Will the real Trinity please stand up.

[dawny0826]

Absolutely. I even agree that they are "one." I just don't interpret the word "one" the same way you do. Other than that, we are in agreement.

Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Buttercup]

Oh well, you can't blame me for trying. What about Stephen (NT)? He saw Jesus sitting on the right hand of the Father. If there had not been two distinct beings, there could have been no physical relationship. It would have been impossible for Stephen to have seen Jesus to His Father's right unless they were two physically distinct beings.

We have so little information on what God looks like. The only thing I am confident of is this....I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They have equal power and are all God at the same time and always have been. What does this Triune God looks like? I have no idea. But I would imagine absolutely glorious.

He was God's only begotten Son in the flesh. Was God Jesus' literal Father in the respect that Mary was His literal mother? (No sexual relationship is implied here, but the answer to that question will probably get to the bottom of what I'm trying to discover.

I am so sorry....I am just not getting what you mean here. Wish we could talk in person.

And we both agree that Jesus was here on Earth in corporeal form. So how is it possible that they are "one substance" if one is corporeal and the other is not, if one is in Heaven and the other is not? Furthermore, where does the Bible even vaguely imply that they are both part of a single substance? I know it must sound like I'm just trying to be difficult, but I seriously want to make sense out of this and I can't.

I don't think you're being difficult at all. We're merely having a conversation. For this question I would say that if God can create this entire universe...why wouldn't he be able to be God in spirit in Heaven and then God in flesh on earth at the same time?

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

how could god be all three be the same person when Jesus was Baptized all three where prisant the father saying " this is may beloved son in whom i am well pleased" the holy Ghost deceding like a dove and Jesus coming out of the water?

 

[dawny0826]

how could god be all three be the same person when Jesus was Baptized all three where prisant the father saying " this is may beloved son in whom i am well pleased" the holy Ghost deceding like a dove and Jesus coming out of the water?

Because, in the FLESH...Christ was God's son. His purpose on Earth was to show us how to commune with God in a parent/child relationship.

 

[Squirt]

We have so little information on what God looks like. The only thing I am confident of is this....I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They have equal power and are all God at the same time and always have been. What does this Triune God looks like? I have no idea. But I would imagine absolutely glorious.

Well, we're told that He created us in His image, after His likeness. A few chapters later, we're told that Adam begat a son in His image, after His likeness. In the first instance, most people insist that the language is merely figurative. In the second, they agree that this means Adam's son resembled him physically. We are told in the New Testament that Jesus is "the express image of His Father's person," and yet for some reason most people can't bring themselves to admit that this scripture is saying that Jesus looks like His Father. The Old Testament is full of references to God's various body parts and yet people simply dismiss them as figurative. Moses said He spoke to him "face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend." I don't see how God could have put it much more clearly than that.

I am so sorry....I am just not getting what you mean here. Wish we could talk in person.

I'm just wondering if you believe that God the Father was really Jesus' Father or if the words "Father" and "Son" do not convey an actually familial relationship between them at all. If they are truly father and son, how can they both be the same substance? (Or maybe I don't understand what the word "substance" is supposed to mean.)

I don't think you're being difficult at all. We're merely having a conversation. For this question I would say that if God can create this entire universe...why wouldn't he be able to be God in spirit in Heaven and then God in flesh on earth at the same time?

Well, if the Father and the Son are truly two distinct beings, yes, absolutely. But if they are some sort of single mystical entity, I don't see how it would be possible. Most Christians believe (I think) that God (the Father) is a spirit that fills the universe. If that is the case, and if He and His Son are not physically distinct from one another, how could Jesus be walking the earth with a physical body? The whole thing gets back to (1) are they two physically distinct beings who together are known as God or (2) are they a single substance with physical qualities and attributes that are mutually exclusive?

I'm glad you don't think I'm being difficult. And I wish we could talk in person, too. Wouldn't that be fun? :dan:

 

[Squirt]

Because, in the FLESH...Christ was God's son. His purpose on Earth was to show us how to commune with God in a parent/child relationship.

