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QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
This is not about what seems logical to you because God does not operate according to logic, God transcends logic. Hypothetically, since God is omnipotent, God COULD communicate His message to everyone in the world, but humans could not understand it because they do not have that capability because they do not have a divine mind.

God did not give us all a divine mind because He chose not to, no doubt because He never planned to communicate directly to us ordinary humans.

IF god didn't want to give us all the same abilities he gave special messengers so we could understand his message, why didn't he just give HIMSELF the same abilities that he gives to his special messengers to convey his message directly to common mortals?

As I just said above, God DOES have the ability to convey His message to ordinary humans, but ordinary humans do not have the ability to understand God’s message, so the LIMITATION is not a limitation God has, it is a limitation that ordinary humans have.

Now let’s talk logic. What reason on earth would God have to communicate the SAME exact message to everyone in the world (even if everyone could understand it? I have heard all the arguments as to why atheists think God should do that so I doubt you will surprise me with a new argument, but go ahead and then I will see if it is the same as I have heard before, for which I have answers memorized.

Another question is why shouldn’t God communicate one message to one Messenger in every age and allow Him to disseminate that message to everyone? That sounds a lot more efficient to me than communicating the same message to everyone. Then of course we would have to imagine what would happen if everyone got the SAME message from God. (This is not even taking into consideration what I said before, that everyone is not worthy of getting their own personal message and that that would make it too easy for people to believe in God.)

Aside from this, we have a slight detail I failed to mention before: Baha’u’llah wrote 15,000 tablets, so even if everyone COULD understand what was revealed to Baha’u’llah, is everyone going to be able to write all that down to refer to later? And then what would happen if that was even possible? Would everyone interpret the same message the exact same way? That would be impossible.

So just imagine 7.8 billion people all getting this message from God and interpreting it differently. What did God mean by that? Oh I dunno John, what do you think? And so on and so forth. Can you imagine how much conflict that would cause between all the people in the world who could not get on the same page regarding what God meant by what He said? Even though there is one Bible, look at how many different Christian churches there are, but at least those of the same denominations agree on the basics because they are all reading the same Bible. Islam also has many sects but at least they agree on the basics because they are all reading the same book, the Qur’an.

But the point of my free ride analogy was that they have to do all the work, the professor is not going to do their homework for them. The professor is not going to go online and do their research although he might provide some references. My other point was that not everyone can make the cut and get a Phd, because there are requirements, so why should everyone make the cut and get a message from God, why shouldn’t there be requirements?

I already explained the pitfalls if God giving you a message directly.

That is exactly what God did; He provided evidence that He exists by sending Messengers, but He did not reveal all knowledge about Himself and we certainly do not know everything there is to know about God, we only know very little..

I said that a person would have to have “some faith” that God might exist in order to embark upon the journey and start searching for God and His message. I did not say that they would BELIEVE on faith that God exists with no evidence because that would be blind faith.

Moreover, if you already KNOW that something exists, why would you be seeking it? So if you already KNOW that God exists, why would you be seeking God? What you want is for God to prove that He exists to you so you will not have to seek, but it doesn’t work that way, not anymore than you are going to get a PhD without doing lots of research.

In my opinion a LAZY seeker is impatient and expects God to hand deliver verifiable evidence, whereas a sincere seeker patiently looks for the evidence and after he finds the evidence God had provided, the Messenger, he realizes that God exists and he chooses to believe in God. A sincere seeker does not employ a leap of faith and fool himself into believing that what he already wanted to find is actually what's there; rather, he does not make any assumptions until he has found the evidence and investigated it for himself. In the Baha’i Faith we call this the Independent Investigation of Truth.

How to Independently Investigate the Truth

(Continued on next post)


This is not about what seems logical to you because God does not operate according to logic, God transcends logic. Hypothetically, since God is omnipotent, God COULD communicate His message to everyone in the world, but humans could not understand it because they do not have that capability because they do not have a divine mind.

Oh I disagree. This is 100% about what seems logical to me. IF this god created me with a brain that uses logic and reason in order to determine what is true and what isn't THEN this god would have to be lacking in intelligence if it expected me to accept some god that doesn't operate according to logic or reason. Apparently god screwed up by giving me a brain that requires logic and reason. That seems like a major flaw in the system to me.

IF god didn't want to give us all the same abilities he gave special messengers so we could understand his message, why didn't he just give HIMSELF the same abilities that he gives to his special messengers to convey his message directly to common mortals?

As I just said above, God DOES have the ability to convey His message to ordinary humans, but ordinary humans do not have the ability to understand God’s message, so the LIMITATION is not a limitation God has, it is a limitation that ordinary humans have.

Sorry, but you didn't answer the question. You say that normal humans don't have the ability to understand god's message. So god created special messengers who CAN understand the message, but didn't want to give everyone that same ability because he never intended to communicate directly with everyone... for SOME reason... but you have no idea what it is. Okay... but god ALSO gave his special messengers ANOTHER special ability... that being the ability to do something that even God CANNOT do... that being the ability to convey his message in a way that normal humans CAN understand. So why did god not just give HIMSELF the ability to convey his message in a way that normal humans can understand?

Now let’s talk logic. What reason on earth would God have to communicate the SAME exact message to everyone in the world (even if everyone could understand it? I have heard all the arguments as to why atheists think God should do that so I doubt you will surprise me with a new argument, but go ahead and then I will see if it is the same as I have heard before, for which I have answers memorized.

Why would you possibly think that god would communicate the EXACT SAME message to everyone? That's the beauty of INDIVUAL communication... god would be able to alter his message so that it would be perfectly clear to each and every person who heard it, all based upon what that specific individual would require in order to understand the message perfectly.

And how exactly has this problem been solved by sending messengers, since they each have the exact same message for everyone?

So just imagine 7.8 billion people all getting this message from God and interpreting it differently. What did God mean by that? Oh I dunno John, what do you think? And so on and so forth. Can you imagine how much conflict that would cause between all the people in the world who could not get on the same page regarding what God meant by what He said?

And that's PRECISELY what we have when people are expected to all read the exact same message from a messenger... what did the messenger mean by that? I don't know, what do you think? I don't have to IMAGINE how much conflict it would create, I just have to look at the world in which I live. We have 7.8 billion people all getting these messages from the special messengers who can't get on the same page regarding what god meant by what the messengers say he said. How is this SO MUCH better than if god had simply given his message to each person individually in a way that they COULD completely understand... instead of the one-size-fits-all model of using divine messengers?
 
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QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
This is not about what seems logical to you because God does not operate according to logic, God transcends logic. Hypothetically, since God is omnipotent, God COULD communicate His message to everyone in the world, but humans could not understand it because they do not have that capability because they do not have a divine mind.

God did not give us all a divine mind because He chose not to, no doubt because He never planned to communicate directly to us ordinary humans.

IF god didn't want to give us all the same abilities he gave special messengers so we could understand his message, why didn't he just give HIMSELF the same abilities that he gives to his special messengers to convey his message directly to common mortals?

As I just said above, God DOES have the ability to convey His message to ordinary humans, but ordinary humans do not have the ability to understand God’s message, so the LIMITATION is not a limitation God has, it is a limitation that ordinary humans have.

Now let’s talk logic. What reason on earth would God have to communicate the SAME exact message to everyone in the world (even if everyone could understand it? I have heard all the arguments as to why atheists think God should do that so I doubt you will surprise me with a new argument, but go ahead and then I will see if it is the same as I have heard before, for which I have answers memorized.

Another question is why shouldn’t God communicate one message to one Messenger in every age and allow Him to disseminate that message to everyone? That sounds a lot more efficient to me than communicating the same message to everyone. Then of course we would have to imagine what would happen if everyone got the SAME message from God. (This is not even taking into consideration what I said before, that everyone is not worthy of getting their own personal message and that that would make it too easy for people to believe in God.)

Aside from this, we have a slight detail I failed to mention before: Baha’u’llah wrote 15,000 tablets, so even if everyone COULD understand what was revealed to Baha’u’llah, is everyone going to be able to write all that down to refer to later? And then what would happen if that was even possible? Would everyone interpret the same message the exact same way? That would be impossible.

So just imagine 7.8 billion people all getting this message from God and interpreting it differently. What did God mean by that? Oh I dunno John, what do you think? And so on and so forth. Can you imagine how much conflict that would cause between all the people in the world who could not get on the same page regarding what God meant by what He said? Even though there is one Bible, look at how many different Christian churches there are, but at least those of the same denominations agree on the basics because they are all reading the same Bible. Islam also has many sects but at least they agree on the basics because they are all reading the same book, the Qur’an.

But the point of my free ride analogy was that they have to do all the work, the professor is not going to do their homework for them. The professor is not going to go online and do their research although he might provide some references. My other point was that not everyone can make the cut and get a Phd, because there are requirements, so why should everyone make the cut and get a message from God, why shouldn’t there be requirements?

I already explained the pitfalls if God giving you a message directly.

That is exactly what God did; He provided evidence that He exists by sending Messengers, but He did not reveal all knowledge about Himself and we certainly do not know everything there is to know about God, we only know very little..

I said that a person would have to have “some faith” that God might exist in order to embark upon the journey and start searching for God and His message. I did not say that they would BELIEVE on faith that God exists with no evidence because that would be blind faith.

Moreover, if you already KNOW that something exists, why would you be seeking it? So if you already KNOW that God exists, why would you be seeking God? What you want is for God to prove that He exists to you so you will not have to seek, but it doesn’t work that way, not anymore than you are going to get a PhD without doing lots of research.

In my opinion a LAZY seeker is impatient and expects God to hand deliver verifiable evidence, whereas a sincere seeker patiently looks for the evidence and after he finds the evidence God had provided, the Messenger, he realizes that God exists and he chooses to believe in God. A sincere seeker does not employ a leap of faith and fool himself into believing that what he already wanted to find is actually what's there; rather, he does not make any assumptions until he has found the evidence and investigated it for himself. In the Baha’i Faith we call this the Independent Investigation of Truth.

How to Independently Investigate the Truth

(Continued on next post)


But the point of my free ride analogy was that they have to do all the work, the professor is not going to do their homework for them. The professor is not going to go online and do their research although he might provide some references. My other point was that not everyone can make the cut and get a Phd, because there are requirements, so why should everyone make the cut and get a message from God, why shouldn’t there be requirements?

I already explained the pitfalls if God giving you a message directly.


