why Yaweh is not a demon.

[Luminous]

Spoiler: Warning, some have become seriously angered by comments and suggestions stemming from this question.

what stops "Yaweh" from having been a demon that tricked humanity?

I do not want anyone who can't handle the question to post in an attempt to bully and try to anger me. I want serious discussion on this topic. Is it possible? Is it most likely? We will be working from the premise that such a being has existed and the stories and mythologies about it are true or generally true, as well as from the stance of what believe in such a being has lead to and what it does to humanity in general.

 

[Pegg]

Spoiler: Warning, some have become seriously angered by comments and suggestions stemming from this question.

what stops "Yaweh" from having been a demon that tricked humanity?

I do not want anyone who can't handle the question to post in an attempt to bully and try to anger me. I want serious discussion on this topic. Is it possible? Is it most likely? We will be working from the premise that such a being has existed and the stories and mythologies about it are true and literal, as well as from the stance of what believe in such a being has lead to and what it does to humanity in general.

the goodness of Jehovah is beyond the ability of demons

Jehovah encourages love, righteousness, goodness, kindness etc...demons inflict pain and suffering and promote animalistic practices and desires.

The demon worship practiced by ancient cultures such as the cananites show their demon gods wanted blood. The worshipers drank the blood of their human sacrifices which is something Jehovah strongly denounced and it was the reason why he wanted the culture of the cananites completely annihilated. They also used sex as a part of their worship and we know that the worship of Jehovah required that sex be kept between a husband and wife only...the demon gods promoted the use of male and female prostitutes at their temples and even beastiality was promoted.

There is no way Jehovah is a demon posing as a good guy. But lets say he is a 'demon' posing as a good guy...then his standards and morals are good enough to lift his status from demon (which means wicked and unclean) to holy (clean and righteous) which means he cannot be a 'demon' at all, but rather he is a holy spirit as opposed to a wicked one.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Yaweh also encourages war, torture and slavery

Funny how these things don't cross your mind, Pegg.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Don't forget the famine and disease.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Infanticide.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Human sacrifice.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Plague

 

[fallingblood]

Yaweh also encourages war, torture and slavery

Funny how these things don't cross your mind, Pegg.

Or maybe humans encourage those ideas and then blame it on God? Seems much more reasonable. Unless you want to take the Bible out of context; both literary and historical.



As for whether or not God is a demon or could be considered as such, a definition of demon is a must. Are you talking about the Christian idea of a demon? If so, it is highly unlikely that God would then be a demon as a demon in Christianity is not a supreme being of any kind. They are basically lowly dominions.

Really though, one will never find evidence that God is just a demon. Maybe one could make a weak argument that God is more like an evil supreme being, but not much more. Especially when one considers we know virtually nothing about God, if he/it even exists.

 

[Levite]

what stops "Yaweh" from having been a demon that tricked humanity?

I do not want anyone who can't handle the question to post in an attempt to bully and try to anger me. I want serious discussion on this topic. Is it possible? Is it most likely? We will be working from the premise that such a being has existed and the stories and mythologies about it are true and literal, as well as from the stance of what believe in such a being has lead to and what it does to humanity in general.

First of all, while I have no problem presuming that God's existence is true, the word "literal" is a little unsettling, because it usually seems to imply an incredibly simplistic reading of Tanakh texts, which simply is not nor has ever been how Judaism reads its own sacred texts.

Second of all, as always, it is worth noting that "Yahweh," much like "Jehovah" are not correct pronunciations of the tetragrammaton: they are errors resulting from the misunderstandings of translators ancient and modern. The correct pronunciation of the tetragrammaton simply is not known.

In any case, in regards to the OP query: What in the world would a demon gain by concerning itself with the justice of human society, and the better treatment of the downtrodden?

Demons are said to be unquenchably narcissistic in their behavior: that is, they care for no one's good but their own. But the majority of the commandments that God gave the Jewish People (some of which have been desultorily adopted by non-Jews) focus on trying to create a holier, more just, more ethical, and more focused on spiritual awareness and clarity-- the ultimate purposes of which, we are taught, is twofold: not only to become closer to God and more connected to Him, but also to increase our understanding of why a just society is necessary and to better motivate us toward tikkun olam (repair or perfecting of the world). But demons have no ethics. They have no morality. They are utterly disinterested in the good even of others of their kind, much less mortal creatures.

