Wiccan God and Goddess

[Runt]

Boy oh boy, this is a tricky one. I didn't post this as the "PAGAN God and Goddess" because I think THAT view is at the same time much broader and much more specific than this (when looking at an overview of ALL pagan Gods vs looking at the gods for one particular pagan tradition...there are SOOO many!)

So... the Wiccan God and Goddess:

First there are generally 4 views in Wicca regarding the deities

1) There is one God and one Goddess. They are polar deities representing two halves of one the "God" (the "incomprehensible God"...neither male nor female, neither good nor evil, etc)

2) There are many Gods and many Goddesses. They are polar deities representing different manifestations of the one God (the "incomprehensible God")

3) There is one God and one Goddess. They are INDIVIDUAL deities each controlling half of a polar reality.

4) There are many Gods and many Goddesses. They are INDIVIDUAL deities each controlling parts of a polar reality.

Most Wiccans I have encountered go for one of the first two views, and most of those following the second view regard all the different goddesses as manifestations of the one Goddess and all different gods as manifestations as the one God... and the Goddess and the God as two halves of the ONE GOD/source/deity (again, that "incomprehensible God"... more on this below"). Therefore, I will describe things from this first view (since all other views can be inferred from the information given here).

The "Incomprehensible God"

For Wiccans, the "Incomprehensible God" is not a person as it is in other faiths, but something more akin to energy. It created--and IS--the Universe. As John Baines says John Baines in The Secret Science, "This energy we call God is manifested in the form of a double force, creative on the one hand and destructive on the other. One and the other are mutually in balance. The creative force is permanently creating and giving life, generating. The destructive force seeks at all times to destroy..."

It is not a somebody but a something, and not being a person, it does not have the characteristics of a person (physical appearance, gender, personality, etc). Marion Zimmer Bradley summed it up pretty well in Priestess of Avalon when she wrote, "No mortal can touch the ultimate deity. You who life in flesh see with the eyes of the world, one thing at a time, so you see God in many guises, just as different images are reflected in the many facets of a jewel. To each facet you have given a form and a name..."

Obviously, while all can acknowledge that such a God is powerful indeed, and worthy of awe, it is difficult for us mere humans to have a very fulfilling relationship with a God that is not a person, not personal, that we can barely begin to define. Therefore, Wiccans generally prefer to work with different ASPECTS of this force rather than with this force in its totality (much as you use your hands to eat and your feet to walk and say "I eat, I walk", even though these hands and feet are not YOU but part of you). The Goddess and God are the personifications of this "Incomprehensible God", and they represent the aspects of this power. But because they too are so complex, they have various aspects WITHIN themselves as well:

The God and Goddess:

Because the God and Goddess are polar entities, it is difficult to define one without the other. However, it is easiest to understand when you think of them like Yin and Yang--they complement, define, and complete one another.

The Goddess represents the feminine side of nature and is the great Mother of us all, and the earth and the moon. She receptive and is associated with passive energy, night, cold, receptivity, silver and dark blue.

The God represents the masculine side of nature and is the great Father of us all, and he the sun and the stars. He is projective and is associated with active energy, day, heat, gold and yellow.

The Goddess:

She has three main personifications, making her the Triple Goddess of the Moon. She is the Maiden (represented by the waxing moon), Mother (represented by the full moon), and Crone (represented by the waxing moon).

The Maiden is the crescent moon, virginal and delicate. She grows stronger and brighter as she comes into greater maturity. She is the pure independent athlete and huntress, the lady of all wild things. She falls in love and becomes pregnant at Beltaine with the young God.

The Mother is the full moon, her womb swollen with life. She is the provider for us all. In this aspect the Maiden Goddess of the Hunt becomes the Queen of the Harvest and Mother Earth,bestowing her bounty upon the earth. She gives birth to the young God and nurtures him to adulthood.

The Crone is the waxing moon, a wise old woman. She imparts to us the mysteries of life, healing, visions, and death. Like the moon, she diminishes, her energies wane, and she eventually dies. But she will be reborn and reign once again as the Maiden.

