• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Will the UK Labour party split if Corbyn wins the leadership election?

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
The majority of Labour MPs don't support Corbyn, and it seems likely he will win the leadership election.

So do you think the Labour Party will split if he wins, maybe into "Old Labour" and "New Labour"? And would these be capable of providing an effective opposition, or winning a general election?
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I hope it does. I'm sick of the party's right wing gerrymandering and trying every dirty tactic in the book to ensure the party membership's choice is disregarded. What they're doing is downright disgusting. Whatever the right wing end up with in the event of a split, they should not be allowed to call it Labour.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I hope it does. I'm sick of the party's right wing gerrymandering and trying every dirty tactic in the book to ensure the party membership's choice is disregarded. What they're doing is downright disgusting. Whatever the right wing end up with in the event of a split, they should not be allowed to call it Labour.

Just imagine the legal battle which might ensue over the use of the name "Labour". ;)
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Just imagine the legal battle which might ensue over the use of the name "Labour". ;)

I'm amazed the party hasn't been sued because they took money off of new members saying they could vote in the leadership ballot then immediately disenfranchised them. They took the monies under false pretences - it's basically stealing.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
I don’t think enough MPs really feel strong enough about it to actually leave Labour, not least because both sides of a split party would have a harder job getting in to office. If there was an obvious party for them to move to it might be different but there is so little between Labour and the Conservatives these days that there’s no room between them for anyone else, yet jumping from Labour to Tory would remain a psychological barrier too far even for the right-of-centre Labourites.

Most of the Corbyn opponents (and probably many supporters for that matter) seem more interested in keeping their cushy “jobs” than anything else. After all, pretty much the only stated objection to Corbyn seems to be that he isn’t electable (ironic given how long he’s been an MP) which isn’t many steps away from wanting to win elections above anything else, regardless of any sacrifice of principle, policy or morality involved.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
After all, pretty much the only stated objection to Corbyn seems to be that he isn’t electable (ironic given how long he’s been an MP) which isn’t many steps away from wanting to win elections above anything else, regardless of any sacrifice of principle, policy or morality involved.

It's a valid objection in the sense that UK politics has shifted to the right in recent decades, which is why New Labour shifted to the right in order to win some elections.

In a way it's the lesser of evils, would you prefer a "New Labour" style party which could actually win elections and do stuff, or would you prefer the Tories staying in power indefinitely?
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
In a way it's the lesser of evils, would you prefer a "New Labour" style party which could actually win elections and do stuff, or would you prefer the Tories staying in power indefinitely?
I think it would make literally zero practical difference. I’m not convinced any of the three parties that have made up recent UK governments have had any significant difference in actual implemented policy or outcome. The Westminster bubble has led to a stagnation in UK government where the people involved have more in common with their supposed opponents on the opposite benches that they do with their supposed colleagues and members in their own political parties.

That’s not to say this situation is necessarily all bad and the alternative of constant swings in government between political extremes would bring just as many problems. It’d be nice to find a comfortable middle ground but I don’t expect that to happen in the foreseeable future.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I think it would make literally zero practical difference. I’m not convinced any of the three parties that have made up recent UK governments have had any significant difference in actual implemented policy or outcome. The Westminster bubble has led to a stagnation in UK government where the people involved have more in common with their supposed opponents on the opposite benches that they do with their supposed colleagues and members in their own political parties.

That’s not to say this situation is necessarily all bad and the alternative of constant swings in government between political extremes would bring just as many problems. It’d be nice to find a comfortable middle ground but I don’t expect that to happen in the foreseeable future.
You really think that New Labour was the same as the Tories?
I agree there was a lot to dislike about New Labour but they at least realised what Rick O'Shea has said that the electorate has moved to the right.
You can have some marvellous policies but if you don't win the election they are nothing more than talking points.
The earliest I can see anything other than a Tory government is 2025 and that horrifies me. We need an opposition, the SNP are doing their very best but Labour are nowhere to be seen.

