Will Everyone Eventually Be Saved?

[URAVIP2ME]

There is nothing in the old testament to say that the snake is Satan.
That was introduced in the 2nd edit.

What part of the Bible was Job, and what part of the Bible was Ezekiel?

Who was the 'covering cherub in Eden' of Ezekiel 28vs13-15 ?

Although the word serpent is not used the connection to Satan is made.

Remember that original serpent was just a tool in the hands of another.
A super human could easily use the serpent as a ventriloquist uses his dummy.

 

[cablescavenger]

What part of the Bible was Job, and what part of the Bible was Ezekiel?

Who was the 'covering cherub in Eden' of Ezekiel 28vs13-15 ?

Although the word serpent is not used the connection to Satan is made.

Remember that original serpent was just a tool in the hands of another.
A super human could easily use the serpent as a ventriloquist uses his dummy.

Maybe I am being a bit harsh,as it is you religion, so I am happy to explain why I pressed the issue, and move on.

There simply is no connection between the Serpent and Satan in the old testament, and in Job, Satan was Gods right hand man and prosecutor.

The link is made in the New Testament, written several hundred years later, so for me, it has no credibility, because it is an obvious attempt to manipulate the writings of the old testament. Perhaps their religious beliefs had changed over time and they believed Satan was the snake, but that does not change the fact that he wasn't during the old testament, and that should be acknowledged.

 

[Sleeppy]

Maybe I am being a bit harsh,as it is you religion, so I am happy to explain why I pressed the issue, and move on.

There simply is no connection between the Serpent and Satan in the old testament, and in Job, Satan was Gods right hand man and prosecutor.

The link is made in the New Testament, written several hundred years later, so for me, it has no credibility, because it is an obvious attempt to manipulate the writings of the old testament. Perhaps their religious beliefs had changed over time and they believed Satan was the snake, but that does not change the fact that he wasn't during the old testament, and that should be acknowledged.

No. In Job, Satan was not God's right hand or prosecutor. Satan was and is an accuser and a tempter. His role in the old testament hasn't changed in the new.

 

[cablescavenger]

No. In Job, Satan was not God's right hand or prosecutor. Satan was and is an accuser and a tempter. His role in the old testament hasn't changed in the new.

OK, so he was the son of God, he was at Gods side. Prosecutor was the wrong word, it has been many years since I read the bible.

He tested Job with permission from God, after doubting Jobs loyalty, and you will notice Satan wasn't a snake either having walked up and down the earth.

Defend it all you like, my point is clear, and still stands. Nowhere in the old testament does it say that the serpent is Satan. That is fact whether you like it or not.

You are just defending the rewrite, and you are free to do that too, but the rerwite was many years later and like I said earlier, it is apparent that views changed in that period, and this is an addition by man.

 

[Sleeppy]

OK, so he was the son of God, he was at Gods side. Prosecutor was the wrong word, it has been many years since I read the bible.

He tested Job with permission from God, after doubting Jobs loyalty, and you will notice Satan wasn't a snake either having walked up and down the earth.

Defend it all you like, my point is clear, and still stands. Nowhere in the old testament does it say that the serpent is Satan. That is fact whether you like it or not.

You are just defending the rewrite, and you are free to do that too, but the rerwite was many years later and like I said earlier, it is apparent that views changed in that period, and this is an addition by man.

I never told you he was a snake and don't care to get into that with you. I accept the new testament, so it doesn't matter to me if it doesn't specify.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Maybe I am being a bit harsh,as it is you religion, so I am happy to explain why I pressed the issue, and move on.
There simply is no connection between the Serpent and Satan in the old testament, and in Job, Satan was Gods right hand man and prosecutor.
The link is made in the New Testament, written several hundred years later, so for me, it has no credibility, because it is an obvious attempt to manipulate the writings of the old testament. Perhaps their religious beliefs had changed over time and they believed Satan was the snake, but that does not change the fact that he wasn't during the old testament, and that should be acknowledged.

Are you saying then God was having a conversation with a literal animal [serpent] at Gen 3v15 ?
What would be the point of conversing with a literal serpent that could not understand what God was saying ?