Who said ANYTGHING about the professor doing all of their work for them? Do you think that when a professor hands out a syllabus on the first day that indicates everything the professor expects you to understand by the end of the course that just because you know what the course is about that you don't have to do any work for the class? So how would god providing evidence that he exists mean that I somehow don't have to do the homework to figure out what message this god wants me to have? Just like revealing that physics is a real science doesn't in any way mean that students don't have to do the hard work to understand how that science works. Sorry, but it sounds like your just coming up with excuses for why god refuses to provide evidence that he exists.

And no, you really haven't explained why it's better to get the message second hand than to receive it directly. In fact, delivering the message individually enables the message to be designed to suit each and every individual, instead of using the one-size-fits-all method of using messengers.

That is exactly what God did; He provided evidence that He exists by sending Messengers, but He did not reveal all knowledge about Himself and we certainly do not know everything there is to know about God, we only know very little..

Which is absolutely worthless if he didn't also provide everyone with clear evidence that his messengers actually exists and which of the hundred of thousands of claimed messengers are the correct ones. These messengers haven't simplified anything...they've just added another layer to the mysterious riddle

I said that a person would have to have “some faith” that God might exist in order to embark upon the journey and start searching for God and His message. I did not say that they would BELIEVE on faith that God exists with no evidence because that would be blind faith.

I accept that it's POSSIBLE that there MIGHT be a god... but that's not based on any faith. It's based on my understanding that virtually anything is POSSIBLE... but of course that doesn't mean that it's in any way probable. For instance, I conceded that it's POSSIBLE that there MIGHT be a Westinghouse toaster in orbit around Venus at this very moment... however, I find that it's VERY improbable that there actually is. In fact, in order for me to invest the time and energy into investigating this toaster in order around Venus I would have to have at least SOME faith that the toaster actually exists. So, just like I'm not about to devote my life to seeking the TRUTH bout the Westinghouse toaster until I have some verifiable evidence that this proposed toaster actually does exist, I'm not about to devote my life to seeking out this proposed god being without verifiable evidence that this god actually exists. Since faith is NOT a reliable path to truth I don't take ANY serious claim on faith.


Moreover, if you already KNOW that something exists, why would you be seeking it? So if you already KNOW that God exists, why would you be seeking God? What you want is for God to prove that He exists to you so you will not have to seek, but it doesn’t work that way, not anymore than you are going to get a PhD without doing lots of research.

Did you really think that through before you wrote it? You say that as if having evidence that something is real automatically provides you with all the knowledge you could possible want about that something. That's like asking, if I have verifiable evidence that Bigfoot actually exists, why would I be searching for Bigfoot? Or, if I have evidence that a science called physics exists, why would I seek an understanding of that science? You say that as if having evidence that something is real automatically provides you with all the knowledge you could possible want about that something.

In fact, it's the LACK of any verifiable evidence for god that keeps me from seeking this god. IF I had at least SOME verifiable evidence that a god exists THEN I would be eager to invest as much time and energy as was needed to learn more about this fantastical being. But it's just like the proposed toaster in orbit around Venus. Until I get at least SOME evidence that this toaster it even there, I'm not going to invest time and energy into finding out what model the toaster is.

In my opinion a LAZY seeker is impatient and expects God to hand deliver verifiable evidence, whereas a sincere seeker patiently looks for the evidence and after he finds the evidence God had provided, the Messenger, he realizes that God exists and he chooses to believe in God. A sincere seeker does not employ a leap of faith and fool himself into believing that what he already wanted to find is actually what's there; rather, he does not make any assumptions until he has found the evidence and investigated it for himself. In the Baha’i Faith we call this the Independent Investigation of Truth.

Does this logic apply to any other aspect of your life? Am I a lazy and impatient seeker if I require at least SOME evidence for a toaster in orbit around Venus before investing my efforts into finding evidence for said toaster? Are police officers lazy and impatient because they don't spend their time and effort investigating crimes that they have no evidence even occurred? If you wouldn't use that method when seeking any other truth aspect of your life, why would you use it when seeking truth about a proposed god?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
This is not about what seems logical to you because God does not operate according to logic, God transcends logic. Hypothetically, since God is omnipotent, God COULD communicate His message to everyone in the world, but humans could not understand it because they do not have that capability because they do not have a divine mind.

Oh I disagree. This is 100% about what seems logical to me. IF this god created me with a brain that uses logic and reason in order to determine what is true and what isn't THEN this god would have to be lacking in intelligence if it expected me to accept some god that doesn't operate according to logic or reason. Apparently god screwed up by giving me a brain that requires logic and reason. That seems like a major flaw in the system to me.
That argument will not fly because we were all created with a brain that has the same capacity to use logic and reason in order to determine what is true and what isn't and my brain says what I believe is logical. So who is to say that you are more logical than me? I mean I believe God is operating according to logic and reason and you do not believe that, so who is right? Do you understand the problem?

The best you can say is that it does not seem logical to you, but to say that God that doesn't operate according to logic or reason is patently illogical. I mean how could the creator of the whole universe not know how to reason properly? It makes more sense to say you do not understand why God operates the way He does and try to understand why God operates that way.
IF god didn't want to give us all the same abilities he gave special messengers so we could understand his message, why didn't he just give HIMSELF the same abilities that he gives to his special messengers to convey his message directly to common mortals?

As I just said above, God DOES have the ability to convey His message to ordinary humans, but ordinary humans do not have the ability to understand God’s message, so the LIMITATION is not a limitation God has, it is a limitation that ordinary humans have.

Sorry, but you didn't answer the question. You say that normal humans don't have the ability to understand god's message. So god created special messengers who CAN understand the message, but didn't want to give everyone that same ability because he never intended to communicate directly with everyone... for SOME reason... but you have no idea what it is.
God does not have to give humans any reason for what He chooses to do. It makes sense is that God did not want to communicate directly with everyone, only with His Messengers, because God knew it is unnecessary for everyone to get their own message since they can get the message from then Messenger. Please bear in mind that what humans think is necessary is just what they think, but nobody can know as much as an all-knowing God about what humans need.
Okay... but god ALSO gave his special messengers ANOTHER special ability... that being the ability to do something that even God CANNOT do... that being the ability to convey his message in a way that normal humans CAN understand. So why did god not just give HIMSELF the ability to convey his message in a way that normal humans can understand?
I already told you that God DOES have the ability to convey His message to ordinary humans, but ordinary humans do not have the ability to understand God’s message, so the LIMITATION is not a limitation God has, it is a limitation that ordinary humans have. Are you asking why God does not have the ability to MAKE normal humans understand even though their brains were not created with the ability to understand? Why would God want to do that?

Messengers are mediators between God and man because they are both human and divine so they can understand God and man and bridge the gap between God and man.
Now let’s talk logic. What reason on earth would God have to communicate the SAME exact message to everyone in the world (even if everyone could understand it? I have heard all the arguments as to why atheists think God should do that so I doubt you will surprise me with a new argument, but go ahead and then I will see if it is the same as I have heard before, for which I have answers memorized.

Why would you possibly think that god would communicate the EXACT SAME message to everyone? That's the beauty of INDIVUAL communication... god would be able to alter his message so that it would be perfectly clear to each and every person who heard it, all based upon what that specific individual would require in order to understand the message perfectly.
You are living in some kind of fantasy-land. Why on earth should God so that? God is not a short order cook cooking up burgers to suit individual tastes. God is not there tom serve humans, humans are here to serve God, so you have everything backwards. God gives humans what they need, not what they want. God’s goal is not that everyone understands Him perfectly just because they might want to. Besides that, it would be much too easy if God spoon fed everyone a message that they could understand perfectly. You might want easy but God doesn’t want that, so you won’t get it since God is in charge.
And how exactly has this problem been solved by sending messengers, since they each have the exact same message for everyone?
What problem? God wants everyone to get the same message and that is why He only reveals His message to the Messenger. That forces us to get the message from the Messenger or not get it at all, and the same message gets us all in the same page, which is exactly what God wants so we can have unity and harmony rather than disagreement and discord.
So just imagine 7.8 billion people all getting this message from God and interpreting it differently. What did God mean by that? Oh I dunno John, what do you think? And so on and so forth. Can you imagine how much conflict that would cause between all the people in the world who could not get on the same page regarding what God meant by what He said?

And that's PRECISELY what we have when people are expected to all read the exact same message from a messenger... what did the messenger mean by that? I don't know, what do you think? I don't have to IMAGINE how much conflict it would create, I just have to look at the world in which I live. We have 7.8 billion people all getting these messages from the special messengers who can't get on the same page regarding what god meant by what the messengers say he said.
But for the most part religious people ARE on the same page. Christians agree with Christians, Jews agree with Jews, Muslims agree with Muslims, Baha’is agree with Baha’is. There is no reason why everyone has to interpret their scriptures exactly the same way and believe exactly the same things. People are individuals. The Baha’i goal is unity in diversity and that people can live in harmony in spite of their differences.

The primary reason people are not on the same page is because there are so many different religions in the world. The central theme of Baha’u’llah’s teachings is that humanity is a single race which should now be united in one global society, so world unity is the final stage in the evolution of humanity. Baha’u’llah wrote what God has ordained that eventually all the religions will unite and there will be one common, but this is a process that will take a long time; it won’t happen overnight, given how divided humanity has been for thousands of years.
How is this SO MUCH better than if god had simply given his message to each person individually in a way that they COULD completely understand... instead of the one-size-fits-all model of using divine messengers?
If everyone got their own individual message, nobody would ever be on the same page and there could never be unity and harmony between people, as I described above. That would not be in the best interest of those individuals or for the whole of society. People do not live in a vacuum; they are social creatures so they have to get along with each other.

Aside from that, there is no need to understand God’s message perfectly. Life is a process and we can read and learn more and more all throughout life. There is no need to understand everything all at once. That is not the case in other aspects of our lives, live we grow throughout life, so why would religion be any different?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But the point of my free ride analogy was that they have to do all the work, the professor is not going to do their homework for them. The professor is not going to go online and do their research although he might provide some references. My other point was that not everyone can make the cut and get a Phd, because there are requirements, so why should everyone make the cut and get a message from God, why shouldn’t there be requirements?

I already explained the pitfalls if God giving you a message directly.