The God:

The God is the Goddess's consort as well as her son. Like the Goddess, he also dies and is reborn. At Samhain he lays down his life for the land, and is reborn to the Goddess at Yule or Imbolc (depending on the tradition). He has three major aspects: the Horned Man, the Green Man, and the Sun God.

As the Horned Man he is the master of the woods, the hunting god who identifies with his prey. He is seen as a man with horns or as a horned stag, bull, or mountain goat. He impregnates Mother Earth, and watches over and defends her creatures.

As the Green Man he is also a god of the forest. While the Horned Man represents kinship and mastery over animals of the hunt, the Green Man symbolizes a deep kinship with trees and all plant life. He is usually shown as a male head formed as a leaf mask. He ensures the fertility of the fields and secures a healthy crop.

As the Sun God he is the lord of light, inspiration, music, and healing. He is responsible for rising every morning and nurturing our world with sunlight.

 

[blessed]

no one please take this seriously but when i was first entering wicca i remember my first introduction to the God and Goddess- i will never forget it, she told me

"the God and Goddess have many different personalities and sides to them- if you think them as having scitzophrenia and each personality is a manifestion of the same God, Godess"

i will never forget that!

i am wiccan i believe the God and Godess are in a sense one as they are equal and work together, although soem branches of wicca focus mainly on the Goddess

 

[Runt]

I personally think that focusing just on the Goddess is just as sexist as focusing only on a male God (as in the Christian, Jewish, Islamic, and other religions)... and when people following only the Goddess condemn other religions for following only a male God, they are being hypocritical.

They excuse such hypocricy with statements like, "The Goddess has been ignored for so long. It is Her turn to have the limelight." Yet it seems they are being disrespectful to their God, and it blinds them even further to the total truth of their God (or what little of that truth we mere humans can comprehend). A MAJOR pet peeve of mine, especially when these people acknowledge that there IS the male aspect of God too!

 

[blessed]

i agree- i think its an italian branch that starts with an "S" :roll:

 

[Entil'Zha]

That's how people are when they try to balance extremes. They jump from one side to the other like they’re on a teeter-totter. Not realizing that standing in the middle with one foot an equal distance apart on both sides of the board is the best path to balancing out the board.

 

[Paraprakrti]

One question:

Who gives birth to the Goddess?

 

[Fra.Morelia]

I would assume it is the same as with most deities: they have always been and are the creator forces, much like Allah/Jehova(whom I conisder the same God)

 

[Paraprakrti]

I would assume it is the same as with most deities: they have always been and are the creator forces, much like Allah/Jehova(whom I conisder the same God)

From the first post:

The God is the Goddess's consort as well as her son. Like the Goddess, he also dies and is reborn.

It says that the Goddess dies and is reborn. Reborn to whom?

 

[Fra.Morelia]

Not really sure, I am a Chaoist, not a Pagan, but I understand it to be an eternal cylce thing. about as resolvable as the chicken/egg dilemma plauging man from the first fowl.
I can only imagine a god/goddess kicking off and being reborn as akin to our universe finally collapsing, forming another singularity, and then another big bang.

 

[Runt]

Damn, I thought I answered this yesterday, but that must have been when the site went down.

Alright, here we go again:

Who gives birth to the Goddess?

If you understand the Goddess to be a personification of the Incomprehensible God, then nobody gives birth to her (except perhaps herself), because nobdoy gives birth to the I.G. (shortened for convenience, and not because anyone ever refers to It that way). You have to understand that the myths and descriptions of the God and the Goddess are basically metaphorical; they are not intended to be taken literally. Instead, they represent various ISOLATED truths about the world: females are the ones who give birth--therefore it is natural to assume that the feminine aspect of the I.G. is what gave birth to everything else in the universe.

It says that the Goddess dies and is reborn. Reborn to whom?

Again, this is meant metaphorically and not literally. The Goddess was being compared to the moon, which waxes until it is full, then wanes until it is new... just as a woman may grow until maturity, then decline until death. As for her "rebirth"... it is not a matter of being reborn TO something or someone so much as RETURNING... a spontaneous occurance believed to be simultaneous with her death, meaning she is never REALLY gone. In that way I personally think it would be more appropriate to compare her to a wave....