Demons are said to hunger for the opportunity to physicalize, to become creatures of flesh and blood, in order to indulge their base appetites. But God declares Himself to be without body and form, shuns even the idea of physicalizing Him, nor does He eat or drink or have any apparatus for sexuality. Rather, those commandments that have to do with the body, with physical appetites, with sexuality, are about us and our behaviors, not about God's behaviors. And they all have to do with trying to moderate those appetites (whereas demons are said to favor excess in indulgence) and to make their experience more spiritual and holy (whereas demons are said to revel in baseness and coarseness).

Also, at least in Jewish demonology, demons acknowledge God as their creator and are bound by His name-- even Ashmodai King of Demons, who is said to have been the first of demons. There is no mention in any text of any demon who claims that God is a demon: and why would other demons not reveal such knowledge, especially when it is said that they distrust and compete with others of their own kind, and are said to delight in the causing of mischief, even-- if not especially-- against others of their kind?

I'm sorry, but the suggestion that God is some kind of demon is simply ridiculous.

 

[Twig pentagram]

First of all, while I have no problem presuming that God's existence is true, the word "literal" is a little unsettling, because it usually seems to imply an incredibly simplistic reading of Tanakh texts, which simply is not nor has ever been how Judaism reads its own sacred texts.

Second of all, as always, it is worth noting that "Yahweh," much like "Jehovah" are not correct pronunciations of the tetragrammaton: they are errors resulting from the misunderstandings of translators ancient and modern. The correct pronunciation of the tetragrammaton simply is not known.

In any case, in regards to the OP query: What in the world would a demon gain by concerning itself with the justice of human society, and the better treatment of the downtrodden?

Demons are said to be unquenchably narcissistic in their behavior: that is, they care for no one's good but their own. But the majority of the commandments that God gave the Jewish People (some of which have been desultorily adopted by non-Jews) focus on trying to create a holier, more just, more ethical, and more focused on spiritual awareness and clarity-- the ultimate purposes of which, we are taught, is twofold: not only to become closer to God and more connected to Him, but also to increase our understanding of why a just society is necessary and to better motivate us toward tikkun olam (repair or perfecting of the world). But demons have no ethics. They have no morality. They are utterly disinterested in the good even of others of their kind, much less mortal creatures.

Demons are said to hunger for the opportunity to physicalize, to become creatures of flesh and blood, in order to indulge their base appetites. But God declares Himself to be without body and form, shuns even the idea of physicalizing Him, nor does He eat or drink or have any apparatus for sexuality. Rather, those commandments that have to do with the body, with physical appetites, with sexuality, are about us and our behaviors, not about God's behaviors. And they all have to do with trying to moderate those appetites (whereas demons are said to favor excess in indulgence) and to make their experience more spiritual and holy (whereas demons are said to revel in baseness and coarseness).

Also, at least in Jewish demonology, demons acknowledge God as their creator and are bound by His name-- even Ashmodai King of Demons, who is said to have been the first of demons. There is no mention in any text of any demon who claims that God is a demon: and why would other demons not reveal such knowledge, especially when it is said that they distrust and compete with others of their own kind, and are said to delight in the causing of mischief, even-- if not especially-- against others of their kind?

I'm sorry, but the suggestion that God is some kind of demon is simply ridiculous.

The reason a demon would act like it created everything and do all those other things you are wondering about is ............ to trick humans into worshipping it and to kill and conquer for it's sake. Just a thought.

 

[Luminous]

the goodness of Jehovah is beyond the ability of demons

Jehovah encourages love, righteousness, goodness, kindness etc...demons inflict pain and suffering and promote animalistic practices and desires.

Though I agree demons might be unable to be good, following the common line of thought they are deceivers and can pretend to be good to acomplish an evil task. So since many bad things have come from the Abrahamic's general trend of thought, I think that Yaweh could easily be one of those supposedly fallen angels who is very good at tricking people.