Who said ANYTHING about the professor doing all of their work for them? Do you think that when a professor hands out a syllabus on the first day that indicates everything the professor expects you to understand by the end of the course that just because you know what the course is about that you don't have to do any work for the class? So how would god providing evidence that he exists mean that I somehow don't have to do the homework to figure out what message this god wants me to have?
God has provided the evidence that He exists and that evidence is the Messenger He sent. Now God wants you to do your homework by looking at the message that He revealed.
Just like revealing that physics is a real science doesn't in any way mean that students don't have to do the hard work to understand how that science works. Sorry, but it sounds like your just coming up with excuses for why god refuses to provide evidence that he exists.
No, the evidence is the evidence, you just do not like that evidence and you want something else, but we do not always get what we want in life, and in God-related matters we only get what God chooses to give us.
And no, you really haven't explained why it's better to get the message second hand than to receive it directly. In fact, delivering the message individually enables the message to be designed to suit each and every individual, instead of using the one-size-fits-all method of using messengers.
I have done more explaining than you will ever get from any other believer so if you still do not understand I guess you never will. Not only have I explained why God using Messengers is better for everyone, I have explained why it is the only way God can communicate such that humans can understand.

God does not want the message to be designed to suit each and every individual, YOU want that, but you are not the one in charge of message delivery so what you want does not matter. I have to say that is very self-centered, thinking about only what you want as opposed to what humanity needs in order to survive and thrive and move on to the next stage of its spiritual evolution. What you want would never accomplish God’s Purpose for man.
That is exactly what God did; He provided evidence that He exists by sending Messengers, but He did not reveal all knowledge about Himself and we certainly do not know everything there is to know about God, we only know very little..

Which is absolutely worthless if he didn't also provide everyone with clear evidence that his messengers actually exists and which of the hundred of thousands of claimed messengers are the correct ones. These messengers haven't simplified anything...they've just added another layer to the mysterious riddle.
Baha’u’llah revealed everything we need to know in this age, so it does not matter that there are many claimed messengers. The fact that everyone cannot verify that He was a Messenger of God is just the way it works; some people will know and others won’t, but I believe that eventually everyone will know.

It is worthless to YOU, but it is not worthless to everyone else in the world, it is very valuable to those who understand what they have.
I said that a person would have to have “some faith” that God might exist in order to embark upon the journey and start searching for God and His message. I did not say that they would BELIEVE on faith that God exists with no evidence because that would be blind faith.

I accept that it's POSSIBLE that there MIGHT be a god... but that's not based on any faith. It's based on my understanding that virtually anything is POSSIBLE... but of course that doesn't mean that it's in any way probable. For instance, I conceded that it's POSSIBLE that there MIGHT be a Westinghouse toaster in orbit around Venus at this very moment... however, I find that it's VERY improbable that there actually is. In fact, in order for me to invest the time and energy into investigating this toaster in order around Venus I would have to have at least SOME faith that the toaster actually exists. So, just like I'm not about to devote my life to seeking the TRUTH bout the Westinghouse toaster until I have some verifiable evidence that this proposed toaster actually does exist, I'm not about to devote my life to seeking out this proposed god being without verifiable evidence that this god actually exists. Since faith is NOT a reliable path to truth I don't take ANY serious claim on faith.
I would hardly equate the existence of a Westinghouse toaster to the existence of God just because you think the probability is about the same. If a toaster exists it has no implications for your life but if God exists it has major implications. I never suggested you devote your while life to searching for God and if you do not think it is important you don’t have to spend any time on it. We spend time on what we consider important.
Moreover, if you already KNOW that something exists, why would you be seeking it? So if you already KNOW that God exists, why would you be seeking God? What you want is for God to prove that He exists to you so you will not have to seek, but it doesn’t work that way, not anymore than you are going to get a PhD without doing lots of research.

Did you really think that through before you wrote it? You say that as if having evidence that something is real automatically provides you with all the knowledge you could possible want about that something. That's like asking, if I have verifiable evidence that Bigfoot actually exists, why would I be searching for Bigfoot? Or, if I have evidence that a science called physics exists, why would I seek an understanding of that science? You say that as if having evidence that something is real automatically provides you with all the knowledge you could possible want about that something.
I meant exacyly what I wrote: if you already KNOW that something exists, why would you be seeking it? So if you already KNOW that God exists, why would you be seeking God? I am not saying that having evidence that something is real automatically provides you with all the knowledge you could possibly want about that something. What you want is proof that God exists and then you are willing to look for more knowledge about God, but that is not the way God set it up. God requires that we recognize His Messenger who is the evidence that He exists and then you will be able to obtain the knowledge about God from what the Messenger wrote.
In fact, it's the LACK of any verifiable evidence for god that keeps me from seeking this god. IF I had at least SOME verifiable evidence that a god exists THEN I would be eager to invest as much time and energy as was needed to learn more about this fantastical being. But it's just like the proposed toaster in orbit around Venus. Until I get at least SOME evidence that this toaster it even there, I'm not going to invest time and energy into finding out what model the toaster is.
So be it. You are not going to get the kind of verifiable evidence you WANT because you are expecting some kind of evidence that simply does not exist, so unless the Messenger becomes verifiable evidence for you as it has become for me, game over.
In my opinion a LAZY seeker is impatient and expects God to hand deliver verifiable evidence, whereas a sincere seeker patiently looks for the evidence and after he finds the evidence God had provided, the Messenger, he realizes that God exists and he chooses to believe in God. A sincere seeker does not employ a leap of faith and fool himself into believing that what he already wanted to find is actually what's there; rather, he does not make any assumptions until he has found the evidence and investigated it for himself. In the Baha’i Faith we call this the Independent Investigation of Truth.

Does this logic apply to any other aspect of your life? Am I a lazy and impatient seeker if I require at least SOME evidence for a toaster in orbit around Venus before investing my efforts into finding evidence for said toaster? Are police officers lazy and impatient because they don't spend their time and effort investigating crimes that they have no evidence even occurred? If you wouldn't use that method when seeking any other truth aspect of your life, why would you use it when seeking truth about a proposed god?
There is SOME evidence but you do not consider it evidence and that is the whole crux of the issue. You do not want some evidence, you want proof. Police officers start investigating crimes as soon as they suspect that a crime has been committed, and later they find the evidence.

As I have said repeatedly, I HAVE the evidence I require to know that God exists. I do not have to look anymore.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
That argument will not fly because we were all created with a brain that has the same capacity to use logic and reason in order to determine what is true and what isn't and my brain says what I believe is logical. So who is to say that you are more logical than me? I mean I believe God is operating according to logic and reason and you do not believe that, so who is right? Do you understand the problem?

T

What problem? God wants everyone to get the same message and that is why He only reveals His message to the Messenger. That forces us to get the message from the Messenger or not get it at all, and the same message gets us all in the same page, which is exactly what God wants so we can have unity and harmony rather than disagreement and discord.


Aside from that, there is no need to understand God’s message perfectly. Life is a process and we can read and learn more and more all throughout life. There is no need to understand everything all at once. That is not the case in other aspects of our lives, live we grow throughout life, so why would religion be any different?

That argument will not fly because we were all created with a brain that has the same capacity to use logic and reason in order to determine what is true and what isn't and my brain says what I believe is logical. So who is to say that you are more logical than me? I mean I believe God is operating according to logic and reason and you do not believe that, so who is right? Do you understand the problem?

The best you can say is that it does not seem logical to you, but to say that God that doesn't operate according to logic or reason is patently illogical. I mean how could the creator of the whole universe not know how to reason properly? It makes more sense to say you do not understand why God operates the way He does and try to understand why God operates that way.



Sorry, suggesting that we all have the same capacity for logic and reason simply doesn’t fly. Otherwise we wouldn’t have people claiming that the Earth is flat or that it’s only existed for 6 to 10 thousand years. You use a form of logic, I’m sure, but clearly it isn’t the same type of logic and reason that I use. Otherwise you wouldn’t find the concept that god can’t convey his message directly to people, but he can somehow convey it to special messengers who then somehow can pass the message on to mere mortals in a way they can understand to be logical in any way shape or form.


Again, if you think there’s a ‘logic’ for humans and a separate type of ‘logic’ for your god then clearly we don’t view logic and reason in the same way. You see, in my mind it’s complete illogical to suggest that god has his OWN separate kind of logic. Logic and reason simply are… they apply to everyone equally.


God does not have to give humans any reason for what He chooses to do. It makes sense is that God did not want to communicate directly with everyone, only with His Messengers, because God knew it is unnecessary for everyone to get their own message since they can get the message from then Messenger. Please bear in mind that what humans think is necessary is just what they think, but nobody can know as much as an all-knowing God about what humans need.


Here again we see the enormous difference between what you consider to be logical and reasonable and what I consider to be logical and reasonable. Of course your god doesn’t HAVE to do anything, but my mind works on logic and reason and if your god refuses to provide REASON for what he chooses then he KNOWS that the way MY mind functions, I will NEVER accept it. Thus if god refuses to use another method then OBVIOUISLY god has no desire for me to get his message. IF he’s omnipotent then he KNOWS that the way my brain functions it’s not possible for me to accept any message given to me second hand through messengers. He KNOWS that I can’t force myself to have ‘faith’ that he exists enough to invest the time and energy into getting the evidence of his existence via old writings by supposed messengers


I already told you that God DOES have the ability to convey His message to ordinary humans, but ordinary humans do not have the ability to understand God’s message, so the LIMITATION is not a limitation God has, it is a limitation that ordinary humans have. Are you asking why God does not have the ability to MAKE normal humans understand even though their brains were not created with the ability to understand? Why would God want to do that?

Messengers are mediators between God and man because they are both human and divine so they can understand God and man and bridge the gap between God and man.



You clearly don’t use the same form of logic and reason that I do if you consider what you just wrote to be logical and reasonable.

1. God CAN convey his message to mortal, but he CAN’T do it in a way that mortals can understand.

2. God CAN create divine beings capable of understanding his message, but he chose not to create mortals with the same ability.

3. SOMEHOW the divine messengers he created have an ability that’s SUPERIOR to god… THEY somehow have the ability to convey god’s message in a way that mortals CAN understand.

Currently my brain that uses logic and reason is reeling in an attempt to make any logical sense out of such a claim.


You are living in some kind of fantasy-land. Why on earth should God so that? God is not a short order cook cooking up burgers to suit individual tastes. God is not there tom serve humans, humans are here to serve God, so you have everything backwards. God gives humans what they need, not what they want. God’s goal is not that everyone understands Him perfectly just because they might want to. Besides that, it would be much too easy if God spoon fed everyone a message that they could understand perfectly. You might want easy but God doesn’t want that, so you won’t get it since God is in charge.


Why on Earth would god NOT do that? No, he’s not a short-order cook… according to you he’s an ALL powerful OMNIPOTENT being. Providing an individualized message for everyone would be as easy for him as snapping his metaphorical fingers.