She has always existed and always will exist. She waxes and wanes in strength but she is never really gone because she never declines into death. Thus she represents the totality of creation: the sun waxes and wanes in strength but never goes away completely. The moon waxes and wanes visually but we know scientifically it never actually goes away. The plantlife on the earth waxes and wanes but always returns after winter. Human populations wax and wane but never disappear completely, because as one human dies another is always being born somewhere.

 

[LeNinjaChic]

This explanation is truly beautiful.

I may be pagan after all....lol

:mrgreen:

 

[DontFearMe]

I personally think that focusing just on the Goddess is just as sexist as focusing only on a male God (as in the Christian, Jewish, Islamic, and other religions)...

Actually in Islam we do not consider God to be of any sex. The fact that Allah is refered to as He is nothing more than language as in most languages. One is male on the basis of their sexual part. We dont think of God like this. Thank you.

 

[Fra.Morelia]

Hm, I did not know that Islam had a non-sexed view of God. Nice to know. Thanks for the info, Dontfearme.
Also, most Pagans will tell you that the God/Goddess thing is also a point of view, but for the militant ones, I agree:It is silly.

 

[Runt]

Actually in Islam we do not consider God to be of any sex. The fact that Allah is refered to as He is nothing more than language as in most languages. One is male on the basis of their sexual part. We dont think of God like this. Thank you.

That's interesting! I never knew that before! Is Allah then representative of the total energy (meaning considered to have male and female aspects even if he doesn't have male and female "sexual parts"), or is Allah considered to be truly without sex?

 

[Paraprakrti]

Damn, I thought I answered this yesterday, but that must have been when the site went down.

Alright, here we go again:

Who gives birth to the Goddess?

If you understand the Goddess to be a personification of the Incomprehensible God, then nobody gives birth to her (except perhaps herself), because nobdoy gives birth to the I.G. (shortened for convenience, and not because anyone ever refers to It that way). You have to understand that the myths and descriptions of the God and the Goddess are basically metaphorical; they are not intended to be taken literally. Instead, they represent various ISOLATED truths about the world: females are the ones who give birth--therefore it is natural to assume that the feminine aspect of the I.G. is what gave birth to everything else in the universe.

I see... so it is not that this Goddess necessarily exists, but that She is a representation of certain characteristics of the Godhead. Would ths be correct?
Also, I understand the theology as, "Mother nature, Father God". So in your analogy with the Goddess giving birth to the universe, would you say that She is equated to material nature? If so, I can understand, and would further add the concept of a "seed-giving Father". But it does not seem that the pagan conception of God plays this role given that He is born from the Goddess. Metaphorically, this appears as to say that God, the Seed-Giving Father, is a product of material nature. Therefore, that material nature is superior to God. Am I missing something in my reasoning?

It says that the Goddess dies and is reborn. Reborn to whom?

Again, this is meant metaphorically and not literally. The Goddess was being compared to the moon, which waxes until it is full, then wanes until it is new... just as a woman may grow until maturity, then decline until death. As for her "rebirth"... it is not a matter of being reborn TO something or someone so much as RETURNING... a spontaneous occurance believed to be simultaneous with her death, meaning she is never REALLY gone. In that way I personally think it would be more appropriate to compare her to a wave....

Ok, in this case, the Goddess is equated to the concept of a superior being, transcendental to the material nature. That She exists even before she takes birth. I would then add that perhaps there is a place where She resides transcendental to birth and death, assuming that She actually exists at all.
According to what I follow, Krsna (God), takes birth in this world, but He existed before taking this birth. Also, He does not accept a material body. He is born due to His internal potency known as, "Yogamaya". And even though He takes birth here, He eternally exists in His spiritual abode, Vaikuntha, free from repeated birth and death. This is the concept I am trying to apply to the Goddess, metaphorically at least.

