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Featured Why Would Noah's Flood Have Been the Best Way for God to Cleanse the Earth?

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by David Davidovich, Apr 11, 2022.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Simple for anyone to read what it says at www.jw.org
     
  2. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    I'd ask those "Christians" to point out where in the Bible any of God's creations were described to be "perfect".

    Thank you for the OP - I read it - but I still didn't see where the Bible claimed that any of God's creations were "perfect".
    If this concept were true - then God would be a villain - punishing people based on arbitrary standards.
    I believe that the desire to become like one's parents is instilled in all children.

    Eve had no Knowledge of Good and Evil - therefore she had no understanding of deception - so when she was told that her desire to become like God was risk-free - she saw no reason not to partake.
    I personally believe that the Adam and Eve story literally happened.
     
  3. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    Ok - I understand what you are trying to say here - but I believe it is patently false.

    The Hebrew word tamiym or tamim - which English interpreters often translated as "perfect" (like in Ezekiel 28) - does not mean some sort of ideal moral perfectionism.

    This same word - tamiym or tamim - was used several times in the Old Testament Genesis 6:8-9; 17:1, Exodus 12:5, Leviticus 1:3, 10; 3:1, 6, Deuteronomy 18:13, 2 Samuel 22:24, Psalms 15:2; 18:24, Proverbs 11:5, Job 12:4 - and it is used to describe something "wholesome", "sound", "complete", "without blemish", "just", "upright" or even "innocent".

    Adam and Eve fit this bill - but Noah was also described as being tamiym or tamim - and Abraham was commanded to be tamiym or tamim - and the animals chosen for sacrifice were described as being tamiym or tamim.

    In Ezekiel 28 God is proclaiming the ruin of the king of Tyre - how he had once been tamiym or tamim - and that time of his life was likened to being in Eden - but his iniquity caused him to lose those blessings.

    These verses have nothing to do with Satan - but there is a comparison made between the king of Tyre and the Fall of Man - the same parallel of having everything he wanted and losing it due to choices he made.

    Either way - the Hebrew word the English interpreters translated as "perfect" does not mean what you think it means.
     
  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    The King of Tyre was never in Eden and never an angel a cherub but Satan was - Ezekiel 28:13-15
     
  5. David Davidovich

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    Mexico
    At the same time that Witnesses were forbidden to hold a card in Malawi a comparable situation arose in Mexico, with the Governing Body ruling in the opposite direction for Mexican brothers. In Mexico, military service was compulsory for young men. On completion of service young men would receive a “Cartilla” card, which similar to the card in Malawi, was required for a transactions such as obtaining a passport and drivers license. Young Witness brothers experienced persecution and imprisonment for refusing their obligation to attend military service.

    [​IMG]
    Mexico Cartilla card cover


    [​IMG]
    Cartilla card insert


    In order to relieve this suffering, the Governing Body ruled that it was acceptable for Mexican brothers to bribe officials to obtain a government Cartilla card that exempted them from military service. This is discussed in the following letter to Mexico Branch Committee dated June 2, 1960.

    “As to those who are relieved of military training by a money transaction with the officials who are involved therewith, this is on par with what is done in other Latin American countries where brothers have paid for their relief through some military official in order to retain their freedom for theocratic activities. If members of the military establishment are willing to accept such an arrangement upon the payment of a fee then that is the responsibility of these representatives of the national organisation. In such a case the money paid does not go to the military establishment, but is appropriated by the individual who undertakes the arrangement. If the consciences of certain brothers allow them to enter into such an arrangement for their continued freedom we have no objection. Of course, if they would get into any difficulties over their course of action then they would have to shoulder such difficulties themselves, and we could not offer them any assistance. But if the arrangement is current down there and is recognized by the inspectors who do not make any inquiries into the veracity of the matter then the matter can be passed by for the accruing advantages. Should a military emergency arise and confront these brothers with their marching card it would oblige them to make a decision by which they could not extricate themselves by a money payment and their mettle would be tested and they would have to demonstrate outright where they stand and prove that they are in favor of Christian neutrality in a determined test.​

    Faithfully yours in the Kingdom ministry,​

    Watchtower B.&T. Society
    of Pensylvania
    It is interesting that for Mexico it could be justified that holding a governmental card through bribery is acceptable, since it allowed the brothers to continue in “theocratic activities”, yet obtaining a political card legally in Malawi was not acceptable even though it would have allowed the same freedoms.

    click here to read more from the article: The different standards applied to brothers in Malawi, Mexico and the Oath of allegiance (jwfacts.com)
     
  6. David Davidovich

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    Well, I'm guessing that you never asked yourself: What exactly what would Eve have thought that she would get out of doing that? And why would being her own goddess be so tempting to her? And even though this story provides answers as an origin faith origin story, it really doesn't make sense if you scrutinze it. However, unfortunately, apologists never scrutinize or question their beliefs, but they just take everything that is taught them or that they read in the Bible at face value. Therefore, it seems kind of useless to even be talking to you about this.