And then we go to that ridiculous idea that god doesn’t want his message to be so easily understood… that somehow actually teaching a person in a manner that they can understand is somehow ‘spoon feeding’ them the information. Any decent teacher knows that they must be prepared to teach their lessons in more than one fashion, because every student has different learning styles. Any teacher who uses a one-size-fits-all teaching method has no genuine desire for all of his students to learn. If he doesn’t want everyone to get his message that fine… I’m clearly one of them. But don’t try and sell me on the idea that he really does want me to have the message, but he’s not going to make any effort whatsoever to present it to me in a way I can actually comprehend and accept.


Lastly, telling me that it’s the way it is because ‘god is in charge’ is yet another example of putting the cart before the horse. You’ve yet to provide any reliable evidence that your god even exists, let alone that this god is in charge. So arguing that god doesn’t have to explain or be logical because god’s in charge is really no argument at all. FIRST firmly establish that your god exists THEN you can try and argue that this god is in charge.


What problem? God wants everyone to get the same message and that is why He only reveals His message to the Messenger. That forces us to get the message from the Messenger or not get it at all, and the same message gets us all in the same page, which is exactly what God wants so we can have unity and harmony rather than disagreement and discord.


I guess that all depends on how you define success. If having less than 5 million out of 7.5 billion of your creations accurately receiving your important message is sufficient, then I guess there is no problem.


But for the most part religious people ARE on the same page. Christians agree with Christians, Jews agree with Jews, Muslims agree with Muslims, Baha’is agree with Baha’is. There is no reason why everyone has to interpret their scriptures exactly the same way and believe exactly the same things. People are individuals. The Baha’i goal is unity in diversity and that people can live in harmony in spite of their differences.

The primary reason people are not on the same page is because there are so many different religions in the world. The central theme of Baha’u’llah’s teachings is that humanity is a single race which should now be united in one global society, so world unity is the final stage in the evolution of humanity. Baha’u’llah wrote what God has ordained that eventually all the religions will unite and there will be one common, but this is a process that will take a long time; it won’t happen overnight, given how divided humanity has been for thousands of years.



If you say so… from my perspective religions are in just as much conflict with one another as ever. And how is it that so many of these so called ‘true’ religions teach that anyone attempting to introduce them to a NEW religion are actually agents of Satan attempting to draw them away from the one TRUE religion? If god knows all religions are basically the same. Why would he allow so many of the true religions to receive a message so contrary to what is true?


If everyone got their own individual message, nobody would ever be on the same page and there could never be unity and harmony between people, as I described above. That would not be in the best interest of those individuals or for the whole of society. People do not live in a vacuum; they are social creatures so they have to get along with each other.

Aside from that, there is no need to understand God’s message perfectly. Life is a process and we can read and learn more and more all throughout life. There is no need to understand everything all at once. That is not the case in other aspects of our lives, live we grow throughout life, so why would religion be any different?


Who’s talking about giving DIFFERENT messages? What we’re talking about is giving the SAME message in different ways so that EVEYONE can understand. It’s just like the psychics instructor who has to keep in mind that different students learn differently. Just because a visual learner learns best during while reading text and an audio learning learns best when listening to lectures doesn’t mean that what each student learned is different… it just means the best method for teaching the same information was different for each student.


No one is asking for god to give me the ENTIRE message all at once. How about if he just starts with providing me with the evidence I need to accept that he actually exists? And I mean providing it in a way that accommodates my learning style. It’s just like learning psychics. I don’t need to know EVERYTHING about the subject before I invest the time and effort into learning it… but I do at LEAST need evidence that it’s a REAL area of study before I begin putting in the time and effort.


It’s that cart before the horse thing again.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
God has provided the evidence that He exists and that evidence is the Messenger He sent. Now God wants you to do your homework by looking at the message that He revealed.

No, the evidence is the evidence, you just do not like that evidence and you want something else, but we do not always get what we want in life, and in God-related matters we only get what God chooses to give us.

I have done more explaining than you will ever get from any other believer so if you still do not understand I guess you never will. Not only have I explained why God using Messengers is better for everyone, I have explained why it is the only way God can communicate such that humans can understand.

God does not want the message to be designed to suit each and every individual, YOU want that, but you are not the one in charge of message delivery so what you want does not matter. I have to say that is very self-centered, thinking about only what you want as opposed to what humanity needs in order to survive and thrive and move on to the next stage of its spiritual evolution. What you want would never accomplish God’s Purpose for man.

Baha’u’llah revealed everything we need to know in this age, so it does not matter that there are many claimed messengers. The fact that everyone cannot verify that He was a Messenger of God is just the way it works; some people will know and others won’t, but I believe that eventually everyone will know.

It is worthless to YOU, but it is not worthless to everyone else in the world, it is very valuable to those who understand what they have.

I would hardly equate the existence of a Westinghouse toaster to the existence of God just because you think the probability is about the same. If a toaster exists it has no implications for your life but if God exists it has major implications. I never suggested you devote your while life to searching for God and if you do not think it is important you don’t have to spend any time on it. We spend time on what we consider important.

I meant exacyly what I wrote: if you already KNOW that something exists, why would you be seeking it? So if you already KNOW that God exists, why would you be seeking God? I am not saying that having evidence that something is real automatically provides you with all the knowledge you could possibly want about that something. What you want is proof that God exists and then you are willing to look for more knowledge about God, but that is not the way God set it up. God requires that we recognize His Messenger who is the evidence that He exists and then you will be able to obtain the knowledge about God from what the Messenger wrote.

So be it. You are not going to get the kind of verifiable evidence you WANT because you are expecting some kind of evidence that simply does not exist, so unless the Messenger becomes verifiable evidence for you as it has become for me, game over.

There is SOME evidence but you do not consider it evidence and that is the whole crux of the issue. You do not want some evidence, you want proof. Police officers start investigating crimes as soon as they suspect that a crime has been committed, and later they find the evidence.

As I have said repeatedly, I HAVE the evidence I require to know that God exists. I do not have to look anymore.

God has provided the evidence that He exists and that evidence is the Messenger He sent. Now God wants you to do your homework by looking at the message that He revealed.



Actually no, god hasn’t provided me with anything. Thus far I have had numerous fallible human beings CLAIM that various supposed divine messengers have a message from god for me, but I’m still waiting for ANYTHING at all from this proposed god being. And I’ve already wasted far too much of my time on ‘doing my homework’ by studying the messages from other messengers that people have claimed came from god with a promise that if I do so the evidence I require to believe in god will be revealed… only to find that it never does.


So it’s like that old saying… fool me once, shame on you… fool me twice, shame on me. So now instead of buying into the illogical claim that IF I just ‘do my homework’ all will be revealed, I’m waiting for the evidence that god exists BEFORE I waste my time doing the homework.


No, the evidence is the evidence, you just do not like that evidence and you want something else, but we do not always get what we want in life, and in God-related matters we only get what God chooses to give us.


It has nothing to do with whether or not I LIKE the evidence… the evidence simply isn’t sufficient to convince me. Your all-knowing god knows that it isn’t sufficient for me, yet it remains all that he chooses to give, thus basic LOGIC tells me that god has no desire for me believe.


I meant exacyly what I wrote: if you already KNOW that something exists, why would you be seeking it? So if you already KNOW that God exists, why would you be seeking God?



It’s not god I would be seeking. I said I would need evidence that some god exists before I would invest the effort into trying to find god’s messengers. You’re saying that I FIRST must invest the effort into trying to find god’s messenger BEFORE I have ANY evidence that such a god even exists. CART before HORSE.


I would hardly equate the existence of a Westinghouse toaster to the existence of God just because you think the probability is about the same. If a toaster exists it has no implications for your life but if God exists it has major implications. I never suggested you devote your while life to searching for God and if you do not think it is important you don’t have to spend any time on it. We spend time on what we consider important.


I find the analogy to be quite fitting. If it’s the ‘major implications’ that makes it so different for you then simply add that this Westinghouse toaster has an important message from god written on its side. And if as you say the only way to get this message is to study all of the religions there ever was and determine which of them are ‘true’ and then determine which of the claimed messengers from god are real and then AFTER THAT try and determine if the real message is even relevant any longer… yeah, that’s definitely a life-long commitment.


There is SOME evidence but you do not consider it evidence and that is the whole crux of the issue. You do not want some evidence, you want proof. Police officers start investigating crimes as soon as they suspect that a crime has been committed, and later they find the evidence.

As I have said repeatedly, I HAVE the evidence I require to know that God exists. I do not have to look anymore.




We clearly define reliable evidence in different ways. Police don’t start investigating if there’s been a murder until they FIRST have evidence that there’s a dead body. And just because they require evidence that there actually is a dead body that does NOT mean that when they get reliable evidence that there is a body they suddenly have all the evidence concerning how the victim died or who did it. However, no one in their right mind is going to start investigating how a person died and who killed them when there isn’t any evidence that anyone is even dead.


And finally… YOU have the evidence so there’s no reason for you to look further. Isn’t this the exact same mistake you claim followers of other religions are making? They refuse to consider the words of this NEW messenger from a NEW religion that you advocate for, all because they’re convinced that they ALREADY have the full and complete message and that there’s no new message to be searching for.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That argument will not fly because we were all created with a brain that has the same capacity to use logic and reason in order to determine what is true and what isn't and my brain says what I believe is logical. So who is to say that you are more logical than me? I mean I believe God is operating according to logic and reason and you do not believe that, so who is right? Do you understand the problem?

The best you can say is that it does not seem logical to you, but to say that God that doesn't operate according to logic or reason is patently illogical. I mean how could the creator of the whole universe not know how to reason properly? It makes more sense to say you do not understand why God operates the way He does and try to understand why God operates that way.


Sorry, suggesting that we all have the same capacity for logic and reason simply doesn’t fly. Otherwise we wouldn’t have people claiming that the Earth is flat or that it’s only existed for 6 to 10 thousand years. You use a form of logic, I’m sure, but clearly it isn’t the same type of logic and reason that I use. Otherwise you wouldn’t find the concept that god can’t convey his message directly to people, but he can somehow convey it to special messengers who then somehow can pass the message on to mere mortals in a way they can understand to be logical in any way shape or form.
I never said that we all have the same capacity for logic and reason. I asked “So who is to say that you are more logical than me?” True, I use a form of logic, but clearly it isn’t the same type of logic and reason that you use. “So who is to say that you are more logical than me?

It does not matter if it seems logical to you…. Logically speaking, the only thing that matters is what God actually does, not what you believe He should do, or what seems logical to YOU. That is the bottom line, since you cannot MAKE an omnipotent God DO anything.

How do you think we can EVER know what God can do? This is not about what seems logical it is about what God actually does.
According to my beliefs, God can’t convey his message directly to people, but he can convey it to special Messengers who then somehow can pass the message on to mere mortals in a way they can understand, but you would have to believe what I do about God and Messengers in order to understand why.