That raises another question, Dawny. Was He only God's Son during His mortal life, or was He God's son pre-mortally too? And is He still God's Son?

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

this is beginning to remind me of one of Tallmadge’s books i can't remember which one... but this is one of those logical fallacies that can either be answered with the sprit or you need to die before you know... i thank of the god head as god being the leader making commandments and stuff(or the Father), Jesus being the ruler of this earth and telling prophets what to do and telling us all how to follow the commandments of god, the holy ghost is to help us and couch us throughout this life and is also a witness to the divinity of God and Jesus. all act in the accordance to the rules and commandment and laws that started at the beginning of the creation of earth. Each have a different role that can only be done by each as individuals and all have the power and authority of God thus making them the God head or trinity… that’s what I understand from the scriptures form years of studying and letting the holy ghost guild me…

 

[Buttercup]

Well, we're told that He created us in His image, after His likeness. A few chapters later, we're told that Adam begat a son in His image, after His likeness. In the first instance, most people insist that the language is merely figurative. In the second, they agree that this means Adam's son resembled him physically. We are told in the New Testament that Jesus is "the express image of His Father's person," and yet for some reason most people can't bring themselves to admit that this scripture is saying that Jesus looks like His Father. The Old Testament is full of references to God's various body parts and yet people simply dismiss them as figurative. Moses said He spoke to him "face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend." I don't see how God could have put it much more clearly than that.

I have no problem with thinking that Jesus could have looked like God the father. I could squeeze that in my beliefs. But, what I cannot derail is that Jesus and God are One! I don't know how they do it...but I am confident they do do it! That's all I need. Knowing what the Truine God looks like has no bearing on my salvation. It is merely speculation after all. He could very well appear as three persons yet still be one entity. I have no idea.

I'm just wondering if you believe that God the Father was really Jesus' Father or if the words "Father" and "Son" do not convey an actually familial relationship between them at all. If they are truly father and son, how can they both be the same substance? (Or maybe I don't understand what the word "substance" is supposed to mean.)

I believe Jesus and God are One. Not a literal father/son relationship like your son (if you have one) has with his father, your husband. You son and your husband are two separate people. They are not One. As I said before, I think the Father/Son references are for our benefit. So we understand the concept better.

I have to say that I think we basically believe the same things do you? So many of these questions you ask cannot be answered. At least not in my mind.

Do you believe that Jesus is on equal par with God? Is part of God?

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

i thank the God and Jesus are one isn't lateral i thank it metaphorically, being one in the goal at hand Jesus don't even know when he is going to rule on earth only the father, but as for the commandments they are one and when Jesus is coming back the are two... like a husband and wife being one but are two with the whole marriage thing... this is the best way i can thank of to describe it...

 

[Squirt]

I have no problem with thinking that Jesus could have looked like God the father. I could squeeze that in my beliefs. But, what I cannot derail is that Jesus and God are One! I don't know how they do it...but I am confident they do do it!

But I believe they are "one," too, Buttercup. What I am trying to get at is how are they one? In what way are they one? The Bible never even remotely implies that they are physically the same being. On the contrary, it practically shouts that they are not. Just as an example... Have you ever gone to buy a greeting card to send with a wedding gift and you find one that says, "Now you two are one"? What do you think that means? That the man and woman who are getting married are in some mystical way the same being?

I believe Jesus and God are One. Not a literal father/son relationship like your son (if you have one) has with his father, your husband. You son and your husband are two separate people. They are not One. As I said before, I think the Father/Son references are for our benefit. So we understand the concept better.

This may be a difficult question, but why don't you believe their relationship is truly that of a Father and a Son? Is there anything at all in the Bible that would support your belief that God is not truly Jesus' Father?

I have to say that I think we basically believe the same things do you? So many of these questions you ask cannot be answered. At least not in my mind.

Oh, there is no doubt in my mind that there are a great many things on which we agree. I think that the concept of God as described in the Creeds is not one of them.