Corbyn, I'm sure is a lovely man, has some great ideals...BUT he is not a leader.
Unfortunately, in this day and age the leader has to be good on TV
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
You really think that New Labour was the same as the Tories?
In rhetoric no, in practical outcome, yes. The people at the top of all of the major parties are largely interchangeable these days. That’s why someone like Corbyn (who isn’t especially extreme or unusual) has created such a shock-wave and why people like Farage and Johnson can establish such stand-out profiles on the basis of very little real content, just a little show of being a bit different.

You can have some marvellous policies but if you don't win the election they are nothing more than talking points.
The Lib Dems, Greens, SNP and UKIP have all had great influence on national government in various ways without (and generally without being capable of) winning any UK general elections. Part of the problem here is the assumption that winning the election is the be-all and end-all with how you do it and what you do when you get there being very much secondary (if considered at all).

Corbyn, I'm sure is a lovely man, has some great ideals...BUT he is not a leader.
Definitely not a natural, especially in the polished, spin-doctor managed style of the day but I think the Labour party could have made his leadership work if he had the right team around him in support. The reason Corbyn has failed is because he opponents within the party deliberately manufactured his failure. Their sole concern seems to be them winning a general election. Their party, it’s policies, it’s members, the country and the voters don’t appear to be of any concern what so ever. It’s far from a unique attitude in modern politics, it’s just so blatant in the recent Labour leadership dispute.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
In rhetoric no, in practical outcome, yes. The people at the top of all of the major parties are largely interchangeable these days. That’s why someone like Corbyn (who isn’t especially extreme or unusual) has created such a shock-wave and why people like Farage and Johnson can establish such stand-out profiles on the basis of very little real content, just a little show of being a bit different.

The Lib Dems, Greens, SNP and UKIP have all had great influence on national government in various ways without (and generally without being capable of) winning any UK general elections. Part of the problem here is the assumption that winning the election is the be-all and end-all with how you do it and what you do when you get there being very much secondary (if considered at all).

Definitely not a natural, especially in the polished, spin-doctor managed style of the day but I think the Labour party could have made his leadership work if he had the right team around him in support. The reason Corbyn has failed is because he opponents within the party deliberately manufactured his failure. Their sole concern seems to be them winning a general election. Their party, it’s policies, it’s members, the country and the voters don’t appear to be of any concern what so ever. It’s far from a unique attitude in modern politics, it’s just so blatant in the recent Labour leadership dispute.
Farage and Johnston have TV personalities, love them or hate them the press wants more of them. It wants less of Corbyn.
"Great Influence"!!! I want the Labour party to have more than great influence. Good grief you are already treating them as a fringe party.
A good leader does not just need spin etc. he can build a good team around him. Corbyn has not done that.
If you really think he has failed because of his opponents within the party, there is really no hope for the party. Such a shame.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
You really think that New Labour was the same as the Tories?

Clearly not. They made a lot of mistakes, but they did pump a lot more money into Health and Education than the Tories ever have.

The problem with UK politics these days is that everyone is trying to occupy the centre ground.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Farage and Johnston have TV personalities, love them or hate them the press wants more of them. It wants less of Corbyn.
The press is welcome to them! We’re not talking about the entertainment industry though, we’re talking about ultimately determining the leadership of the nation and the press is the very last body we should be listening to on that! The press care less about principles, policies and parties than the politicians do, they just want sales and website hits. Farage and Johnston give them that as does Corbyn’s failure (which is why they also played an active role in it too).

If you really think he has failed because of his opponents within the party, there is really no hope for the party. Such a shame.
I’m no great fan of any political party but I agree that it’s a shame. The real issue is the growing distance between the Parliamentary party and the membership though that is just a parallel to the growing distance between the Westminster bubble and the people. It’s only unlucky circumstance that has seen the Labour party as the first to significantly fall foul of that institutional failure (though I’d suggest it’s a factor in the recent fall in fortunes of the Lib Dems too).
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I’m no great fan of any political party but I agree that it’s a shame. The real issue is the growing distance between the Parliamentary party and the membership though that is just a parallel to the growing distance between the Westminster bubble and the people. It’s only unlucky circumstance that has seen the Labour party as the first to significantly fall foul of that institutional failure (though I’d suggest it’s a factor in the recent fall in fortunes of the Lib Dems too).
In my opinion, the biggest problem is the growing distance between the Labour membership and the electorate.
 
Top