She has always existed and always will exist. She waxes and wanes in strength but she is never really gone because she never declines into death. Thus she represents the totality of creation: the sun waxes and wanes in strength but never goes away completely. The moon waxes and wanes visually but we know scientifically it never actually goes away. The plantlife on the earth waxes and wanes but always returns after winter. Human populations wax and wane but never disappear completely, because as one human dies another is always being born somewhere.

Well, yes... the moon is never really gone. It is just not visible to our imperfect perception. I can understand this philosophy of the Goddess. Thanks for clarifying it.
And on the note of God's gender, I agree that He transcends gender altogether. But, simultaneously, I understand that He is the Seed-Giving Father, in which material nature is the womb from which comes all of creation. It is in this position that we understand God, the Supreme Being, in a masculine sense. Although, God is simultaneously both genders and transcendental to them.

 

[Runt]

I see... so it is not that this Goddess necessarily exists, but that She is a representation of certain characteristics of the Godhead. Would ths be correct?

Yes, that is a good way to describe it.

Also, I understand the theology as, "Mother nature, Father God".

Well, that's not really Wiccan theology... in Wiccan theology the female and the male are God. The earth is sometimes believes to have feminine qualities (from it all living things spring forth, from it all living things take nourishment), but it is still God.

So in your analogy with the Goddess giving birth to the universe, would you say that She is equated to material nature?

In that particular analogy, yes. As I said, there are countless different analogies. In some cases the male is considered to manifest physically while the female is considered to manifest though energy (active vs passive energy), but again, it just depends on what analogy you are looking at.

If so, I can understand, and would further add the concept of a "seed-giving Father". But it does not seem that the pagan conception of God plays this role given that He is born from the Goddess.

Yes. I agree. I personally would rewrite the creation myth like this: First there was They. He was the male sun and She was the female moon. They were made for one another, and together They made everything else. They made the seasons and the earth, but doing so, imposed restrictions upon Themselves. Throughout the year He weakened, and They knew that when winter came He would die. Without His light to nurture the world, They knew that many of their creations would die, and that Winter would be eternal, and She would be alone. To prevent this, He impregnated Her with Himself. The baby would be born three months into the winter, and with His return the earth would warm again, nourishing life. So he impregnated her at Beltaine (May 2), died at Samhain (Oct 31), and was reborn at Imbolg (February 2... nine months after Beltaine and three months after Samhain).

Metaphorically, this appears as to say that God, the Seed-Giving Father, is a product of material nature. Therefore, that material nature is superior to God. Am I missing something in my reasoning?

You are looking at it too literally. There are many different myths and analogies, and they are only meant to reflect simple immediate truths, rather than ultimate eternal truths. The main lesson from the myth where the Goddess gives birth to the God and He dies and returns is simply this: death is only a temporary inturruption in life.

Personally I think the only reason he is not around at the beginning of the myth is this: to counteract the concept of a male creator god. The creator of the myth wanted to make a point by saying that life springs forth from females, not males... what they neglected to add (and I think they conveniently ignored) is that it takes a male AND the female to make life!

Ok, in this case, the Goddess is equated to the concept of a superior being, transcendental to the material nature. That She exists even before she takes birth. I would then add that perhaps there is a place where She resides transcendental to birth and death, assuming that She actually exists at all.

The Goddess is often referred to as the Triple Goddess: Maiden, Mother, and Crone. Yet some wiccans recognize a third aspect--the Dark Mother--which sounds all evil, but is really just referring to the mystery of death and the fact that mortals return to her when they die (until they are reborn). Thus, I think you are right when you suggest that "she resides transcendental to birth and death". In this aspect, I do not think she is really "dead"... I think she is in a state of transformation. As I said, I think a wave would be a better representation of her life. Imagine that there is a line. Beneath that line is death. Above that line is a wavey line. It approaches but never crosses that line. Imagine that the wave is her lifeline. She waxes and wanes in strength, but never actually dies. She understands the mystery of death, but she does not die herself.