The demon worship practiced by ancient cultures such as the cananites show their demon gods wanted blood. The worshipers drank the blood of their human sacrifices which is something Jehovah strongly denounced and it was the reason why he wanted the culture of the cananites completely annihilated. They also used sex as a part of their worship and we know that the worship of Jehovah required that sex be kept between a husband and wife only...the demon gods promoted the use of male and female prostitutes at their temples and even beastiality was promoted.

I'm sure there are plenty of demons (Native American and Egyptian and Chinese, Norse trickster gods etc) myths in which the demons don't care about blood at all, so couldn't one like those pretend to care so that it gains more worshipers and commits more hidden crimes? couldn't a demon pretend to care about sexual morality in order to gain worshipers? Also I have heard some arguments that Jews beleived Yaweh allowed female prostitution and lesbianism within females and since polygamy was allowed by Yaweh that a husband could have sex with more than one of them at a time.

There is no way Jehovah is a demon posing as a good guy. But lets say he is a 'demon' posing as a good guy...then his standards and morals are good enough to lift his status from demon (which means wicked and unclean) to holy (clean and righteous) which means he cannot be a 'demon' at all, but rather he is a holy spirit as opposed to a wicked one.

but what if it is just that cunning? Yahweh seems to have some pretty low morals form my knowledge of what it supposedly did and allowed and commanded. Jehovah is really a different story because then you have to factor in Jesus who preached some seemingly very original things. In Jehovah's case who is to say a fallen angel can't repent and try to be good later (in this example it would have happened 2000 years ago). In any case Christianity has lead and allowed many horrible things, so perhaps it's "lifted morals" are just a ruze for worshiping it.

Very good arguments in general though.

 

[Luminous]

Or maybe humans encourage those ideas and then blame it on God? Seems much more reasonable. Unless you want to take the Bible out of context; both literary and historical.

What do you mean? Yaweh never encourage such things? We were working from some premises. But that was sort of the point, "Yaweh" allows God to be blamed.

As for whether or not God is a demon or could be considered as such, a definition of demon is a must. Are you talking about the Christian idea of a demon? If so, it is highly unlikely that God would then be a demon as a demon in Christianity is not a supreme being of any kind. They are basically lowly dominions.

I didn't say "God" I said "Yaweh".
a demon basically only in the "trickster" sense. most other qualities aside. He's not really necessarily all-powerful, all-knowing, or anything else. We are working from a premise that he merely claims such things, but what the underlying reality of his possible existance could be. an "evil God" is not really what I'm going for at all with the question. I don't pretent that Discordianism or Gnosticism or anything of such other believes in evil Gods are true, because if Yaweh was just an "evil God" it would be tough luck for us because he would define ultimate justice.

Really though, one will never find evidence that God is just a demon. Maybe one could make a weak argument that God is more like an evil supreme being, but not much more. Especially when one considers we know virtually nothing about God, if he/it even exists.

I was looking for evidence that Yaweh is not a demon. I don't want evidence that God is evil. An argument could be made that IT is evil because it allows evil. I'm looking for evidence that people who basically follow the Abrahamic line are not in reality being tricked by some very lucky, hard-working, tricky demon.

 

[Luminous]

First of all, while I have no problem presuming that God's existence is true, the word "literal" is a little unsettling, because it usually seems to imply an incredibly simplistic reading of Tanakh texts, which simply is not nor has ever been how Judaism reads its own sacred texts.

I edited the OP, but what sort of bad things does Yahweh not do or order that some people think he seems like it was believed he did?

Second of all, as always, it is worth noting that "Yahweh," much like "Jehovah" are not correct pronunciations of the tetragrammaton: they are errors resulting from the misunderstandings of translators ancient and modern. The correct pronunciation of the tetragrammaton simply is not known.

Lets say it's Yahweh, for now.

In any case, in regards to the OP query: What in the world would a demon gain by concerning itself with the justice of human society, and the better treatment of the downtrodden?

Worship, lots and lots of it. Playing with people here on earth. his fall from grace might be lightened by repentence and his evil instincts by what his founding religions cause. It would be a very good trick. mainly though, I am concerned with the evidence that it is not a demon... so refutations of evil that he seems to have caused, made, planned for, etc.