Again, if you think there’s a ‘logic’ for humans and a separate type of ‘logic’ for your god then clearly we don’t view logic and reason in the same way. You see, in my mind it’s complete illogical to suggest that god has his OWN separate kind of logic. Logic and reason simply are… they apply to everyone equally.
But who is to say that your logic and reason is correct?
Here again we see the enormous difference between what you consider to be logical and reasonable and what I consider to be logical and reasonable. Of course your god doesn’t HAVE to do anything, but my mind works on logic and reason and if your god refuses to provide REASON for what he chooses then he KNOWS that the way MY mind functions, I will NEVER accept it.
God DID provide a REASON, through the message of Baha’u’llah, and I explained the reason. You do not accept the reason I have given you but you cannot blame God, since God did due diligence.

God provided a REASON but that is not good enough for you because you want God to tailors His communication to what you WANT, what you would believe, and God will never do that because an omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do, NOT what you want Him to do. This is simple logic.

Why do you think that God would/should care if you accept what He chooses? Why do you think that God would/should care how your mind functions? Should God change the way He communicates just because atheists do not accept Messengers? I do not consider that logical or reasonable to expect an Almighty God to kowtow to humans.
Thus if god refuses to use another method then OBVIOUISLY god has no desire for me to get his message.
We have covered this ground before. God has a desire for you to get His message, but God has no need for you to get His message. That is why God is not going to tailor His communication to suit your needs.
IF he’s omnipotent then he KNOWS that the way my brain functions it’s not possible for me to accept any message given to me second hand through messengers. He KNOWS that I can’t force myself to have ‘faith’ that he exists enough to invest the time and energy into getting the evidence of his existence via old writings by supposed messengers.
Yes, God knows all of that, but what do you expect God to do about it? God doesn’t need you to believe in Him so it you choose not to then it will only be your loss, not God’s loss.
You clearly don’t use the same form of logic and reason that I do if you consider what you just wrote to be logical and reasonable.

1. God CAN convey his message to mortal, but he CAN’T do it in a way that mortals can understand.

2. God CAN create divine beings capable of understanding his message, but he chose not to create mortals with the same ability.

3. SOMEHOW the divine messengers he created have an ability that’s SUPERIOR to god… THEY somehow have the ability to convey god’s message in a way that mortals CAN understand.

Currently my brain that uses logic and reason is reeling in an attempt to make any logical sense out of such a claim.
From what you just said, it is obvious that you still don’t understand what I have been saying, so let me restate what you said with my actual position.

1. God COULD convey his message to ordinary humans, but ordinary humans could never understand God. The REASON ordinary humans could never understand God is because they do not have that capacity since they do not have a divine mind. Messengers have the capacity to understand God because they have a divine mind.

2. God CAN reveal His message to Messengers who have a twofold nature (divine and human), but He chose not to create ordinary humans with a twofold nature.

3. The Messengers have an ability to convey God’s message in a way that ordinary humans CAN understand. That does not mean they are SUPERIOR to God. All the means is that they can bridge the gap between God and humans because they are BOTH divine and human.
Why on Earth would god NOT do that? No, he’s not a short-order cook… according to you he’s an ALL powerful OMNIPOTENT being. Providing an individualized message for everyone would be as easy for him as snapping his metaphorical fingers.
Simply put, God would NOT do that because God chooses NOT to. The fact that an omnipotent COULD do it is completely irrelevant. God could also wipe out the entire earth in an instant but He does not do that because He chooses NOT to do it.
And then we go to that ridiculous idea that god doesn’t want his message to be so easily understood… that somehow actually teaching a person in a manner that they can understand is somehow ‘spoon feeding’ them the information.
No, that is not what I said. I said God is not going to tailor His message to each individual on earth so that everyone can easily understand it. Tell me why you think God should do that?

Any decent teacher knows that they must be prepared to teach their lessons in more than one fashion, because every student has different learning styles. Any teacher who uses a one-size-fits-all teaching method has no genuine desire for all of his students to learn. If he doesn’t want everyone to get his message that fine… I’m clearly one of them.

God is not a teacher teaching humans so the human to human analogy won’t work. A teacher has a job to do and a goal of having students understand and learn, but God has no such goals.

But don’t try and sell me on the idea that he really does want me to have the message, but he’s not going to make any effort whatsoever to present it to me in a way I can actually comprehend and accept.

I am not going to try to sell you on that; I am just going to tell you that is how it is. God is not going to make any extra efforts at all because God does not need your belief or your understanding, the way a teacher needs a his students to understand.
Lastly, telling me that it’s the way it is because ‘god is in charge’ is yet another example of putting the cart before the horse. You’ve yet to provide any reliable evidence that your god even exists, let alone that this god is in charge. So arguing that god doesn’t have to explain or be logical because god’s in charge is really no argument at all. FIRST firmly establish that your god exists THEN you can try and argue that this god is in charge.
I have told you what the evidence for God’s existence is; the Messengers. You do not accept that as evidence so there is no point covering this ground again.

(Continued on next post)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I guess that all depends on how you define success. If having less than 5 million out of 7.5 billion of your creations accurately receiving your important message is sufficient, then I guess there is no problem.
Success has nothing to do with numbers, or how many people get the message or how long it takes people to get it. God has no such goals.
If you say so… from my perspective religions are in just as much conflict with one another as ever. And how is it that so many of these so called ‘true’ religions teach that anyone attempting to introduce them to a NEW religion are actually agents of Satan attempting to draw them away from the one TRUE religion?
Of course they are still in conflict, because they have not recognized and accepted the UNIFYING message of Baha’u’llah. They will remain in conflict until they do so. Ehat other reason would they have to chance? Each religion is happy in their own little corner, believing they have the truth.

Some religions teach that any new religion is an agent of Satan because that is what their religion teaches.
If god knows all religions are basically the same. Why would he allow so many of the true religions to receive a message so contrary to what is true?
God has known that all along, but humans were not ready to hear that message until the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. God allowed those religions to believe that in the past because they were not yet ready to hear the message that all religions are one, since they did not have the capacity to understand that concept; but now that people are ready to hear it most people don’t accept it, but God allows them to reject it because He honors free will.
Who’s talking about giving DIFFERENT messages? What we’re talking about is giving the SAME message in different ways so that EVERYONE can understand.

It’s just like the psychics instructor who has to keep in mind that different students learn differently.

Just because a visual learner learns best during while reading text and an audio learning learns best when listening to lectures doesn’t mean that what each student learned is different… it just means the best method for teaching the same information was different for each student.
Again, I go back to asking you WHY you think that God should communicate His messages in DIFFERENT ways such that everyone will understand.

The analogy of the physics instructor will not work because God is not a human being who is trying to convey information. God is not a teacher; rather, God sends Messengers to teach humans.
No one is asking for god to give me the ENTIRE message all at once. How about if he just starts with providing me with the evidence I need to accept that he actually exists?
Again, the evidence is the Messengers. The only other evidence you might get is if you sincerely pray to God to show you the way. I know two lifelong atheists who prayed and got answers and now they are serious believers.. People get a lot more from God when they ask rather than make demands. God does not like being ordered around.
God has provided the evidence that He exists and that evidence is the Messenger He sent. Now God wants you to do your homework by looking at the message that He revealed.

Actually no, god hasn’t provided me with anything. Thus far I have had numerous fallible human beings CLAIM that various supposed divine messengers have a message from god for me, but I’m still waiting for ANYTHING at all from this proposed god being.
And you will be waiting till he’ll freezes over, because you will never get any direct communication from God.
So now instead of buying into the illogical claim that IF I just ‘do my homework’ all will be revealed, I’m waiting for the evidence that god exists BEFORE I waste my time doing the homework.
And you will be waiting till he’ll freezes over, for any evidence that God exists other than Messengers of God, unless you pray to God and God gives you a sign. God can do that of He chooses to.
No, the evidence is the evidence, you just do not like that evidence and you want something else, but we do not always get what we want in life, and in God-related matters we only get what God chooses to give us.

It has nothing to do with whether or not I LIKE the evidence… the evidence simply isn’t sufficient to convince me. Your all-knowing god knows that it isn’t sufficient for me, yet it remains all that he chooses to give, thus basic LOGIC tells me that god has no desire for me believe.
That’s fine if it the evidence simply isn’t sufficient to convince you. God knows that but God is not going to provide a different kind of evidence just for you and other atheists like you. God does not operate like Baskin-Robbins 31 flavors.
Your all-knowing god knows that it isn’t sufficient for me, yet it remains all that he chooses to give, thus basic LOGIC tells me that god has no desire for me believe.
No, it does NOT mean that. It means God has a desire for you to believe by recognizing His Messenger, which is one reason God sends the Messenger.
I meant exacyly what I wrote: if you already KNOW that something exists, why would you be seeking it? So if you already KNOW that God exists, why would you be seeking God?

It’s not god I would be seeking. I said I would need evidence that some god exists before I would invest the effort into trying to find god’s messengers. You’re saying that I FIRST must invest the effort into trying to find god’s messenger BEFORE I have ANY evidence that such a god even exists. CART before HORSE.
The Messengers ARE the evidence that God exists, take it or leave it.
I would hardly equate the existence of a Westinghouse toaster to the existence of God just because you think the probability is about the same. If a toaster exists it has no implications for your life but if God exists it has major implications. I never suggested you devote your while life to searching for God and if you do not think it is important you don’t have to spend any time on it. We spend time on what we consider important.

I find the analogy to be quite fitting. If it’s the ‘major implications’ that makes it so different for you then simply add that this Westinghouse toaster has an important message from god written on its side. And if as you say the only way to get this message is to study all of the religions there ever was and determine which of them are ‘true’ and then determine which of the claimed messengers from god are real and then AFTER THAT try and determine if the real message is even relevant any longer… yeah, that’s definitely a life-long commitment.
I never suggested you study all of the religions there ever was and determine which of them are ‘true’ and then determine which of the claimed messengers from god are real and then AFTER THAT try and determine if the real message is even relevant any longer. I see no reason to study ALL the religions because the older religions are not even pertinent to this new age.
There is SOME evidence but you do not consider it evidence and that is the whole crux of the issue. You do not want some evidence, you want proof. Police officers start investigating crimes as soon as they suspect that a crime has been committed, and later they find the evidence.

As I have said repeatedly, I HAVE the evidence I require to know that God exists. I do not have to look anymore.