Bible prophecy is progressive in meaning not explained all at once.
-Proverbs 4v18
Over periods of time slowly the identify of Satan and the identify of Messiah was realized.
At the time of Daniel [9vs25,26] No one yet knew who Messiah would prove to be.
Because of the '70 weeks of years' mentioned the people of the first century would know to expect Messiah to arrive on the scene.
That is why the people of Luke [3v15] were in 'expectation' of who Messiah might be.

If everything stopped with the Hebrew OT Scriptures,
then God's people would still be following the Constitution of the Mosaic law. What would be the point of the Hebrew prophecies if there were to be none?

Who is the 'Branch' [Heb: wenetser] of Isaiah's chapter 11 prophecy ?

 

[cablescavenger]

Are you saying then God was having a conversation with a literal animal [serpent] at Gen 3v15 ?
What would be the point of conversing with a literal serpent that could not understand what God was saying ?

Bible prophecy is progressive in meaning not explained all at once.
-Proverbs 4v18
Over periods of time slowly the identify of Satan and the identify of Messiah was realized.
At the time of Daniel [9vs25,26] No one yet knew who Messiah would prove to be.
Because of the '70 weeks of years' mentioned the people of the first century would know to expect Messiah to arrive on the scene.
That is why the people of Luke [3v15] were in 'expectation' of who Messiah might be.

If everything stopped with the Hebrew OT Scriptures,
then God's people would still be following the Constitution of the Mosaic law. What would be the point of the Hebrew prophecies if there were to be none?

Who is the 'Branch' [Heb: wenetser] of Isaiah's chapter 11 prophecy ?

What is the point indeed? I think you would make a good atheist yet.

:angel2:

 

[John Thiel]

Reine and Uravip2me show signs of being Jehovah's Witnesses. Not that it's pertinent to the discussion, but it's just interesting to me. If they are, I have spotted by reading their views, which makes me a good spotter.

 

[blackout]

Will Everyone Eventually Be Saved?

Depends on the size of the Universe's hard drive.

 

[Pegg]

Reine and Uravip2me show signs of being Jehovah's Witnesses. Not that it's pertinent to the discussion, but it's just interesting to me. If they are, I have spotted by reading their views, which makes me a good spotter.

Reine is not a JW...and i know that from reading her views.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Reine and Uravip2me show signs of being Jehovah's Witnesses.

Doesn't Reine believe everyone is saved?
Jehovah's Witnesses do Not believe everyone is saved.
Matthew wrote Jesus ransom covers 'many' not all or everyone.
-Matthew 20v28 B

The definition of the Lake of Fire is: 'second death'.- [Rev 20vs13,14]
No one comes out of 'second death' including Satan. [Rev 21v8; Heb. 2v14 B]

The literal fire of the literal Gehenna garbage pit was to destroy. Not purify.
Destroy as any refuse is gotten rid of completely.
The wicked according to Psalm [92v7] are annihilated or destroyed forever.
Forever means permanently.

If everyone is saved what would be the point of Paul's being concerned about ending up being a castaway?
-1st Cor 9v27

Or, why would Jesus bother to say the one who endures to the end is saved?
-Matt 24v13

Mark [3v29] mentions No forgiveness forever because of being guilty of the everlasting sin of Luke 12v10; Matt 12v32.

Doesn't the word 'impossible' mean impossible at Hebrews 6vs4-6 ?
Impossible to renew to repentance ?

 

[crimson]

I would think that all were saved-past-present & future when Christ said "It is finished." If this were not so or if there was another loose string that would have to be played out, then there would be no victory at the cross. It would still hinge on something. I think the former view is held by Lutherans-that if it were not fulfilled at Calvary, then it becomes sort of a I gotcha situation. The Catholic view is similar but throws the caveat in to still keep repenting every step of the way. What I dislike about the Catholic device is it is always preoccupied w/ sin. If one has to consume themselves w/ that much worry-knowing that none of us are perfect, then why bother being born in the first place.