Do you believe that Jesus is on equal par with God? Is part of God?

We do see a “hierarchy” in the Godhead. This is why the scriptures refer to the Father as “the Highest.” It is not a coincidence that the Bible refers to the first and second persons in the Godhead as “Father” and “Son.” God the Father was not Jesus’ Father only during His mortal life. That same relationship existed in the beginning, as it does today and as it will forever. The father-son relationship is, by nature, one where the son is subordinate to the father. Throughout the four gospel accounts of Jesus’ life, He speaks of His Father as being greater than He and even as being His “God.” There is absolutely no Biblical precedent whatsoever for the notion that this relationship existed only for a 34-year period of time.

It is, however, important to understand what we mean when we say the Son is subordinate to the Father. We understand that the Son holds the subordinate position in the relationship, not that He is an inferior being. As an example, a colonel holds an inferior position to a general, but they are not inferior beings. An ant, however, is an inferior being to a human.

The scriptures state that we are to honor Jesus as we do the Father. If we don’t, then we aren’t truly honoring the Father. If we deny that Jesus is God, we are denying who He is. He is His Father’s representative and His agent, but is equal to His Father in power, ability, mercy, justice, love, righteousness, etc.

As to whether Jesus is "part of God," I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean. We believe that He is part of the Godhead and that He is himself "God." He just isn't the same individual as His Father. They share all of the same divine attributes (such as perfect love, mercy, power, knowledge, etc.). They also share the name/title of God. They think and feel and act as one being. Their unity of will and purpose is absolute and is more perfect than we really can begin to imagine. About the only thing they don't share is a body. They each have their own.

 

[Quiddity]

I'm not quite getting your point, Victor. If you are saying that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "one substance," I want to know how this can be when a corporeal substance is the opposite to a non-corporeal substance. I don't even see how your question even figures into this discussion at all.

I don't see how you can even say that if you "didn't quite get my point". But to clarify and hopefully help get the discussion forward I will ask, do you believe a corporeal being is made of one substance?
If so, what is it made out of? If not, what is it made out of?
I feel comfortable noting that you do in fact believe we are made of 2 substances:
1. Physical matter
2. Spirit
Correct me if I'm wrong. :bow:

And, again, I a primarily interested in comparing the way different Trinitarians understand God. I hadn't wanted this thread to end up being one where we debated the validity of the doctrine.

Nor am I trying to do this Squirt. Since you are talking about substance, I decided to play along and take it as far as I can to further understand LDS Trinitarian theology.

I just wanted to see if all Trinitarians agreed on the nature of God, and so far it appears that they don't.

I really do hope your intention is well placed here Squirt. If your intention is to show that non-LDS can't explain the Trinity and don't necessarily agree, then I will tap out now and tell you that they may certainly disagree. Although it has been my experience that the Trinity only seems to be stumbling block to LDS. More then likely I come to agree with Protestants even though it may not appear to be so at first.

1. So if we were to see them we would see one being?

As Scott noted in the Trinity thread "no clue". Perhaps we would see Him as corporeal, perhaps not. Perhaps we'll see him project Himself as three persons. Beats me....

2. In what way are the Father and Son actually Father and Son?

In the sense that He played the part of both to show us how it's done...

3. Can a single substance be both corporeal and non-corporeal at the same time?

I want to make sure I understand what you mean by "single substance". Do you consider, let's say physical matter as a single substance?

 

[Buttercup]

But I believe they are "one," too, Buttercup. What I am trying to get at is how are they one? In what way are they one?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...All things were made by him...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:1, 3, 10, 14.

In this passage the Word (Jesus) was God. Read it really carefully and with prayer....it says it all.

Also........."If you realy knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him. John 14:7 NIV
​

 

[lunamoth]

My take on it is that we need to think about the Trinity as a sacred experience, rather than hammering out literal details. I think Buttercup makes a good point above.

And if the concept of the Trinity does not help unite us in love, it is better to not discuss it at all.