We clearly define reliable evidence in different ways. Police don’t start investigating if there’s been a murder until they FIRST have evidence that there’s a dead body. And just because they require evidence that there actually is a dead body that does NOT mean that when they get reliable evidence that there is a body they suddenly have all the evidence concerning how the victim died or who did it. However, no one in their right mind is going to start investigating how a person died and who killed them when there isn’t any evidence that anyone is even dead.
The police analogy breaks down at a certain point. They would not investigate till they know a murder has been committed, because there is no REASON to think a murder has been committed until someone reports a murder. It has already been reported through all the religions that a God exists so there is a REASON to investigate God.
And finally… YOU have the evidence so there’s no reason for you to look further. Isn’t this the exact same mistake you claim followers of other religions are making? They refuse to consider the words of this NEW messenger from a NEW religion that you advocate for, all because they’re convinced that they ALREADY have the full and complete message and that there’s no new message to be searching for.
Who cares? People can be convinced of anything they want to believe but they do not HAVE a full and complete message; it is logically impossible for them to ALL have a full and complete message since there are other messages with other information they do not have.

Besides that they follow ancient religions that no longer suit the needs of the times we live in so there is absolutely no reason what any logical seeker of truth would investigate those older religions. Are you going to go to a junkyard to look for a car that no longer runs or to a new car lot to find a nice new car, if someone is offering the new car at no cost?

I am not saying that the older religions have nothing to offer, even cars in the junkyard have parts that can be salvaged and used but the cars themselves will never run properly again, not anymore than the older religions will ever run properly. But those cars once ran properly, when they were new or not too old, just as the older religions once ran properly.

“All that lives, and this includes the religions, have springtime, a time of maturity, of harvest and wintertime. Then religion becomes barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and man’s spiritual life declines. When we look at religious history, we see that God has spoken to men precisely at times when they have reached the nadir of their degradation and cultural decadence. Moses came to Israel when it was languishing under the Pharaoh’s yoke, Christ appeared at a time when the Jewish Faith had lost its power and culture of antiquity was in its death those. Muhammad came to a people who lived in barbaric ignorance at the lowest level of culture and into a world in which the former religions had strayed far away from their origins and nearly lost their identity. The Bab addressed Himself to a people who had irretrievably lost their former grandeur and who found themselves in a state of hopeless decadence. Baha’u’llah came to a humanity which was approaching the most critical phase of its history.” (Udo Schaefer, The Light Shineth in Darkness, p. 24)
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
I never said that we all have the same capacity for logic and reason. I asked “So who is to say that you are more logical than me?” True, I
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I never said that we all have the same capacity for logic and reason. I asked “So who is to say that you are more logical than me?” True, I use a form of logic, but clearly it isn’t the same type of logic and reason that you use. “So who is to say that you are more logical than me?

I'M the one who says so. All I know in how MY mind processes logic. If you make a statement that you claim is logical and my mind views your claim to be completely illogical, I have NO OTHER CHOICE but to consider your logic flawed in some way. Otherwise I would be forced to completely abandon the entire system that I use to determine reality.

It does not matter if it seems logical to you…. Logically speaking, the only thing that matters is what God actually does, not what you believe He should do, or what seems logical to YOU. That is the bottom line, since you cannot MAKE an omnipotent God DO anything.

No, it doesn't matter to YOU if it seems logical to me... to ME, whether it follows logic and reason is ALL that matters. And you arguing that there is some sort of 'god' logic that supersedes MY logic is COMPLETELY illogical, since I still have ZERO reason to believe that your proposed god even exists.

Just think about what your saying here and what you actually expect me to do. YOU claim there's an omnipotent god being and YOU describe the things this god being does and what he wants and expects. I have no reason to believe that your god being even exists and I point how how it's impossible for me to believe that this god being exists if some of the characteristics about this god you've proposed are completely illogical to me. And the argument you come back with is if your proposed god being does it then that automatically makes it logical and I'm just not capable of understanding godly logic. So MY logic doesn't apply to your god.

What a crock! The number one indication that this is all bs is if I'm told that the only way I can get evidence of this god being is if I abandon the method that I employ for determining truths is EVERY OTHER aspect of my life.

How do you think we can EVER know what God can do? This is not about what seems logical it is about what God actually does.

And the ONLY way I have to determine what god actually DOES is to accept what you CLAIM god actually does? Using YOUR logic you've concluded that if god doesn't communicate directly it MUST mean that god doesn't WANT to communicate directly. But the HUGE hole that I see in YOUR logic is that you've completely ignored the possibility that MAYBE this god doesn't communicate directly because this proposed god DOESN'T ACTUALLY EXIST. You see, according the logic that I use, it's absolutely ridiculous to use YOUR logic until it's been firmly established that your proposed god is even real.

God DID provide a REASON, through the message of Baha’u’llah, and I explained the reason. You do not accept the reason I have given you but you cannot blame God, since God did due diligence.

You're right... I do not accept that this message from Bahu'ullah is a legitimate message from god. Nothing about what you claimed were the best evidence that his writings are in any way prophetic in my opinion. They were either so vague they could apply to anything or no different that an accurate prediction. I saw no more 'truth' in what you sent me as I see in any of the dozens of other religions I've been told are 'true'.

God provided a REASON but that is not good enough for you because you want God to tailors His communication to what you WANT, what you would believe, and God will never do that because an omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do, NOT what you want Him to do. This is simple logic.

This has nothing to do with what I WANT. It's simply a matter of what my brain requires in order to have belief in something and that is logical and reasonable evidence... and YES it has to be logical and reasonable to ME. Telling me that I have to abandon my logic and reason when determining evidence for a belief simply will not work.

Why do you think that God would/should care if you accept what He chooses? Why do you think that God would/should care how your mind functions? Should God change the way He communicates just because atheists do not accept Messengers? I do not consider that logical or reasonable to expect an Almighty God to kowtow to humans.

I have absolutely no reason to think that a god I have no reason to believe exists should care what I accept. The ONLY reason I even mention it was because YOU claim that he WANTS me to get his message... of course you then say that he also doesn't CARE if I get the message, which seems completely contradictory to ME, but apparently it makes perfect sense using YOUR logic... ot is it GOD'S logic?

All I'm saying is that if god WANTS me to accept the message then HE knows what it'll take. If he doesn't care if I get the message, then that's 100% fine with me... because it appears to be working out just fine.

We have covered this ground before. God has a desire for you to get His message, but God has no need for you to get His message. That is why God is not going to tailor His communication to suit your needs.

Never claimed that god NEEDED to do anything. If he truly does have a DESIRE for me to get the message, HE knows how to go about doing it in a way that I WILL get the message. If he doesn't really desire to do so, again, that 100% fine with me. I'm not about to lose any sleep over a message I'm not getting from a being I have no reason to believe even exists.

Yes, God knows all of that, but what do you expect God to do about it? God doesn’t need you to believe in Him so it you choose not to then it will only be your loss, not God’s loss.

I don't expect ANYTHING from your proposed god. If god has no need for my belief then I see absolutely no reason to believe. I mean if HE doesn't care, why should I? Apparently we're both perfectly fine with it.

From what you just said, it is obvious that you still don’t understand what I have been saying, so let me restate what you said with my actual position.

1. God COULD convey his message to ordinary humans, but ordinary humans could never understand God. The REASON ordinary humans could never understand God is because they do not have that capacity since they do not have a divine mind. Messengers have the capacity to understand God because they have a divine mind.

Yeah, that's basically what I said.

2. God CAN reveal His message to Messengers who have a twofold nature (divine and human), but He chose not to create ordinary humans with a twofold nature.

Yeah, that's basically what I said.

3. The Messengers have an ability to convey God’s message in a way that ordinary humans CAN understand. That does not mean they are SUPERIOR to God. All the means is that they can bridge the gap between God and humans because they are BOTH divine and human.

Now here's were YOUR logic becomes completely illogical. These messengers have the ability to convey god's message directly to normal mortals in a way the mortal's can understand... something that god cannot do. Thus, according to ALL my understanding of logic and reason this means that in this one respect, god's messengers are SUPERIOR to the god that created them. If I can comprehend a language and interpret it so that you can understand it and someone else cannot comprehend a language and interpret so that you can understand then logic dictates that when it comes to comprehending and being able to interpret this language so you can understand, I have SUPERIOR abilities than the person who cannot.

Simply put, God would NOT do that because God chooses NOT to. The fact that an omnipotent COULD do it is completely irrelevant. God could also wipe out the entire earth in an instant but He does not do that because He chooses NOT to do it.

Again, you're citing facts not in evidence. YOU'VE decided that since god doesn't do it then obviously god doesn't want to do it. Yet the logic that I use suggests that it's JUST AS POSSIBLE that the reason god hasn't done it is because god doesn't exist. Why you have completely discounted the second possibility appears to be because you've started out your entire reasoning process based on the unfounded assumption that there IS a god.

Yet ANOTHER example of putting cart before horse.

No, that is not what I said. I said God is not going to tailor His message to each individual on earth so that everyone can easily understand it. Tell me why you think God should do that?

Because it only makes logical sense to do so IF as you claim this god is omnipotent and has any desire whatsoever for me to get the message. So again, if as you say HE doesn't care if I get the message, why the heck should I care?

Any decent teacher knows that they must be prepared to teach their lessons in more than one fashion, because every student has different learning styles. Any teacher who uses a one-size-fits-all teaching method has no genuine desire for all of his students to learn. If he doesn’t want everyone to get his message that fine… I’m clearly one of them.

God is not a teacher teaching humans so the human to human analogy won’t work. A teacher has a job to do and a goal of having students understand and learn, but God has no such goals.

So we've established once again that your god doesn't have any desire or goal for me to receive his message in a way that he knows I would understand... so why should I have any desire or goal whatsoever to seek this message that god has no goal of giving me and that he knows I will never accept?

But don’t try and sell me on the idea that he really does want me to have the message, but he’s not going to make any effort whatsoever to present it to me in a way I can actually comprehend and accept.

I am not going to try to sell you on that; I am just going to tell you that is how it is. God is not going to make any extra efforts at all because God does not need your belief or your understanding, the way a teacher needs a his students to understand.

So you say... but I have absolutely no reason to believe that YOU have some special insight into how god does things that I don't. And even if I DID have reason to believe that you've been given special insight, the god you have described to me is completely silly and illogical and certainly isn't worthy of my recognition.

I have told you what the evidence for God’s existence is; the Messengers. You do not accept that as evidence so there is no point covering this ground again.