 

[Shermana]

I would think that all were saved-past-present & future when Christ said "It is finished." If this were not so or if there was another loose string that would have to be played out, then there would be no victory at the cross

But Paul says "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling", and Jesus was clear that "many will be called but few will be chosen". The "victory at the cross" is simply another sort of Sacrifice. 2 Peter 2:20 is clear that believers can still fall away and lose their salvation. There is still work and effort involved with the individual. The nature of the Sacrifice of Yashua must be understood in Jewish terms of Sacrifice and not later gentile Theologians. Hebrews 10:26 as well is pretty clear that his sacrifice doesn't cover future sins. And what is sin exactly?

Even if you disagree, why does Paul say that unrepentant fornicators will not be saved? Paul has whole lists of sinners who "will not enter the Kingdom".

Christ's victory was in teaching his Disciples how exactly to live, not just how to die. If that were the case that Christ saved everyone through his death, you need to basically snip out 99% of what he teaches.

If one has to consume themselves w/ that much worry-knowing that none of us are perfect, then why bother being born in the first place.

- Maybe to test which souls are less perfect than others and less willing to work towards perfection.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I would think that all were saved-past-present & future when Christ said "It is finished." .

If 'all saved' why would Jesus bother to mention the unforgivable sin? -Mt. 12 v 32

Why would Matthew use the word 'many' and not the word 'all' at Mt. 20 v 28 which states that Jesus ransom covers MANY. It does Not say 'all'. Not all because all do not repent.

Isn't repenting required if one does not wish to perish [ be destroyed ]? -2nd Peter 3 v 9.

Even in the Hebrew Scriptures there is No support for universal salvation.
Exodus [34 v 7 A ] mentions 'that will by No means clear the guilty'.....

What happens to those of Proverbs 2 vs 21, 22 ?_________

If all saved then how do you explain Hebrews 6 vs 4 to 6 ?______________

 

[Pegg]

There simply is no connection between the Serpent and Satan in the old testament, and in Job, Satan was Gods right hand man and prosecutor.

there is nothing in the book of Job to suggest that Satan was 'Gods right hand man'
Rather, Satans very name means 'adversary'.... this name was given to him because he was opposing Gods will rather then obediently doing Gods will.

When that angel began to resist God, then he made himself an 'adversary' of God.

If he was being obedient to God, he would not be called Gods adversary.

The link is made in the New Testament, written several hundred years later, so for me, it has no credibility, because it is an obvious attempt to manipulate the writings of the old testament. Perhaps their religious beliefs had changed over time and they believed Satan was the snake, but that does not change the fact that he wasn't during the old testament, and that should be acknowledged.

there were some things that moses did not reveal about the future or Gods purpose that some later prophets did reveal. Does that make Moses writings any less then inspired or directed by God? No.
And in the same way, the later writings of the apostles of Jesus, which have all the hallmarks of inspired writings, revealed things which the earlier prophets did not know.

God has revealed his truth slowly to mankind through various individuals who have lived over different periods of time....John was the final revealer of Gods truths and he was the one who identified the 'serpent' of the garden of Eden

Revelation 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth

This revelation from God is knowledge that was unknown to the early hebrews...they really didnt know much about the identity of Satan, true... But God did not leave his people without full knowledge of Satan for all times. We know much more about Satan then they did because we must stand against him in a greater way then they ever did...they had the prophets among them, and God was even with them in their camp, we dont have that. So we need such knowledge to know how to protect ourselves and God has provided it.

 

[HeatherAnn]

It has always been my belief that everyone will be saved. I had this problem: when salvation arrived through Christ, what of those previously condemned?

Who condemned them?
Who has power to save?

"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation... the kingdom of God is within you." -Luke 17

Let's just consider NOW... since the afterlife is still unknown.
Who has power to condemn you, to make you feel like a piece of poop?
YOU.
Who has power to save you, to make you feel inspired to love others as yourself?
YOU.