    So, what difference does that make? Because didn't she and all women who came after her get punished for what she did? :rolleyes:

    And that's the way the story goes. :rolleyes:
     
  7. David Davidovich

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    Quit posting your link and at least post quotes from your link. Because nobody wants to click on your link. :rolleyes: :unamused:
     
  8. David Davidovich

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    LOL:grinning: It looks like you didn't even read this part of my quote from the article:

    The Apostle Paul said that not every Christian would actively evangelise.

    Ephesians 4:11-12 "And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, for the building up of the body of the Christ ..."​

    Therefore, I'm now guessing that you're probably just here to count the amount of time that you are preaching to others, since Jehovah's Witnesses have to count, record, and turn in their preaching hours to their leaders. LOL :grinning: But if I had known that you were only interested in an echo chamber, then I never would have even tried to have a discussion with you. LOL :grinning:
     
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  9. David Davidovich

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    Well, it's quite simple... If I am known as an artist who created excellent art, then the art that I created would be excellent. And taking that a step further, if I am known as a supernatural deity who created perfect art, then the art that I created would be perfect... It's really not that hard.

    I'm not sure if you understood this, but not if it's supposed to be his prerogative to determine what is right and wrong in the universe.

    But is that what Genesis is trying to teach us with the A&E story?

    That's an interesting way to look at it, however, it doesn't sound as if you subscribe to traditional Christian religion.

    Do you mind if I ask you what particular faith you are?
     
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  10. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    That is where I am confused because I read the OP and nothing you shared claimed that God's creations were "perfect".

    I mean - you claimed that the things you shared said it - but I personally didn't see it anywhere.

    Could you point to a specific example of the scriptures claiming that God's creations are "perfect"?
    Correct - it is His Law that determines what is Good and Evil and it is our prerogative to learn and live by His Law.
    I believe that the Genesis account is a record of actual events that happened - so I do not believe that it is trying to "teach" us anything - but rather give an account of what happened.

    That is not to say that there is not a treasure trove of information and teachings there.
    I am indeed a Christian - but I do reject many things other Christians believe.

    I believe that traditions are only good when they are based on truth.

    I consider the "traditional" story of Adam and Eve - or at least how people interpret it - to be very wrong and not based in truth.

    For example - the idea that Adam and Eve "sinned" in the Garden - the Genesis account contradicts that assumption soundly.
    Don't take this the wrong way - because many people have asked - but I'm not going to divulge.

    I have found that when people learn what faith a person practices, they stop judging the ideas presented based solely on their reason and merit.

    People like to put other people into "boxes" and then judge the "box" rather than what the person is actually saying.

    I hope you are not disappointed.
     
  11. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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    Entering this conversation late, but the way I understand it is that God sets the standard for what's right or wrong, exemplified by the mandate to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So God directed Adam to do certain things. What do you conclude from this?
     
  12. David Davidovich

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    Sorry, but I already did so.

    So then why did you say: If this concept were true - then God would be a villain - punishing people based on arbitrary standards. :confused::confused::confused:

    So then how do you interpret it?

    So I guess you don't agree with what the apostle Paul says in the Christian Greek Scriptures (NT)?

    I don't agree with you on that. Because often times if someone is already familiar with a certain religion, then they can better understand where someone is coming from who practices a certain religion. Just like URAVIP2ME. Because I suspected that he was a Jehovah's Witness, but when he kept ignoring everything that someone else says and only wanted to preach his gospel (which, by the way, is a violation in a lot of forums), then I completey understood his mind set and where he was coming from. (Although, him admitting that he was a Jehovah's Witness helped when he kept referrring to their website.) :)
     
  13. David Davidovich

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    That's the common interpretation that I've seen among nearly all Christian groups that I am aware of.
     
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