Yes, and I've already told YOU that any god who expects me to put in the time and effort to seek out His messengers without FIRST providing me with evidence that he even exists to send messengers is far too silly and illogical of a god for me to ever care about.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
That argument will not fly because we were all created with a brain that has the same capacity to use logic and reason in order to determine what is true and what isn't and my brain says what I believe is logical. So who is to say that you are more logical than me? I mean I believe God is operating according to logic and reason and you do not believe that, so who is right? Do you understand the problem?
Logic is a specific process. If you are not using that process then you are not being logical. You are doing something else.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Success has nothing to do with numbers, or how many people get the message or how long it takes people to get it. God has no such goals.

Of course they are still in conflict, because they have not recognized and accepted the UNIFYING message of Baha’u’llah. They will remain in conflict until they do so. Ehat other reason would they have to chance? Each religion is happy in their own little corner, believing they have the truth.

Some religions teach that any new religion is an agent of Satan because that is what their religion teaches.

God has known that all along, but humans were not ready to hear that message until the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. God allowed those religions to believe that in the past because they were not yet ready to hear the message that all religions are one, since they did not have the capacity to understand that concept; but now that people are ready to hear it most people don’t accept it, but God allows them to reject it because He honors free will.


Who cares? People can be convinced of anything they want to believe but they do not HAVE a full and complete message; it is logically impossible for them to ALL have a full and complete message since there are other messages with other information they do not have.

a humanity which was approaching the most critical phase of its history.” (Udo Schaefer, The Light Shineth in Darkness, p. 24)


Success has nothing to do with numbers, or how many people get the message or how long it takes people to get it. God has no such goals.

I suppose you're right. If god doesn't care that the vast majority of people never gets his message then he's doing a bang-up job.

Again, I go back to asking you WHY you think that God should communicate His messages in DIFFERENT ways such that everyone will understand.

The analogy of the physics instructor will not work because God is not a human being who is trying to convey information. God is not a teacher; rather, God sends Messengers to teach humans.


You've made it crystal clear that god has absolutely no problem with just a small fraction of his creations getting his message and that he feels absolutely no obligation to convey his message in a way that he knows I'll understand. And that's just fine with me... because if he feels no obligation to present his message in a way I can understand then I feel absolutely no obligation to try and figure out what the message might be.

And I'm not sure you comprehend what an analogy is. Of COURSE god isn't a physics professor... it's an ANALOGY. But they BOTH apparently have messages. And a professor doesn't have to WANT to have all his students understand. He COULD just teach in one way for on specific type of learner and not care one bit if those who learn in a different ways ever learn anything. However, I would label such a professor to be VERY poor at effectively communicating. And yes, your god may not care one bit if those with different learning styles never gets the message, but them I'm welcome to ALSO label god to be VERY poor at effectively communicating.

Again, the evidence is the Messengers. The only other evidence you might get is if you sincerely pray to God to show you the way. I know two lifelong atheists who prayed and got answers and now they are serious believers.. People get a lot more from God when they ask rather than make demands. God does not like being ordered around.

My oh my, there's that cart before the horse AGAIN!

Let's say that I tell you that magical pixies are REAL and that they have very important messages for you. You naturally ask me for some sort of EVIDENCE that these magical pixies even exist, let alone have a message for you. My response to you is that the evidence that magical pixies exist is written in the clouds, but you have to study virtually every cloud and seeing the TRUE messages can take time. Unless you've already decided that there MUST be magical pixies, are you honestly going to spend your life studying the clouds for messages from beings you have absolutely no reason to believe are real?

Perhaps YOU would... but I would not, because that would be putting the cart before the horse. FIRST I need confirmation that magical pixies exist and THEN I might be willing to seek out messages from them. Not sure why that's SO hard for you to comprehend.

And you will be waiting till he’ll freezes over, because you will never get any direct communication from God.

Fine by me... I wasn't expecting any communication anyway.

And you will be waiting till he’ll freezes over, for any evidence that God exists other than Messengers of God, unless you pray to God and God gives you a sign. God can do that of He chooses to.

Again, fine by me. But why the heck would I 'pray to god' to give me a sign? That would be like praying to magical pixies for a sign. Do you pray to magical pixies for a sign of their existence? If not, why not?

That’s fine if it the evidence simply isn’t sufficient to convince you. God knows that but God is not going to provide a different kind of evidence just for you and other atheists like you. God does not operate like Baskin-Robbins 31 flavors.

That's cool. I never insisted that he should. All I've said is that IF he wants me to get the message, HE knows how to go about doing it. IF he doesn't care if I get the message that's fine... I don't care if I get it either.

No, it does NOT mean that. It means God has a desire for you to believe by recognizing His Messenger, which is one reason God sends the Messenger.

Sure... if you say so. But that's about as logical as claiming that god WANTS me to be able to flap my arms and fly like a bird, even though he created me in such a way so that it's impossible for me to flap my arms and fly like a bird. So fine, god WANTS me to recognize his messengers even though he created me in such a way that it's impossible for me to use the brain he provided me with to recognize his messengers.

That might make perfect sense according to YOUR logic, but it's absolutely ridiculous according to the logic that I use.

The Messengers ARE the evidence that God exists, take it or leave it.

I think I've made it pretty clear that I'm leaving it, since putting the cart before the horse is completely illogical to me.

I never suggested you study all of the religions there ever was and determine which of them are ‘true’ and then determine which of the claimed messengers from god are real and then AFTER THAT try and determine if the real message is even relevant any longer. I see no reason to study ALL the religions because the older religions are not even pertinent to this new age.

LOL... sorry, but you're making that statement based on the fact that you have ALREADY determined what the 'true' religion is. You're NOT coming from the perspective that there's no evidence for god and no reason to believe that any religion is 'true'. UNLESS I'm supposed to simply take YOUR word for it that none of the older religion are pertinent to this new age, I'd have to study the old religions and determine that for MYSELF, wouldn't I?

The police analogy breaks down at a certain point. They would not investigate till they know a murder has been committed, because there is no REASON to think a murder has been committed until someone reports a murder. It has already been reported through all the religions that a God exists so there is a REASON to investigate God.

Nope, the analogy is just fine. Because if the police are informed that a murder has taken place and then they show up at the murder scene and there isn't a body, they're not going to investigate the murder any further. Someone simply CLAIMING there was a murder with no evidence is not going to have their claim investigated by the police. Even if they are told that they need to START investigating the murder and then eventually they'll find evidence of a dead body, they're not going to investigate. That would be putting the cart before the horse. FIRST it must be established that there's a dead body THEN the police will take the time and effort to investigate it. They DO NOT start investigating in hopes that eventually they MIGHT find evidence that someone was killed.

Who cares? People can be convinced of anything they want to believe but they do not HAVE a full and complete message; it is logically impossible for them to ALL have a full and complete message since there are other messages with other information they do not have.

Besides that they follow ancient religions that no longer suit the needs of the times we live in so there is absolutely no reason what any logical seeker of truth would investigate those older religions. Are you going to go to a junkyard to look for a car that no longer runs or to a new car lot to find a nice new car, if someone is offering the new car at no cost?

I am not saying that the older religions have nothing to offer, even cars in the junkyard have parts that can be salvaged and used but the cars themselves will never run properly again, not anymore than the older religions will ever run properly. But those cars once ran properly, when they were new or not too old, just as the older religions once ran properly.


Not sure why this is so hard for you to grasp. You expect others who are convinced that they have the true religions and all the messages god has to deliver to keep searching for new messengers and a new religion... yet you apparently aren't searching for a new messenger or religion... other than the one you've already found. Why is that? How do you know the messenger you're currently listening to isn't for an 'older age' and that the NEW REAL messenger just started spread god's NEWEST message in the past 10 years?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I never said that we all have the same capacity for logic and reason. I asked “So who is to say that you are more logical than me?” True, I use a form of logic, but clearly it isn’t the same type of logic and reason that you use. “So who is to say that you are more logical than me?

I'M the one who says so. All I know in how MY mind processes logic. If you make a statement that you claim is logical and my mind views your claim to be completely illogical, I have NO OTHER CHOICE but to consider your logic flawed in some way. Otherwise I would be forced to completely abandon the entire system that I use to determine reality.
The same applies to me. All I know in how MY mind processes logic. If you make a statement that you claim is logical and my mind views your claim to be completely illogical, I have NO OTHER CHOICE but to consider your logic flawed in some way. Otherwise I would be forced to completely abandon the entire system that I use to determine reality.

So who is more logical? It via all a matter of how we perceive things, what we believe a God would do or has done. It is all a matter of what makes sense to us based upon what we know or don’t know.

I had to limit most of the rest of this post to my responses in order to avoid exceeding the character limit.

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I did not say there is a God logic… God transcends logic. I was telling you what is logical to me. What is logical to me is that if God is omnipotent, it makes no sense that we could ever MAKE God do what God does not choose to do. Ask yourself how that would be possible.

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First, I am not expecting you to believe anything; I am just explaining what I believe about God.

Second, what characteristics of God that I have described are illogical and WHY are they illogical to you?

Third, how can you possibly know what God would do, if God existed, by using logic?

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What I said is very logical and reasonable. If God does something and we can know what that is, then the only thing that matters is what God actually does, not what you believe He should do, or what seems logical to YOU. That is the bottom line, since you cannot MAKE an omnipotent God DO anything.

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Logically speaking, there is no reason why you would employ the same method that you employ for determining truths is EVERY OTHER aspect of your life in order to determine the truth about God, and the reason I say that is because God is not LIKE anything else in your life. One way God is not the same is that God is unknowable except through the Messengers which you have chosen to discount as evidence for God. Another way God is different is that you have no control over God as you have control over other things in your life.

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If God exists and God does not communicate directly to everyone, that means that God does not WANT to; because an omnipotent God could communicate directly to everyone if He wanted to. The fact that no God has ever communicated directly everyone means one of three things which are the three logical possibilities I have presented on this forum more than once. Given the empirical evidence, including the religions that claim to have been revealed by God, here are those mutually exclusive logical possibilities:

1. God exists and communicates via Messengers who establish religions, or
2. God exists and does not communicate at all, or
3. God does not exist

A fourth possibility, that if God existed God would communicate directly to everyone, is logically impossible, since if God exists we know that God has not communicated directly to everyone.

So you get to pick 1, 2, or 3.

It cannot ever be established as a fact that God is real; it can only be established by each individual.

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Fine then, we see things differently, but I’ll bet I have looked at the evidence a lot more than you have.

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I am not telling you to abandon your own logic. If what I explained makes no sense to then it doesn’t, and probably it never will make sense unless you make an attempt to change the way you see things.

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I believe that God WANTS you to get His message because otherwise God would not have sent Baha’u’llah with the message. I cannot say what God cares about but God has no needs so God does not NEED you to get His message. The only reason God wants you to get His message is for your own sake, for your benefit.