2 c,
lunamoth

 

[Quiddity]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...All things were made by him...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:1, 3, 10, 14.

In this passage the Word (Jesus) was God. Read it really carefully and with prayer....it says it all.

Also........."If you realy knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him. John 14:7 NIV​

Man, I wish I would have remembered that one. Nice one BC...

 

[Buttercup]

And if the concept of the Trinity does not help unite us in love, it is better to not discuss it at all.

This is very true :hug:...but we don't usually have that problem with Squirty....she's very gracious and truly is curious. I like our conversations.

 

[lunamoth]

This is very true :hug:...but we don't usually have that problem with Squirty....she's very gracious and truly is curious. I like our conversations.

Oh, I know. I love squirt too! Just feeling snarky today I guess. Sorry squirt--no offense intended. :flower2:

Carry on!
luna

 

[Polaris]

Unfortunately Squirt is out of town for the week, but I'm genuinely interested in this discussion so I hope you don't mind if I come on board.

I feel comfortable noting that you do in fact believe we are made of 2 substances:
1. Physical matter
2. Spirit

That's a fair statement -- we believe that in both our mortal and resurrected state we are made of a physical tangible body and a spirit. However "substance" is a pretty ambigious word that takes on different meanings depending on the context. Here's the issue: we believe that a being cannot be both corporeal and non-corporeal at the same time. In other words the same person or being cannot be here on earth with a physical body and yet remain up in heaven as a non-corporeal being at the same time. It is our understanding that the Trinitarian idea believes in this paradoxical existance. Is that a correct understanding -- do Trinitarians believe that a single being can be both corporeal and non-corporeal at the same time?

I really do hope your intention is well placed here Squirt. If your intention is to show that non-LDS can't explain the Trinity and don't necessarily agree, then I will tap out now and tell you that they may certainly disagree.

My interest, and I believe Squirt's too, is to better understand what being a "Trinitarian" actually means and learn if there really is a generally accepted and consistant definition.

Although it has been my experience that the Trinity only seems to be stumbling block to LDS.

I don't really see the Trinity as a stumbling block to the LDS. We simply don't believe the doctrine of the Trinity, at least the way it is commonly explained and portrayed in the council-based creeds. Again this, I believe, is part of the motivation for this thread -- to pin down what exactly the Trinitarian doctrine is.

 

[Buttercup]

Is that a correct understanding -- do Trinitarians believe that a single being can be both corporeal and non-corporeal at the same time?

From my knowledge...only God has done this in the form of Jesus Christ. Being both a corporeal form (Jesus) and non corporeal form (God) at the same time.

My interest, and I believe Squirt's too, is to better understand what being a "Trinitarian" actually means and learn if there really is a generally accepted and consistant definition.

I think we all have explained this? Could you please go reread thru the thread?

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

From my knowledge...only God has done this in the form of Jesus Christ. Being both a corporeal form (Jesus) and non corporeal form (God) at the same time.

where is this stated? the only place that i can thank of is when Jesus was baptized but i still understand it as three different beings...

 

[Polaris]

So just to be clear, I'll restate the questions and provide the "Trinitarian" response as I understand it. Let me know if I get something wrong.

1. If we were to see the Godhead would we see one or three beings?
2. How are the Father and Son actually Father and Son?
3. Can a single being be both corporeal and non-corporeal at the same time?

Trinitarian Response
1. Don't know.
2. They actually aren't Father and Son, they just took on those roles to show us the proper Father/Son relationship?
3. Yes.

I'd be interested to hear if there is anyone who claims to be a Trinitarian and has responses different than these just to see if these indeed represent universal trinitarian beliefs.

Now here are the LDS responses to those same questions, not to debate who is right and who is wrong, just to point out where LDS beliefs differ from Trinitarians, at least according to the Trinitarian definition that we have established here.

LDS Response
1. Three - the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate beings.
2. The Son is actually the Father's son. We all, including Jesus Christ, are sons and daughters of God the Father.
3. No.