated those badly who were attempting to live morally. They grieve because cannot “fix” adequately what they did in the past. They grieve because they finally see what they could have achieved. They grieve because they consider the long duration of their final condition and lack of power and ability they have. They grieve and envy the condition of others who did live greater moral laws and live in peace. They grieve because they will see others who chose immorality who live in conditions like themselves. They grieve because they will live in a condition of less knowledge and feel ashamed of their prior immoralities.
I just wanted to leave a thought regarding an earlier Christian model for and description of hell for consideration.

I agree with the LDS that God does not punish by torturing individuals in an actual "fire and brimstone".

Clear
drdrdrsisi
 
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Andal

resident hypnotist
I don’t really wish to enter this thread, since, for me, the question is a “non-issue” since, like Katpur pointed out, for early christianity (or any modern adoption of the ancient Christian doctrines) it is a non-issue. (i.e. God does NOT physically torture individuals in a hell where they are "burned" forever - but in the early teachings, I believe such descriptions were always seen as symbolic). I did want to simply leave an early concept of hell.

I also admire the Mormons as I study them. I admire their return to the early doctrines regarding Hell and the descriptions of “burning” as a symbolism. For example the early teachings clearly pointed out that the “fire and brimstone”, the “burning” were symbolic of the terrible regrets; the feeling of “what could have been” for those who reject what they knew was true. (I do not see evidence that the earliest christianities did NOT seem to hold to condemnation for those who were not given understanding or knowledge - again, another doctrine I am starting to admire the Mormons for...)

As to the description of hell, the prophet Ezra gives a more clear version of it’s discomforts (which have nothing to do with burning or physical torture or with actual brimstone), the Prophet Ezra taught :

The “seven ways” the dead feel “punishment” is described by Ezra thusly: He taught they grieve and are sad since they scorned and abandoned moral laws to have simply lived good lives and they grieve if they treated those badly who were attempting to live morally. They grieve because cannot “fix” adequately what they did in the past. They grieve because they finally see what they could have achieved. They grieve because they consider the long duration of their final condition and lack of power and ability they have. They grieve and envy the condition of others who did live greater moral laws and live in peace. They grieve because they will see others who chose immorality who live in conditions like themselves. They grieve because they will live in a condition of less knowledge and feel ashamed of their prior immoralities.
I just wanted to leave a thought regarding an earlier Christian model for and description of hell for consideration.

I agree with the LDS that God does not punish by torturing individuals in an actual "fire and brimstone".

Clear
drdrdrsisi

Psychological torture is just as merciless and evil as physical torture, especially on an eternal scale. It is unfitting of a deity who claims to be loving and merciful.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Krishnakanta

Krisnakanta said:
“Psychological torture is just as merciless and evil as physical torture, especially on an eternal scale. It is unfitting of a deity who claims to be loving and merciful.”

I agree with your claim, but what does it have to do with the description I gave of personal regret?

I personally might regret that I did not invest in microsoft stock in the very beginning. This specific regret or grief is NOT a "psychological torture" God inflicted upon me, it is a discomfort I myself feel for a lost opportunity.

If I choose a life of killing, lying, murder and rape, and later regret and grieve over what I did, what does THAT personal regret and grief have to do with God?

Clear
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Psychological torture is just as merciless and evil as physical torture, especially on an eternal scale. It is unfitting of a deity who claims to be loving and merciful.
It's not God who tortures. Anyone who has any sense of decency at all will be tortured by guilt over the things they did to cause pain and suffering to anyone else. Furthermore, God has provided a way by which that suffering might be alleviated. That is not only loving and merciful; it's also just. I could easier worship a Deity who, having created us, gave us rules by which to live and fair warning for the consequences of disobedience -- and who actually followed through with the punishment He warned us of, than I could worship one whose promises of consequences for wrongdoing meant nothing. My God has done nothing unfitting of a loving and merciful deity, particularly when His Son offered to pay the price demanded by justice, thereby making it entirely possible for no one to have to suffer.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
It's not God who tortures. Anyone who has any sense of decency at all will be tortured by guilt over the things they did to cause pain and suffering to anyone else. Furthermore, God has provided a way by which that suffering might be alleviated. That is not only loving and merciful; it's also just. I could easier worship a Deity who, having created us, gave us rules by which to live and fair warning for the consequences of disobedience -- and who actually followed through with the punishment He warned us of, than I could worship one whose promises of consequences for wrongdoing meant nothing. My God has done nothing unfitting of a loving and merciful deity, particularly when His Son offered to pay the price demanded by justice, thereby making it entirely possible for no one to have to suffer.

Except most of homo sapiens never heard of your god, or were brought up in cultures that taught other types of belief.
 
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