God is All-Knowing so God knows what it would take to get you to believe in Him, but God does not NEED your belief so God is not going to change His chosen Method of communication in order to get your belief.

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God is not going to deliver His message in such a way that it is acceptable to you because God does not barter with humans. That does not mean that God does not DESIRE that you get His message, it means God does not make any special provisions. We get whatever God chooses to give us and nothing more.

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AGAIN, I cannot say what God cares about, but God needs nobody’s belief because God has no needs. The only reason for you to believe would be for whatever benefits that will accrue to you.

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No, obviously you STILL do not understand. The Messengers have the ability to convey God's message directly to normal mortals in a way the mortal's can understand... God cannot convey His message to normal mortals in a way the mortal's can understand – because normal mortals cannot understand God. God’s Messengers are not superior to God, they are different in kind. They have a twofold nature, BOTH human and divine, so they can bridge the gap between God and humans. God has no human nature so we cannot relate to God directly since we are ONLY human.

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I see the problem now. You are talking about God as if God was a human being.

Yes, the Messengers have abilities that are SUPERIOR to other men. But God is not a man so it is illogical to compare God to a Messenger of God who is a man, and in fact that is the fallacy of false equivalence since Messengers of God are not equivalent to God.

In short, what God can do has nothing to do with what a Messenger of God can do because one is a created being and the other is the Creator.

What you apparently do not understand (or accept) is that humans simply do not have the inbuilt capacity to understand communication from God directly because God did not CREATE us with that capacity. Our brains are different from the brains of a Messenger of God. We can understand the Messengers because they have a human nature (as well as a divine nature).

The Messengers of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. Their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world before their bodies were born in this world, whereas the souls of all humans come into being at the moment of conception. The spiritual world is where Messengers get their special powers from God. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

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Yes, as I said above, it is just as possible that God does not exist, and that is the reason God does not communicate directly to everyone, because a nonexistent God cannot communicate to anyone. But that is an idiotic reason not to believe that God exists, because God does not communicate directly to everyone. It is not only idiotic, it is completely illogical, since if God exists, God does not communicate directly to everyone.

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There is nothing logical about an omnipotent God taking orders from humans who would rather God communicate in a way that is tailor made. God is not our servant, we are God’s servants. God does care but God is omnipotent so it is His Way of the highway.

And why would it matter if God cared if you got His message? The message is only for YOUR benefit, not for God’s benefit, and that is why God is not going to alter His method of communication to suit you.

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If it is true that you will never accept it God knows you will never accept it. There are no shoulds here… The only reason you WOULD have any desire or goal whatsoever to seek this message that God is if you were willing to change and accept the way God delivers it.

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That’s fine by me if you want to write God off that way, but I think you need to understand WHY you are writing Him off, I mean really understand. It is because if God existed you think you would know more than God about how to deliver a message to humans, which is logically impossible because God is All-Knowing and you are not.

What is completely silly and even beyond ridiculous is a God that would tailor His message to every human being in earth just to assure that everyone believes in Him. That is completely illogical because (1) God is not a short order cook taking orders from the humans he created, and (2) God does not need anyone’s belief.

Moreover, what about all the religions in the world upon which entire civilizations are based? It is drop obvious to anyone who has any logical abilities that God communicates via Messengers; IF God exists AND communicates to humans.

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You can expect whatever you want to expect, it is your choice. God is not going to prove to you that He exists. The Messengers are the evidence and there is NOTHING illogical about it. You just say it is illogical but you have never stated a reason why. The use of Messengers is not illogical just because God did not prove He exists FIRST by some other means other than what He provided – Messengers. That is not a reason.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Success has nothing to do with numbers, or how many people get the message or how long it takes people to get it. God has no such goals.

I suppose you're right. If god doesn't care that the vast majority of people never gets his message then he's doing a bang-up job.
God is not doing anything because it is not God’s responsibility to ensure that people get His message. It is the responsibility of the Baha’is.
You've made it crystal clear that god has absolutely no problem with just a small fraction of his creations getting his message and that he feels absolutely no obligation to convey his message in a way that he knows I'll understand. And that's just fine with me... because if he feels no obligation to present his message in a way I can understand then I feel absolutely no obligation to try and figure out what the message might be.
And that is just fine with God, so case closed.
And I'm not sure you comprehend what an analogy is. Of COURSE god isn't a physics professor... it's an ANALOGY. But they BOTH apparently have messages. And a professor doesn't have to WANT to have all his students understand. He COULD just teach in one way for on specific type of learner and not care one bit if those who learn in a different ways ever learn anything. However, I would label such a professor to be VERY poor at effectively communicating. And yes, your god may not care one bit if those with different learning styles never gets the message, but them I'm welcome to ALSO label god to be VERY poor at effectively communicating.
God does not have the message, the Messenger has the message. God is not teaching anything, the Messenger is doing all the teaching. If people can read they can understand. If they do not want to bother to read then they won’t understand. To blame the teacher because most people refuse to do their homework, that’s really not fair and would never go over in any classroom.

You can label God whatever you want, but I can assure you it won’t hurt God and I cannot see how it will help you.

Imagine what you want but if you really thought it through and removed your bias you would realize that the reason God has always sent Messengers is because it is the only way for humans to get messages. I have spent almost eight years on forums posting mostly to atheists and not one atheist has come up with a better way for God to communicate, yet they complain incessantly about Messengers for no good reason that they can give me, no logical reason. No, God whispering a message in the ears of 7.8 billion people is neither reasonable nor rational and I assume that is one reason God does not use this method. Baha’u’llah wrote 15,000 Tablets. Realistically, how do you think everyone in the world is going to get all this information? It used to be only available in print, now we also have the internet.
Perhaps YOU would... but I would not, because that would be putting the cart before the horse. FIRST I need confirmation that magical pixies exist and THEN I might be willing to seek out messages from them. Not sure why that's SO hard for you to comprehend.
God is not giving you any confirmation that He exists other than the Messenger because the Messenger is the confirmation. What about that do you NOT understand?
Again, fine by me. But why the heck would I 'pray to god' to give me a sign? That would be like praying to magical pixies for a sign. Do you pray to magical pixies for a sign of their existence? If not, why not?
That is really sad. My friend who was a nonbeliever prayed to God for a sign got a sign and now he believes in God and it changed his life. Not only that, his friend who was a nonbeliever saw what happened and now he is a believer too.
God does not operate like Baskin-Robbins 31 flavors.

That's cool. I never insisted that he should. All I've said is that IF he wants me to get the message, HE knows how to go about doing it. IF he doesn't care if I get the message that's fine... I don't care if I get it either.
Fine, then it is settled. Case closed.
No, it does NOT mean that. It means God has a desire for you to believe by recognizing His Messenger, which is one reason God sends the Messenger.

Sure... if you say so. But that's about as logical as claiming that god WANTS me to be able to flap my arms and fly like a bird, even though he created me in such a way so that it's impossible for me to flap my arms and fly like a bird. So fine, god WANTS me to recognize his messengers even though he created me in such a way that it's impossible for me to use the brain he provided me with to recognize his messengers.
That might make perfect sense according to YOUR logic, but it's absolutely ridiculous according to the logic that I use.

That analogy won’t fly if you will pardon the pun, because God created you with the capacity to recognize Him and the Messengers.

“.... I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143


But you have decided that you can’t and you have no good reason except that you ordered something else on the menu, but that won’ fly with God, because God is not your personal chef. It is not that you can’t, it is that you won’t because you are pissed off that is not what you ordered. It is kind of like a kid who wanted a red bicycle and dad got him a blue one.
LOL... sorry, but you're making that statement based on the fact that you have ALREADY determined what the 'true' religion is. You're NOT coming from the perspective that there's no evidence for god and no reason to believe that any religion is 'true'. UNLESS I'm supposed to simply take YOUR word for it that none of the older religion are pertinent to this new age, I'd have to study the old religions and determine that for MYSELF, wouldn't I?
I have already decided what I believe, but I am not asking you to take MY word for it; I was just giving you my personal opinion. If you think it is logical to study ancient religions that have no solutions for what humanity faces I the modern age, have at it. You will find exactly what I said, no solutions. Sure they have lofty spiritual teachings, all religions have those, but how much is that going to help a world that is crumbling before our very eyes? Religion is about more than just God, we have to live in this world. The Baha’i Faith is the only religion that teaches the importance of science and that it is h-just as important as religion.
Nope, the analogy is just fine. Because if the police are informed that a murder has taken place and then they show up at the murder scene and there isn't a body, they're not going to investigate the murder any further. Someone simply CLAIMING there was a murder with no evidence is not going to have their claim investigated by the police. Even if they are told that they need to START investigating the murder and then eventually they'll find evidence of a dead body, they're not going to investigate. That would be putting the cart before the horse. FIRST it must be established that there's a dead body THEN the police will take the time and effort to investigate it. They DO NOT start investigating in hopes that eventually they MIGHT find evidence that someone was killed.
That analogy won’t work because there is other evidence besides the body, so the police do not need a body before they start investigating, or even to go to trial and get a conviction:

No Corpse, No Problem?
Although murder charges without a corpse are rare, nationally, about 86 percent of no-body murder cases that go to trial result in convictions, compared to all murder cases with conviction rates of 70 percent.

“Without a body, you need to make sure all your other evidence is overwhelming,” Meghan Doyle, a prosecutor familiar with no-body murder cases, tells A&E Real Crime. Most no-body murder cases that go to trial are based on lengthy investigations and an abundance of strong evidence.

No Corpse? No Problem. Notable Murder Convictions Without a Body

You are dead wrong if you will pardon the pun. I love to see justice carries out so I watch a lot of true crime programs so I know what I am talking about. The investigation starts as soon as someone goes missing under suspicious circumstances.

Nobody except atheists expect to have God prove He exists BEFORE they are willing to believe in a religion or in God.
Not sure why this is so hard for you to grasp. You expect others who are convinced that they have the true religions and all the messages god has to deliver to keep searching for new messengers and a new religion...
I do not expect those of older religions to be searching for a new religion unless they want a new religion. I was talking to you, an atheist, not to those of other religions.
yet you apparently aren't searching for a new messenger or religion... other than the one you've already found. Why is that? How do you know the messenger you're currently listening to isn't for an 'older age' and that the NEW REAL messenger just started spread god's NEWEST message in the past 10 years?
Why would I be searching for a new religion when I already have a new religion that states that there will not be any more new religions for at least 1000 years?

Below is how I know that no more legitimate Messengers have come since Baha’u’llah:

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 346
 
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