This is, of course, entirely based on modern understanding of the universe. Today we know that the moon does not really disappear... we just can't see it. But in the olden days pagans did not know that the moon wasn't really gone. All they saw was that it disappeared completely once a month, before appearing again as a small sliver that got fuller and fuller and then thinner and thinner until it disappeared again. Birth, growth, decline, and death, vs a modern metaphorical understanding of waxing and waning ever-present power.

According to what I follow, Krsna (God), takes birth in this world, but He existed before taking this birth. Also, He does not accept a material body. He is born due to His internal potency known as, "Yogamaya". And even though He takes birth here, He eternally exists in His spiritual abode, Vaikuntha, free from repeated birth and death. This is the concept I am trying to apply to the Goddess, metaphorically at least.

I understand, and it makes sense.

And on the note of God's gender, I agree that He transcends gender altogether. But, simultaneously, I understand that He is the Seed-Giving Father, in which material nature is the womb from which comes all of creation. It is in this position that we understand God, the Supreme Being, in a masculine sense. Although, God is simultaneously both genders and transcendental to them.

Yes, the Wiccan Incomprehensible God transcends gender altogether, but as a giver of life represents both the male AND the female (for it takes both to create life).

 

[Paraprakrti]

@Runt

That is all very interesting...

I have a question, sort of off topic, do you accept these teachings to be true? I mean, the lessons the myth's are trying to convey. For example, you stated that the God dying and being reborn was saying that "death is only a temporary interruption in life". Do you agree with this message?
I ask because in another forum it seems that you play the atheistic role, suggesting that life itself is inferior rather than superior as the above quote of yours suggests.

 

[Runt]

I have a question, sort of off topic, do you accept these teachings to be true? I mean, the lessons the myth's are trying to convey.

In a metaphorical rather than literal sense. I was raised Wiccan but am unable to accept the idea of a purposeful God, and so prefer to apply the lessons Wiccan mythology teaches to life in general (changing truth and constantly using different metaphors), rather than to describe a spiritual reality (static truth and using a set of static metaphors).

For example, you stated that the God dying and being reborn was saying that "death is only a temporary interruption in life". Do you agree with this message?

I think it is something we see in nature. Life is essentially self-renewing and continuous (although I believe that eventually it will cease completely). But I look at this regeneration of life as occuring to life as a whole, rather than to an individual life. I do not believe in reincarnation. I think there is no conscious existence after death, although because energy cannot be created or destroyed, the energy that used to compose our bodies continues to exist and may go toward supporting other life (like a carrot, once eaten, becomes ATP. The carrot was not reincarnated, but its energy still exists and has become a part of other life. ATP will eventually be converted to heat energy. Heat energy was once ATP energy which was once carrot energy, if you know what I mean. )

I ask because in another forum it seems that you play the atheistic role, suggesting that life itself is inferior rather than superior as the above quote of yours suggests.

LMAO, I was wondering when you were going to ask this! Although I do not believe in a conscious God, I do not like to call myself an atheist because my worldview and the general atheist worldview do not coinside (I do not believe science is infallible or gives us a completely accurate portrayal of reality, and I believe in the possibility of "supernatural phenomena" and incorporate spiritual metaphors into my life whereas most atheists are "realists" and do not). I am basically eclectic in my beliefs, and I generally refer to myself as a "Unitarian Universalist eclectic agnostic philosophical-Taoist" to demonstrate that eclecticism.

As far as life being superior or inferior, I believe neither. I won't get into that too deeply here (because this is not the place to talk about Taoism--however, if you would like, I'll PM you some information about my beliefs to clarify. I think it may help you understand where I am coming from in future discussions. Tell me if you would like me to send it.) I think life just IS. It exists. It was not consciously created and therefore is not any more important than anything else in the universe, but this does not make it inferior either (which is also subjective concept that I reject for reasons you can find in the Taoism forum).

Check out these threads:
TAOISM: http://www.religiousforums.com/park...&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
UUISM: http://www.religiousforums.com/parkweb/viewtopic.php?t=205 and then http://www.religiousforums.com/parkweb/viewtopic.php?t=472