Christ is not Jesus' last name, but what he became & encouraged us to follow him & become... a level of awareness, that leaves childish illusions in the dust.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Who condemned them?
Who has power to save?
"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation... the kingdom of God is within you." -Luke 17
Let's just consider NOW... since the afterlife is still unknown.
Who has power to condemn you, to make you feel like a piece of poop?
YOU.
Who has power to save you, to make you feel inspired to love others as yourself?
YOU.
Christ is not Jesus' last name, but what he became & encouraged us to follow him & become... a level of awareness, that leaves childish illusions in the dust.

Wasn't Jesus addressing the Pharisees at Luke [17 vs 20,21] ?_________
How could God's kingdom be within those hate-filled Pharisees ?
Jesus was just within their midst not inside of them.
It was not until after Jesus concluded what he said to the Pharisees that Jesus now addresses his disciples starting in verse 22.

Jesus illustration of Luke [19 vs 11-15] shows the kingdom would Not appear instantly or immediately, but first Jesus [as the nobleman] would go away for a while before returning in kingdom glory [ be king of God's kingdom at a future time frame ]

How was the afterlife unknown to Jesus?
Jesus taught before resurrection the dead are in a sleep-like state.- John 11 vs 11-14.
Before God resurrected Jesus out of hell, then Jesus would have been in a sleeping condition until God resurrected Jesus out of hell.- Acts 2 vs 27,31,32

Doesn't Exodus [ 34 v 7 ] say that by No means clear the guilty?_____
Who decides who is 'guilty' but Jesus as righteous Judge.- Isaiah 11 vs 3,4
Doesn't Jesus separate the 'guilty goats' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32,46 ?

 

[Astravalon]

It has always been my belief that everyone will be saved. I had this problem: when salvation arrived through Christ, what of those previously condemned? It seems to me Christ was looking for the salvation of all men. Surely he has the power to retrieve those who previously existed from hell after they have spent their term there, and would use this power. But religion speaks of "eternal damnation". Is this not something Christ would bring to an end, just as he came to redeem those who would at the time be believers?

Yes, if indeed any salvation was ever really necessary in the first place, I do believe everyone is, or will be, saved.

Bypassing all the mental gymnastics I would have to go through to come to the very unflattering conclusion that God is somehow inefficient in accomplishing His clearly stated goal (as it appears in the bible, anyway) regarding the salvation of mankind, I sum it up this way:

Some believe that God can save everyone, but won't.
Others belive that God wants to save everyone, but can't.
Still others believe that God both can and will save everyone.
​

Now, out of the three scenarios, I find the last one to be the most God-glorifying. If I have to apologize to Him on the Last Day for overestimating His abilities, at the very least that will provide more than a little comic relief to an otherwise ... intense ... situation.

Also, at least according to the bible:

God says He desires all mankind to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).
He also says that He will do all His desire (Isaiah 46:10).
So, doing the math, it would seem that 1 Tim 2:4 + Isaiah 46:10 = All Saved.
​

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes, God desires ALL to be saved - 2nd Peter 3 v 9 - however if one does not repent then one is Not saved.

Jesus ransom -Matthew 20 v 28 - covers MANY. It does Not say ALL.
Not all because all do not repent.

Those committing the unforgivable sin are Not saved.- Matthew 12 v 32; Hebrews 6 vs 4-6

Exodus 34 v 7 already taught that by No means will the guilty be cleared.
'by no means' would include Jesus ransom Not covering the guilty wicked. - Psalm 92 v 7

 

[SteveGrayFTW]

It has always been my belief that everyone will be saved. I had this problem: when salvation arrived through Christ, what of those previously condemned? It seems to me Christ was looking for the salvation of all men. Surely he has the power to retrieve those who previously existed from hell after they have spent their term there, and would use this power. But religion speaks of "eternal damnation". Is this not something Christ would bring to an end, just as he came to redeem those who would at the time be believers?

I know a whole lot of conversation happened between this post and now, but this is something that always bugged me about the Christian beliefs I grew up with.

Christianity is only about 2000 years old, but there was a whole lot of history before that, so there would be billions of people who didn't even know Jesus existed, let only died for their sins. Was that act retroactive, or are those people pretty much S O L?