Demons are said to be unquenchably narcissistic in their behavior: that is, they care for no one's good but their own. But the majority of the commandments that God gave the Jewish People (some of which have been desultorily adopted by non-Jews) focus on trying to create a holier, more just, more ethical, and more focused on spiritual awareness and clarity-- the ultimate purposes of which, we are taught, is twofold: not only to become closer to God and more connected to Him, but also to increase our understanding of why a just society is necessary and to better motivate us toward tikkun olam (repair or perfecting of the world). But demons have no ethics. They have no morality. They are utterly disinterested in the good even of others of their kind, much less mortal creatures.

that would be in the Abrahamic context, I am talking about trickster beings in general which if smart would pretend to care about others in order to get worshiped and or pretend to be True God in order to attempt to establish a world in their vision. perhaps in establishing a male centered society in which God was called a "He" would be good enough for it. Because an argument I just thought of myself in which no one worships "Yahweh" but they attempt to True God, might show the failure of the trickster, unless it establish untrue Dogmas and customs and lead to bad things through pretending to be True God, and making us think we know True God's commandents and Ideals.

Demons are said to hunger for the opportunity to physicalize, to become creatures of flesh and blood, in order to indulge their base appetites. But God declares Himself to be without body and form, shuns even the idea of physicalizing Him, nor does He eat or drink or have any apparatus for sexuality. Rather, those commandments that have to do with the body, with physical appetites, with sexuality, are about us and our behaviors, not about God's behaviors. And they all have to do with trying to moderate those appetites (whereas demons are said to favor excess in indulgence) and to make their experience more spiritual and holy (whereas demons are said to revel in baseness and coarseness).

again, this creature might not care about base appetites except tricking. and if it has no sexuality why is is called a "He" and not an "It" there is no reason to call it a "He" unless it has the male sex. We are Speaking English after all, we have words for these attributes and lack thereof. a smart trickster would moderate in order to boss and have worshipers and trick others or trick later or as well.

Also, at least in Jewish demonology, demons acknowledge God as their creator and are bound by His name-- even Ashmodai King of Demons, who is said to have been the first of demons. There is no mention in any text of any demon who claims that God is a demon: and why would other demons not reveal such knowledge, especially when it is said that they distrust and compete with others of their own kind, and are said to delight in the causing of mischief, even-- if not especially-- against others of their kind?

Yes, this is from a Jewish perspective on the limit of supernatural beings, but there are other thoughts. I appreciate your perspective, ofcourse In the Jewish perspective there is no way Yaweh is a demon because it defines what a demon is and has defined itself as not one. But I just want some evidence that he is not tricking people into thinking he is God and into following rules and commands from him while thinking he is God.
having followers who do good things in order to have some that do bad things and to trick us.

I'm sorry, but the suggestion that God is some kind of demon is simply ridiculous

Please don't insult me and others who think such things are possible. but again, the question is about Yaweh and why he is not tricking humanity. God's evil would be a different question, Mostly to do with the Problem of Evil.
In this case, I just want some evidence that Yaweh is not tricking his worshipers and the people who follow his comandments and suggestions into thinking and doing things that simply are not true or right sometimes.


I do understand that this debate is a hard one and has many emotional and cultural attachments, I appreciate all the reasons that many people have given on why Yaweh is not a demon. But so far they are not good enough. I'll appreciate deeper elaboration philosophical or religious. Your arguments Levite are very understandable...for people who also share your other believes, but I don't. I'll need more showing of Yaweh's goodness, selflessness, helpfulness, etc and more rumor busting of Yaweh's badness, selfishness, indifference, etc.

 

[Luminous]

Human sacrifice.

I don't see where Yaweh has led to this. If is was a smart demon that didn't care about human sacrifice it would know that human sacrifice leads to less worshipers...unless you are talking about WAR and ABRAHAM's SON and the suggestion in the bible that it STOPED accepting human sacrafise (meaning it used to) and moved on to animal sacrafise.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

I don't see where Yaweh has led to this. If is was a smart demon that didn't care about human sacrifice it would know that human sacrifice leads to less worshipers...unless you are talking about WAR and ABRAHAM's SON and the suggestion in the bible that it STOPED accepting human sacrafise (meaning it used to) and moved on to animal sacrafise.

Yep the abraham thing.

But if you like we can let that one go, can you respond to the other crimes i have levelled at god?

 

[Luminous]

Yep the abraham thing.

But if you like we can let that one go, can you respond to the other crimes i have levelled at god?

No, I pretty much agreed with them: though they were leveled at Yaweh in the context of my thread. only the Problem of Evil can be levelled at True God.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Perhaps a list of the people god killed in the bible, backed up by scriptural references will further my point.

Dwindling In Unbelief: How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)

And just for comparison i believe satan only killed 10 and those were at the behest of god. That was in job i believe.

So let me ask you which is worse, the so called good god that has killed millions or the so called evil one who has killed 10?

And the big mean thing that satan did in the bible is he brought knowledge to human kind.

 

[Luminous]

And the big mean thing that satan did in the bible is he brought knowledge to human kind.

yes but he brought knowledge against Yaweh's wishes, and who knows what kind of knowledge that even was, could have been knowledge about how delicious of an aphrodisiac the fruit was. And in the original story it was The founder of the "Snake" kind. NOT Satan. that was a later interpretation. Snakes are cursed because of that anscestor just like we are cursed because of ours. What Satan supposedly did was start a war against Yaweh, im not sure the specific multiple religious explinations/views on the story. The snake was just trying to see what would happen if he/she ate from the forbiden trees...mainly the knowledge one. which apperantly granted humans the same knowledge the gods had...mainly agnosticism. some interpretations think the tree of knowledge gave us the judgeable soul.

 

[Levite]

The reason a demon would act like it created everything and do all those other things you are wondering about is ............ to trick humans into worshipping it and kill to and conquer for it's sake. Just a thought.

That just seems far too unreasonable a hypothesis to hold up: far, far too much un-demonlike behavior for nowhere near enough return. Demons are not said to particularly desire worship, but power for the purposes of tyranny and indulgence, and most often, ways to try and physicalize themselves into the material world. Jews have never had enough power to provide much in the way of tyranny and indulgence. And as for killing and conquering, historically speaking, the Jewish People have done far less killing and conquering, for any sake, than have other peoples and other religious groups. And God has never physicalized, nor claimed to be able to physicalize, or even claimed to desire physicalization.

 

[Pegg]

Though I agree demons might be unable to be good, following the common line of thought they are deceivers and can pretend to be good to acomplish an evil task. So since many bad things have come from the Abrahamic's general trend of thought, I think that Yaweh could easily be one of those supposedly fallen angels who is very good at tricking people.

you would need to ask what evil comes from practicing goodness though

The mosaic law was a law based on love. It outlawed things of the flesh and things that are contrary to nature. The demons on the other hand actually revel in things of the flesh and things contrary to nature....so a demon who is promoting the opposite of that would actually be working in the interests of God himself.

I'm sure there are plenty of demons (Native American and Egyptian and Chinese, Norse trickster gods etc) myths in which the demons don't care about blood at all, so couldn't one like those pretend to care so that it gains more worshipers and commits more hidden crimes? couldn't a demon pretend to care about sexual morality in order to gain worshipers? Also I have heard some arguments that Jews beleived Yaweh allowed female prostitution and lesbianism within females and since polygamy was allowed by Yaweh that a husband could have sex with more than one of them at a time.

the goal of the demons is to turn mankind against God and his perfect standards. They do this because they have apostatized from truth, justice and righteousness. They despise God and all that he stands for and work to thwart Gods purposes and will.
If a demon actually promoted any of the things that God likes, then he might find himself on the wrong side of a whole lot of other demons who would stop at nothing to put an end to his activity. There are wars among the spirits just as there are wars among mankind.
With regard to the prostitution...i really cant believe that. If you look at the hebrew scriptures you wont find accounts of God promoting such practices but rather putting a stop to them through denunciation, by famine, by plague and pestilence and by the hand of his righteous followers. There are plenty of examples of sexual immorality being carried out among the isrealites, but it was always due to rebellion and sever punishment was the result.